5.4 Holy Paladin Concerns

90 Blood Elf Paladin
21745

I don't know in what world you would think that having HL generating HP on any target its cast on would not be even more overpowered.


I'll give you a hand, that world is patch 5.4. The spec needs some serious, heavy buffs to even put it anywhere close to disc/mw/druid in 5.4.

Baseline 4 second HS
A giant Divine Light buff to make this spell worth casting, increased strength or make it always give HP
Holy Light always gives HP with full transfer
Range increase on HR
Selfless Healer makes Judgement give HP, and the judgement procs a smart heal
Mop daybreak goes away and we get Cata Daybreak (double holy shocks)
A giant Light of Dawn buff to make this spell not awful.

These are the kinds of things we need to remain remotely competitive.
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1 Gnome Warlock
0
Until 5.3 nobody but Disc Priests were remotely competitive with you. Deal with it. Just because Blizzard has some ridiculously absurd love affair with Discipline going doesn't mean you can't get what you deserve. Does anyone even remember the last time Holy Paladins weren't one of the top 2 most desired healing classe? I can't. Feels good.

Also, the healer CD reduction trinkets are going to give HPallies insane raid utility.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
Shaman concerns need to be addressed before they even remotely consider major Holy Pally mechanic changes. You have been waiting a few weeks; most of the Shaman issues have been outstanding since the start of Cata. Get in line.
Edited by Tiberria on 6/29/2013 3:50 PM PDT
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90 Gnome Warrior
5090
Here's my take on all this. The way Blizzard has designed the new talent tree is that it's doing it's job correctly if you are debating which talent helps you the most. It however is not doing so if the player is asking themselves, "which talent hurts me the least".
Normally, the procedure goes like this. For any spec or build, there should be at least 2 talents that make the player debate with themselves. Obviously, with so many variables every patch including attribute scaling, boss mechanics, and new gear.... This is really hard to get just right.
But that's why we pay them. To do their jobs.

Here's my solution to one of the proposed reasons behind the nerf.
"Blizzard didn't intent for us to blanket EF at lower HP".
Here's the 5.3 EF specs:
"heals them for 5239 to 5837 (+ 49% of SpellPower) and an additional 508 (+ 5.85% of SpellPower) every 3 sec for 30 sec. Healing increased per charge of Holy Power."
Here's the solution,
"heals them for 4715 to 5253 (+34%=1 charge of SpellPower, +39%=2 charge of SpellPower, +44%=3 charge of SpellPower) and an additional 508 (+10% of SpellPower used for initial heal) every 3 sec for 30 sec. Healing increased per charge of Holy Power."
The end result? For 3 HP EFs, there is a 10% reduction in base heal, 10% reduction is sp scaling, and the HoT now scales it's SP bonus with the SP bonus used on the base heal. The same is done to 1 charge and 2 charges but a bit more severely. it's a 20% nerf to 2 HP and a 30% nerf to 1 HP(not the base heal, but it's scaling with SP).
To make this more interesting, with the SP nerf to EF, then a SP boost to SS would make them competitive again(assuming the make the 2 minute proc shorter). I think a 1 minute proc cd with the hp required raised to 35% would make it a bit more appealing. 35% is what is required to generate second wind for warriors so it seems logical. With a higher trigger health, and shorter cooldown, you would see it pop a lot more often in important situations.
If the main issue is not blanketing, but it's our dependence on EF and mastery as the standard issue picks, I have another solution. Along with the previous nerf, and that HoTs no longer generate absorption, simply increase the amount of ticks but for less, and add a major glyph that "Judgement now has a 25% chance to generate one Holy Power, But Crusader Strike no longer generates any". Then have Seal of Insight's spell haste apply to judgement.
Now with sanctity of Battle, Insight, and a glyph effecting judgement, Haste seems a lot more valuable. The final touch would be to, instead of having SS reduced to 1 minute, keep it at 2 and let it be reduced by haste.(with the health still being raised to 35%)
Note that I'm just rambling about a solution to a problem that may or may not even be the reason.
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90 Human Paladin
13040
Until 5.3 nobody but Disc Priests were remotely competitive with you. Deal with it. Just because Blizzard has some ridiculously absurd love affair with Discipline going doesn't mean you can't get what you deserve. Does anyone even remember the last time Holy Paladins weren't one of the top 2 most desired healing classe? I can't. Feels good.

Also, the healer CD reduction trinkets are going to give HPallies insane raid utility.


You really need to get a therapist. Your level of bitterness over a video game is beyond absurd.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
21745
Until 5.3 nobody but Disc Priests were remotely competitive with you. Deal with it. Just because Blizzard has some ridiculously absurd love affair with Discipline going doesn't mean you can't get what you deserve. Does anyone even remember the last time Holy Paladins weren't one of the top 2 most desired healing classe? I can't. Feels good.

Also, the healer CD reduction trinkets are going to give HPallies insane raid utility.


I guess you didn't play when monks were insane? Actually this whole post is insane, can you stop being bitter and enjoy the massive buffs you are getting in 5.4? I know you love posting on a level 1 like a terrified child but this is your main http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/malganis/%C3%84ndr%C3%B6med%C3%A4/advanced. Also if you think that trinket gives us "insane raid utility" you are really high right now, please compare it to monk/priest and get back to me.

Shaman concerns need to be addressed before they even remotely consider major Holy Pally mechanic changes. You have been waiting a few weeks; most of the Shaman issues have been outstanding since the start of Cata. Get in line.


This is a paladin issue thread, write bad posts about shamans somewhere else. There is no "line" or "fix my class queue".
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90 Gnome Monk
16505
Here's my solution to one of the proposed reasons behind the nerf.
"Blizzard didn't intent for us to blanket EF at lower HP".


If the main issue is not blanketing, but it's our dependence on EF and mastery as the standard issue picks, I have another solution. Along with the previous nerf, and that HoTs no longer generate absorption, simply increase the amount of ticks but for less


Personally I think many paladins use the eternal flame blanketing technique as a way to manually prolong their mastery bubbles, without wasting the mana cost spells. Paladin heals are balanced around beacon, mastery, and holy power free heals, so the actual mana heals cost 10-50% more than any other healer. However, we are already blowing mana on holy radiance to achieve maximum mana vs hopo vs ef blanketing efficiency, so there needs to be some changes to the paladin healing rotation as well.

Mop daybreak goes away and we get Cata Daybreak (double holy shocks)


I miss that so much... It used to be fun to pvp in cata as a holy paladin.
In mop, i had to reroll to monk in order to not be so free to ccs and focus bursts on my paladin.
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90 Gnome Warrior
5090
Here's my solution to one of the proposed reasons behind the nerf.
"Blizzard didn't intent for us to blanket EF at lower HP".


If the main issue is not blanketing, but it's our dependence on EF and mastery as the standard issue picks, I have another solution. Along with the previous nerf, and that HoTs no longer generate absorption, simply increase the amount of ticks but for less


Personally I think many paladins use the eternal flame blanketing technique as a way to manually prolong their mastery bubbles, without wasting the mana cost spells. Paladin heals are balanced around beacon, mastery, and holy power free heals, so the actual mana heals cost 10-50% more than any other healer. However, we are already blowing mana on holy radiance to achieve maximum mana vs hopo vs ef blanketing efficiency, so there needs to be some changes to the paladin healing rotation as well.


I mentioned holy power generation
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13440
This

Baseline 4 second HS
A giant Divine Light buff to make this spell worth casting, increased strength or make it always give HP
Holy Light always gives HP with full transfer
Range increase on HR
Selfless Healer makes Judgement give HP, and the judgement procs a smart heal
Mop daybreak goes away and we get Cata Daybreak (double holy shocks)
A giant Light of Dawn buff to make this spell not awful.

These are the kinds of things we need to remain remotely competitive.
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90 Human Paladin
12940
They have already tried Holy Light generating HP whenever it was cast on the Beacon target through Tower of Radiance at the start of Cata. It proved to be completely overpowered and Paladins were all basically spamming HL-HL-HL-LOD non stop. This was before the HL Beacon transfer was increased to 100% as well. If it was overpowered for HL cast on the Beacon target to generate HP, I don't know in what world you would think that having HL generating HP on any target its cast on would not be even more overpowered. There is no way they will put that through after how big of a problem it was the first time.


Many Holy Paladins at the time complained that the nerf to Tower of Radiance wasn't warranted and that Light of Dawn was the main issue. People tend to forget that Light of Dawn was also nerfed in the same hotfix by a whopping 50-60%.

Holy Light generating Holy Power would be fine as long as the 100% Beacon transfer is removed.

Shaman concerns need to be addressed before they even remotely consider major Holy Pally mechanic changes. You have been waiting a few weeks; most of the Shaman issues have been outstanding since the start of Cata. Get in line.


Blizzard isn't comprised of two people. They are very capable of fixing Restoration Shaman issues alongside Holy Paladin issues without sacrificing attention or quality in their work. Please leave Shaman issues in the Shaman threads, thank you.
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90 Human Paladin
12940
Baseline 4 second HS
A giant Divine Light buff to make this spell worth casting, increased strength or make it always give HP
Holy Light always gives HP with full transfer
Range increase on HR
Selfless Healer makes Judgement give HP, and the judgement procs a smart heal
Mop daybreak goes away and we get Cata Daybreak (double holy shocks)
A giant Light of Dawn buff to make this spell not awful.


I'm not a big fan of a baseline 4 second cooldown on Holy Shock. Holy Paladins do need better Holy Power generation, but it can be done through making Holy Light, Divine Light and Flash of Light generating Holy Power when cast. If Holy Shock is to have a reduced cooldown, it should be done through Sanctity of Battle and Haste scaling.

I feel Holy Radiance wouldn't need an increase in radius if our three single target casted heals were viable to cast as alternatives in spread damage situations. This could very much be alleviated by, once again, allowing HL/DL/FL to generate Holy Power.

Selfless Healer smart heal sounds decent, but I don't know about Judgment granting Holy Power.

Although I liked the old Daybreak mechanic, I feel it wouldn't fit in a world where Holy Shock's cooldown were lower than it is today, whether it being reduced to 4 seconds or being reduced by Haste via Sanctity of Battle.

Light of Dawn could use a mechanical buff alongside a throughput buff. Allow Light of Dawn to be cast on a friendly target within 40 yards, healing that target and up to 5 of the most injured targets within 30 yards for blankety-blank.
Edited by Areos on 6/29/2013 7:50 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
06/29/2013 07:44 PMPosted by Areos
They have already tried Holy Light generating HP whenever it was cast on the Beacon target through Tower of Radiance at the start of Cata. It proved to be completely overpowered and Paladins were all basically spamming HL-HL-HL-LOD non stop. This was before the HL Beacon transfer was increased to 100% as well. If it was overpowered for HL cast on the Beacon target to generate HP, I don't know in what world you would think that having HL generating HP on any target its cast on would not be even more overpowered. There is no way they will put that through after how big of a problem it was the first time.


Many Holy Paladins at the time complained that the nerf to Tower of Radiance wasn't warranted and that Light of Dawn was the main issue. People tend to forget that Light of Dawn was also nerfed in the same hotfix by a whopping 50-60%.

Holy Light generating Holy Power would be fine as long as the 100% Beacon transfer is removed.



No it would not be fine given that they already tried it back in 4.0, before Holy Light was 100% Beacon transfer and it was completely overpowered. What you are asking for is also for it to be superior to how it was in 4.0, because in 4.0, it only gave a HP when used on the Beacon target. If they make it give a HP no matter what, you will get the HP AND 150% of the output of Holy Light. If 100% of the output of HL (had to be cast on the Beacon) and HP was overpowered, 150% will be.
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90 Human Paladin
15170
The drama in my book is not about the numbers it is more about the clunky style of healing we have been led into, forcing us to only use very few of our other heals. Constantly just using HR just to generate HoPo to blanket EF has been found to be the most effective way to heal and deal out the numbers required to heal in 5.3

Using an expensive AoE heal spell (HR) all the time just cause we need extra EF all the time on all the raid members is stupid and obviously not the intended idea hence Blizzard nerfing how EF works.

I am all for this Nerf to EF and how it works with IH to stop this practice cause it takes away the use of all our other healing spells. The problem is still going to be how to generate HoPo to keep it a viable healing source since all our spells are more expensive than other Healing classes (which is fine if we can generate HoPo).

At the way it is currently we have to just heal our BoL target with normal spells like FL or DL to gain HoPo (a massive loss in Healing output due to loss of beacon transfer) or cast HR (an AoE that has an expensive cost with low HPS unless everyone is stacked because of its small range of effectiveness) or HS (a 6 sec CD, cause we only heal other people in the raid every 6 sec and never twice in a row before going back to our BoL target... /sarcasm).

I feel there needs to be a new ballance between mana cost of spells to make haste a viable stat to reduce the cast time of our normal spells or an increase in HoPo generation through other heals to increase the use of EF or WoG depending on tallent choice or LoD (which could use a slight buff). My choice being to make HL generating HoPo on anyone or at least a 66.6% chance to generate HoPo would at least give another spell some utility again instead of being abandoned.
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90 Human Priest
15585
Nowadays, any healing rotation that includes holy light is nowhere near viable. Stop fixating on 4.0. The situation now is nothing like it was then. It was overpowered then because it was GOOD throughput with EXCELLENT mana conservation. Today, mana doesn't matter, and good throughput won't be good enough.
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90 Human Paladin
12940
No it would not be fine given that they already tried it back in 4.0, before Holy Light was 100% Beacon transfer and it was completely overpowered. What you are asking for is also for it to be superior to how it was in 4.0, because in 4.0, it only gave a HP when used on the Beacon target. If they make it give a HP no matter what, you will get the HP AND 150% of the output of Holy Light. If 100% of the output of HL (had to be cast on the Beacon) and HP was overpowered, 150% will be.


You're ignoring the fact that they nerfed Light of Dawn by a whopping 50% of its healing in the same hotfix. Tower of Radiance was nerfed simply because Blizzard didn't like the fact that Paladins were healing the Beacon of Light directly on purpose in order to raid heal more effectively, which was a highly-debatable subject at that time due to the Holy Paladin's very questionable raid healing toolkit.

You're also forgetting that it's no longer 4.0. Holy Paladins have changed significantly since then, and so has the distribution of our healing output. With the nerfs we are receiving to Eternal Flame, Holy Paladins are going to lose a large amount of our throughput next patch, which must be compensated strongly both in throughput and mechanics if Holy Paladins want to remain viable. Holy Light granting Holy Power when cast, along with Divine Light and Flash of Light, are ways that Holy Paladins can alleviate one of their many major issues. (Holy Power generation)

Stop looking at the issue in regards to what happened in 4.0. It's no longer patch 4.0, it's 5.3 leading into 5.4, and I hope you have noticed that many things have changed regarding the Holy Paladin toolkit since then. Holy Light/Divine Light/Flash of Light granting Holy Power would not only be perfectly fine, but should've been done in Mists of Pandaria's beta instead of allowing this Eternal Flame fiasco to run amok for so long.
Edited by Areos on 6/29/2013 8:10 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
Baseline 4 second HS


I think haste should lower the cd on holy shock but I'm mixed with this being baseline.

Simply because it SERIOUSLY can GCD us during an AOE rotation. I'm not sure on 25 man but on 10 man a 4 second HS could be a hassle sometimes.

I would be fine with it overall though if they did put it baseline. HP generation certainly needs to be higher though.
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90 Human Paladin
12940
06/29/2013 08:49 PMPosted by Marathel
Baseline 4 second HS


I think haste should lower the cd on holy shock but I'm mixed with this being baseline.

Simply because it SERIOUSLY can GCD us during an AOE rotation. I'm not sure on 25 man but on 10 man a 4 second HS could be a hassle sometimes.

I would be fine with it overall though if they did put it baseline. HP generation certainly needs to be higher though.


My thoughts exactly. A four second Holy Shock cooldown-locks the spec and makes it unreasonable to attempt using a casted healing spell outside of Infusion of Light. I agree with Haste effects reducing its cooldown, but not a flat 2 second removal in cooldown.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
21745
We had 4 second holy shocks for 2 tiers and we worked just fine, thanks.
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90 Human Paladin
12940
We had 4 second holy shocks for 2 tiers and we worked just fine, thanks.


I don't consider Holy Shock > Eternal Flame > Awkward Pause > Holy Shock to be "fine" as a play style, but I guess my opinion is a dime a dozen.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
and we worked just fine, thanks.


Before the daybreak change and before this nerf?

Sure...

now its different though. Still too early to know what Blizzard will do but if the EF nerf stays then aoe healing will definitely change. At least in 10 man. Have no idea in 25 man.

Of course if they don't buff LOD though then we're probably screwed lol.
Edited by Marathel on 6/30/2013 12:52 AM PDT
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