5.4 Holy Paladin Concerns

90 Blood Elf Paladin
16645
It wasn't intended to nerf prot, when they discover that prot runs oom in 4 minutes they'll fix it, for prot. "Sorry we wiped guys, I was too oom to taunt".

The "buff" to plea in no way compensates the regen loss from SoI on certain encounters, I agree that it's nice to finally get rid of the healing pentalty, but it's not amazingly awesome, it was just long overdue. If you're smart the regen from SoI was quite substational on many encounters in ToT. Now I don't know all the 5.4 encounters, but I'm pretty damn sure there would've been chances for us to regen there too.

The change to SH is boring, and unless they change the actual mechanic from judgment I can't see anyone taking it. Now, if they'd maked judging itself somewhat beneficial sure. Give it a longer cd for holy, make it give mana back, make it so that we can judge our allies and put a healing spark that increases healing taken for 10 seconds, whatever (just throwing ideas around, thank god I'm not a dev :P). To spend the mana on judging to get one free Divine Light (not actually free since you had to spend mana to cast it) makes no sense unless there is some additional benefit.

They'd have to make changes to SS too, and here I don't know what to do. Have the target of your Sacred Shield somehow benefit more from our mastery? Unlikely since they don't seem to like our mastery >.< Or take the part from old style SS where it'd increase our FoL on them? I don't know. As things look now EF will still be the best, but the best will be pretty piss poor.
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90 Undead Mage
12680
Maybe they just wanted to discourage holy paladins from having to melee, and felt it wasnt a good design mechanic.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
Maybe they just wanted to discourage holy paladins from having to melee, and felt it wasnt a good design mechanic.


Which again like other changes would be fine if it wasn't just a straight nerf. I don't mind rebalancing, but continually taking things away while not doing anything in return is nerfing for the sake of nerfing, which they said was not their intent. Though it kind of seems it is.
Edited by Taelaus on 7/9/2013 4:29 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
15480
It does appear that this is a nerf to prot that spilled over to holy.


Per lore it was a direct nerf to Holy not intended on Prot.

mind=blown
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10895
100 * 0.7 = 70

70 * 1.43 = 100.1

They are just reverting it back to the previous ammount.


True, but initial hit doesn't need to be buffed as of right now. I'm already healing for 200k on the initial heal which is more than enough unless you are dealing with a tank that is about to die. IN most cases I only see this increase to give me more over-healing.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10895
Maybe they just wanted to discourage holy paladins from having to melee, and felt it wasnt a good design mechanic.


Spirit is pretty decent right now, but it was nice to be able to get a couple melee hits in so that we were able to generate a little mana when we were oom. It was rather difficult for most fights since Holy Pallys always have to stack with range instead of melee like we used to be able to do rather frequently.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10895
We will get changes, just chill for a bit until we get to the raid testing and they see numbers. They have said they don't think our output is too high (and is fine) so I think we'll end up just fine.

My guess is that the nerfs are hard to understand right now because we don't see the full picture of what they plan for us in 5.4. Only time will tell us :)

Let's be honest, who thought we wouldn't be changed at all. They said a month ago that they were going to look into absorb for 5.4.

I agree that the way to release nerfs and then don't justify them right away with what they have in mind for us is a bit unpleasant, but I guess that's just how blizzard work x_x


That really isn't my issue; I'm just upset that they are are saying our numbers are fine(even though our numbers are a 4-7% under par some other classes) but they are nerfing one of the main reasons why we are able to keep our numbers on par with other classes. If anything, they should have looked at the other two talent options that we have been neglecting. Making them a little more valuable to us during encounters and we may choose those over EF.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10895
As they currently stand I think all these nerfs will put us in a terrible spot. IH is such a massive chunk of what makes up our healing and to simply remove it from our EF ticks without giving us major compensation elsewhere is just jaw dropping. I don't feel the nerf to the initial EF heal was needed either.


Agreed. The initial heal wasn't needed. It will most likely just be over-healing on everyone except for maybe the tanks.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
Tier bonuses changes are welcomed. DF at 2 minutes and mastery buff to 4500 is definitely much better if still odd.

The 2P buff is better now. But I wonder if they saw how much this buffs crit. They could make IOL proc from another spell but it might make the bonus clunky then.
Edited by Marathel on 7/9/2013 11:27 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9880
But I wonder if they saw how much this buffs crit


The new piece is about a 1% healing increase. This is with current no crit mastery builds having around a 40% holy shock crit chance(15% base crit +25% hs crit bonus). If you are swayed into a crit build based on that go for it. I'll just sit back and lol. If you can manage to get another 40% crit from gems reforgings thats a whole 1% more from the 2 piece go for it.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
17770
Any bonus (or ability, for that matter) that requires a crit of a non-spammable ability is garbage. Increasing the size of that bonus to 25% doesn't make it good. It's still garbage.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
The new piece is about a 1% healing increase. This is with current no crit mastery builds having around a 40% holy shock crit chance(15% base crit +25% hs crit bonus). If you are swayed into a crit build based on that go for it. I'll just sit back and lol. If you can manage to get another 40% crit from gems reforgings thats a whole 1% more from the 2 piece go for it.


As opposed to what we have in 5.4? Haste's value is significantly less in the PTR than right now because of the EF changes.

Mastery also got sucker punched too but it's still more useful than haste certainly. Crit comes out the clear winner by doing nothing which is honestly a bit funny and pathetic. Both crit and mastery will be our best stats though the playstyle will likely have to change.

Also 1 percent increased healing should be considered an average. In some fights it should be a bit higher. Honestly if they make IOL proc from holy light or Divine Light with a good chance it would make the bonus better.

To be honest I'm glad its something like this then another stupid bonus like to daybreak or decrease in HR's mana cost. Whoopee? But yeah it could still use improvement. I still cringe thinking about MW monk's 2 piece versus ours this tier for example.

Yeah we had terrible 2p's compared to the rest of the other healers this entire expansion. So I'm not optimistic we're going to get something much better than this. The 4p at least is better. Still not as amazing by far as some. Shamans get another mini ascendance, monks get a pretty good throughput boost...It was also just an observation.
Edited by Marathel on 7/10/2013 9:51 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11870
The new piece is about a 1% healing increase. This is with current no crit mastery builds having around a 40% holy shock crit chance(15% base crit +25% hs crit bonus). If you are swayed into a crit build based on that go for it. I'll just sit back and lol. If you can manage to get another 40% crit from gems reforgings thats a whole 1% more from the 2 piece go for it.

As opposed to what we have in 5.4?


Agreed. 50% on Daybreak was really laughable and our 4 piece just wasn't even worth going for. Even for a crit build, the T16 2 pc looks to be only a 2-3% increase on average and purely RNG and not significantly different from a mastery build. Which isn't very remarkable especially when you compare it to what other classes have.

The 4 pc initially seems nice, but I'm no theorycrafter. I currently run 58% Holy Shock Crit in my crit/mastery build, raid buffed. So 78% crit chance and 42% mastery (est.) every 2 mins seems nice. It seems like my Crit/mastery build would be pretty balanced between pure crit builds and pure mastery builds but that requires testing that I"m just not qualified to do.
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100 Human Paladin
14350
GC Tweet (https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/355422149588164609):

"Going to try DP scaling with Spirit. GoAK with AE heals. Maybe buff to WoG, EF, LoD."

Super glad that you guys are going to try Divine Plea scaling with spirit, as every other healer has and I'm quite glad that we no longer have to worry about balancing our regen around SoI mana procs.

Not sure what is meant by "GoAK with AE heals" though? But I'm feeling a bit more optimistic.

For some clarification on this, here's the patch notes for Divine Plea and Holy's Guardian of Ancient Kings in the next PTR build:

  • Guardian of the Ancient Kings (Holy version) has been redesigned. The ability is no longer limited to the next 5 single-target heals, and deals additional healing based on all healing spells cast by the Paladin for its duration. The ability also increases the Paladin's haste by 10% while it's active. However, the duration of the ability has been reduced to 15 seconds (down from 30 seconds).
  • Divine Plea no longer reduces the amount of healing done by 50%, and now restores 135% of the Paladin's Spirit as mana every 3 seconds for 9 seconds. The total amount of mana restored will always be at least 12% of the Paladin's total mana.


As per usual, anything is subject to change :)


From the PTR discussion thread: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9344634569?page=32#625
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
Great DP change. Once Guardian numbers come in in how much it copies and if the cooldown is lowered to 3 minutes it will be probably end up being a great burst cooldown for aoe healing.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
18410
Maybe they just wanted to discourage holy paladins from having to melee, and felt it wasnt a good design mechanic.

I think they removed it because some raid healers were able to get quite a bit of mana back from it and it was making it hard to balance encounters. I always thought this returned a very small amount of mana, at best, but I guess in the hands of very skilled holy paladins this was quite effective.

But this is quite a momentous change. Holy paladins have been meleeing to get mana back since - Vanilla? Now it will gone.

The change to SH is boring, and unless they change the actual mechanic from judgment I can't see anyone taking it.

I've never understood the point of Selfless Healer. Why would any paladin healer take it (or tank for that matter, or ret paladin even outside of pvp). But if they made it so judgements healed nearby targets then it might be worthwhile.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
I think they removed it because some raid healers were able to get quite a bit of mana back from it and it was making it hard to balance encounters. I always thought this returned a very small amount of mana, at best, but I guess in the hands of very skilled holy paladins this was quite effective.


Currently monks, disc priests don't even use mana nor have they since 2/3 of the way through 5.1. It returned significant mana 150k+ on a few fights in ToT. I really can't think of a single reason why they would have nerfed it. They said that holy paladins were complaining about it yet I never saw a single example of it.

But if they made it so judgements healed nearby targets then it might be worthwhile.


Would be the only way they could make it semi attractive. Would be like the T5 set bonus.

Not going to get my hopes up yet on random "We are thinking, We are going to try" thoughts. Whole implementation of these changes was poor at best.
Edited by Taelaus on 7/12/2013 4:37 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
23150
But if they made it so judgements healed nearby targets then it might be worthwhile.


Rotationally, judgement just enforces bad habits since its on a cd unlike smite for a priest. Even adding a smart heal to it just doesn't feel very paladin. Doing damage to generate healing just isn't part of a kit that makes sense for the class.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
SH giving HP with judgement would make the talent very much stronger and give it an unique playstyle some will want.

Yet at this point I would not make it compete with EF. Just make it baseline, keep WOG at the side for PVP's sake too or PVE's that matter. Give your changes to SS and give us a new talent.

Or DP baseline.

I think EF is a lot like HTT. And having a baseline hot would be nice. Every class has one but us.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16645
It returned significant mana 150k+ on a few fights in ToT. I really can't think of a single reason why they would have nerfed it. They said that holy paladins were complaining about it yet I never saw a single example of it.


The complaint isn't that we can get mana from it, the complaint is that on some encounters we can't, and that differance in encounter design makes it hard to balance holy paladins regen. If I can get 150k mana back on one fight, in addition to plea, passive regen, trinket procs, etc, that makes a big differance when comparing to a fight where I since I'm considered range can't be in melee and thereby "lose" 150k mana.

Rotationally, judgement just enforces bad habits since its on a cd unlike smite for a priest. Even adding a smart heal to it just doesn't feel very paladin. Doing damage to generate healing just isn't part of a kit that makes sense for the class.


Well, we did used to judge to get mana back :P Now, I know that especially during healing intensive periods it's sucked spending gcd's on judgement, but it's not something that would be that strange or weird for the spec. I agree that adding atonement like heals to it would just be meh though. I am not interested in all healing specs working the same or having spells that work the exact same way with different names. What I mean is that unless they give judgement something other than a "free" DL/FoL after 3 stacks there is absolutely no reason to take it even with the nerf to EF.
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