5.4 Holy Paladin Concerns

90 Blood Elf Paladin
5210
Has anyone mentioned this addition?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/10158897/54_PTR_Patch_Notes_-_July_12-7_12_2013#paladin

Holy

Mastery: Illuminated Healing no longer activates from periodic healing effects.
Divine Plea no longer reduces the amount of healing done, and now restores mana based on the Paladin’s Spirit.
Guardian of the Ancient Kings (Holy version) now deals additional healing based on any heal cast by the Paladin for the 15 seconds for the duration of the spell. The Paladin also has 10% additional haste for the duration that the ability is active.
Holy Insight now increases the effectiveness of Eternal Flame, Light of Dawn, and Word of Glory by 35%. Effectiveness of other heals are still increased by 25%.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
Yeah...it's a good buff to LOD but it needs another of similar size for it to be good in 10 man and 25 man along with a target cap increase in 25 man.

The EF I assume buffs the initial and hot portion or at least the hot portion. It's a buff that puts it closer to the strength of rejuv. Still without it doing mastery on the hot part it's still not as good as before and overhealing on the hot part will drastically increase.

WOG buff it's buff. Not much else lol.
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90 Human Paladin
10655
Possibly coming back. It looks like a lot of nerf/buff. Anything in particular I should worry about? Playstyle changes?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
It's still a nerf right now compared to where we are on live but it's far better than compared to the PTR.

Mastery and crit are pretty good by pretty much doing nothing but haste's value plummeted with the changes to EF. The buff to the hot part is still not enough to make it equal. Especially that tat SS and SH haven't been changed yet.

Only playstyle changes I see so far is that EF will really be a hot. If they buff LOD a little bit more then we can finally kiss using EF over LOD goodbye. And if they increase the cap in 25 man.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
It's a terrible idea to do target cap increases for 25 man on rotational spells, especially ones with no cooldown. It was a terrible idea to do it with Tranq/DH/Revival, and it's a terrible trend in general.

It was somewhat acceptable for Healing Rain because
(1) Shaman are balanced around a "stacked healer niche" that the developers won't let go of, and their non stacked healing tools are balanced around that as well (as in - terrible)
(2) Shaman were performing at the bottom even in their niche throughout 5.3 when the design intent is that we are clearly the best stacked healer to compensate for weakness out of that niche. Because they don't want to drop the niche thing, they had to significantly buff Shaman stacked healing.

They had 3 options really
(1) Significantly nerf the stacked AoE capabilities of every other spec. Screwing with 5 other specs because Shaman design was messed up wasn't really a palatable option
(2) Increase the base healing of Healing Rain (i.e. leave the cap at 6 but increase the amount it heals per target up to 6). The problem with that is - HR is already higher HPM on 2 targets than anything else in our toolkit. If you buff it much more, it becomes worth using as a single target "HoT", which is illogical for the design of the spell.
(3) Increase the target cap like they did

For now, the HR target cap thing is a good solution, because it (1) ensures Shaman dominate stacked healing (2) doesn't really have much impact on healing outside of that stacked niche.

They absolutely should not use that as a precedent to buff the target cap of every AoE spell in 25 man - it was a band-aid fix to fix a specific problem. At minimum, Holy Radiance would need to have a 10 second CD added (with the healing buffed correspondingly) if you want the target cap increased. There is no way you can target cap increase a spell that can hit the entire raid with no CD that applies absorb shields - all that will do is further cause balance problems and just replace the EF absorb spamming problem with another problem.
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90 Human Paladin
10655
07/12/2013 03:51 PMPosted by Marathel
Mastery and crit are pretty good by pretty much doing nothing but haste's value plummeted with the changes to EF. The buff to the hot part is still not enough to make it equal. Especially that tat SS and SH haven't been changed yet.

I must be missing the change to EF, minus the fact that it doesn't apply mastery anymore. And I don't really see how that would affect haste rather than mastery.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
They absolutely should not use that as a precedent to buff the target cap of every AoE spell in 25 man - it was a band-aid fix to fix a specific problem. At minimum, Holy Radiance would need to have a 10 second CD added (with the healing buffed correspondingly) if you want the target cap increased. There is no way you can target cap increase a spell that can hit the entire raid with no CD that applies absorb shields - all that will do is further cause balance problems and just replace the EF absorb spamming problem with another problem.


It would be for LOD not HR which makes far more sense.
Edited by Marathel on 7/12/2013 3:59 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
I must be missing the change to EF, minus the fact that it doesn't apply mastery anymore. And I don't really see how that would affect haste rather than mastery.


Some went for the haste build because too make our spells 2 seconds baseline with 5 percent haste buff or lower and to add the extra EF ticks.

I honestly do not see the extra EF ticks being worth stacking more haste than the initial 3kish cap because now that it won't refresh or give mastery then a lot of it has the potential to do significant more overhealing.
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90 Human Paladin
10655
I honestly do not see the extra EF ticks being worth stacking more haste than the initial 3kish cap because now that it won't refresh or give mastery then a lot of it has the potential to do significant more overhealing.

For sure fair.

What are healing %'s at now that EF isn't constantly refreshing IH?
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
07/12/2013 03:57 PMPosted by Marathel
They absolutely should not use that as a precedent to buff the target cap of every AoE spell in 25 man - it was a band-aid fix to fix a specific problem. At minimum, Holy Radiance would need to have a 10 second CD added (with the healing buffed correspondingly) if you want the target cap increased. There is no way you can target cap increase a spell that can hit the entire raid with no CD that applies absorb shields - all that will do is further cause balance problems and just replace the EF absorb spamming problem with another problem.


It would be for LOD not HR which makes far more sense.


If you do that, then people will cry for the same treatment to be given to Wild Growth, Circle of Healing, etc because LoD functionally fills the same role as those spells. It's just a slippery slope - rotational spells should not scale to raid size. I don't even really like cooldowns scaling.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
It's quite a bit lower. The nerf affected IH healing, how much EF even heals and it even affects beacon healing indirectly.

Worst part of it all it gutted haste's value and it was a moderate tap nerf to crit and mastery but not nearly as much as haste. With the buff to EF it's not as bad anymore but I still highly doubt it's equal still. Far from it.

While there has been good changes it's still not there yet and Blizzard hopefully introduces more changes. Have to see what the new SS will be and if they bake judgement giving HP to Selfless Healer.

Which would be interesting despite me wanting EF and DP baseline. Or at least one of these. Fights with consistent damage like Garalon for example it would be worth a try keeping EF and seeing how it goes. Especially if they help our HP generation. In fights with bigger bursts of damage but not consistently SH might as well shine if they bake judgement in to give HP. Lot's still needs to happen though.
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90 Human Paladin
10655
Maybe Selfless will be best now?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
If you do that, then people will cry for the same treatment to be given to Wild Growth, Circle of Healing, etc because LoD functionally fills the same role as those spells. It's just a slippery slope - rotational spells should not scale to raid size. I don't even really like cooldowns scaling.


Not really. LOD costs significantly more to cast than any of those spells and WG is a hot. Paladins need a cap increase for HR or LOD. It has to happen in 25 man. I wouldn't be saying this if the Tranq, Revival, HTT and all those changes didn't happen but they did. We are the only class now without any cap increase in 25 man(except for mw monks but they don't look like they need it do they? Not sure)

On average LOD costs 27k mana if you use only CS. 29 thousandish if you use only holy shock with a massive gap of 18 seconds.

OR if you use TOR or HR the mana cost it's significantly more than any other aoe filler in the game right now. And unlike HR it's not spammable not that HR is spammable without OOming yourself but hey. You're exerting considerable mana to cast LOD. Plus the spell should edge over EF. Having a single target ability be better than our aoe filter is ridiculous. If the other healers want similar treatments they can ask for it to be sure but with all these changes one has to change in 25 man. The EF nerf hits 25 man hard because they used it over LOD. Period.
Edited by Marathel on 7/12/2013 4:13 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
Maybe Selfless will be best now?


If judgement gives holy power which they say they might do it would be a strong choice certainly I would say.

In spread out fights where damage is higher but inconsistent having a super powered DL on the go and faster HP generation would be pretty big. IF they do not do it though I would go back and ask for EF to be baseline.
Edited by Marathel on 7/12/2013 4:12 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
10655
How is DL synergizing with IoL and the new SH? Just makes it even quicker?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
And it increases it's healing by 20 percent up to 60 percent. So one judgement reduces the cast time, increases the healing effectiveness and reduces the mana cost.

So for paladins with our gear seeing 300k plus DL's it's possible. The change made it "good" but it still wouldn't compete with EF. If they bake judgement giving one hp though...it would be a far better talent and one that would entice some to a specific playstyle. And judgement is pretty cheap.

And having a very powerful just about instant DL ready to use whenever you want it will have its uses.
Edited by Marathel on 7/12/2013 4:16 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
10655
I wonder if they could make it apply to HR too without it being IMBA.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
07/12/2013 04:09 PMPosted by Marathel
If you do that, then people will cry for the same treatment to be given to Wild Growth, Circle of Healing, etc because LoD functionally fills the same role as those spells. It's just a slippery slope - rotational spells should not scale to raid size. I don't even really like cooldowns scaling.


Not really. LOD costs significantly more to cast than any of those spells and WG is a hot. Paladins need a cap increase for HR or LOD. It has to happen in 25 man. I wouldn't be saying this if the Tranq, Revival, HTT and all those changes didn't happen but they did. We are the only class now without any cap increase in 25 man(except for mw monks but they don't look like they need it do they? Not sure)

On average LOD costs 27k mana if you use only CS. 29 thousandish if you use only holy shock with a massive gap of 18 seconds.

OR if you use TOR or HR the mana cost it's significantly more than any other aoe filler in the game right now. And unlike HR it's not spammable not that HR is spammable without OOming yourself but hey. You're exerting considerable mana to cast LOD. Plus the spell should edge over EF. Having a single target ability be better than our aoe filter is ridiculous. If the other healers want similar treatments they can ask for it to be sure but with all these changes one has to change in 25 man. The EF nerf hits 25 man hard because they used it over LOD. Period.


You can not add together the mana cost of the HP builders and call that the mana cost of LoD - you would be casting HS on CD regardless, and it does a reasonable amount of HPS/HPM for it's mana cost as a standalone spell. If you want to say LoD costs more mana than CoH/WG, you also need to add the healing done by the 3 HS to get to that 3 HP to the healing done by LOD, which means it also does more healing than either of those.

Tranq, Revival and HTT are raid cooldowns. Just because those scale to 25 man is not justification to also scale rotational abilities. Any buff to compensate for the Tranq/HTT/Revival CD scaling belongs on Devo Aura.
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90 Troll Druid
10000
You can not add together the mana cost of the HP builders and call that the mana cost of LoD - you would be casting HS on CD regardless, and it does a reasonable amount of HPS/HPM for it's mana cost as a standalone spell. If you want to say LoD costs more mana than CoH/WG, you also need to add the healing done by the 3 HS to get to that 3 HP to the healing done by LOD, which means it also does more healing than either of those.


If you add the 3 HS, you also have to add those 3 additional GCDs in and factor in what the druid/priest could do with that amount of time.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
You can not add together the mana cost of the HP builders and call that the mana cost of LoD - you would be casting HS on CD regardless, and it does a reasonable amount of HPS/HPM for it's mana cost as a standalone spell. If you want to say LoD costs more mana than CoH/WG, you also need to add the healing done by the 3 HS to get to that 3 HP to the healing done by LOD, which means it also does more healing than either of those.

Tranq, Revival and HTT are raid cooldowns. Just because those scale to 25 man is not justification to also scale rotational abilities. Any buff to compensate for the Tranq/HTT/Revival CD scaling belongs on Devo Aura.


Beacon is massive overhealing and holy shocks are usually high on it too. So a lot of that extra healing goes too waste. Even the IH shield goes too waste too many times. Because you have to cast HS regardless in almost every situation on cooldown. Not too mention the GCD's that you wasted hitting CS, Holy Shock and whatever else you do. The druid and priest could have hit even more buttons during that time.

And right now while HR is more or less on a good place LOD needs to change. It does atrocious healing in 25 man and again our aoe filler should not be edged out by a single target HOT. I really doubt they should change Devo Aura. Paladins have the strongest or pretty close too the strongest personal survival cooldowns. Increasing the duration of Devo Aura would have to be significant and increase it's magical reduction would be very dangerous.

Not to mention it's a 3 minute cooldown that would depend on the fight even if it was useful or not. I'm not saying we need to be the best at stacked healing because that is you guys but we need to be competent. In 10 man LOD is fine with its cap. Without EF on the picture aoe rotation has LOD as the "supposed" finisher if it wasn't so weak.
Edited by Marathel on 7/12/2013 4:31 PM PDT
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