5.4 Holy Paladin Concerns

90 Human Paladin
15450
06/20/2013 06:35 PMPosted by Korghal
Mastery not benefiting from Execution Sentence or Light’s Hammer isn’t intended and probably just got caught in the change to make Eternal Flame’s heal-over-time not benefit with mastery. We will correct that.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9344634569#2


That still guts our spread raid healing ability by quite a bit. Although SH affecting DL is probably worth the nerf.
Edited by Rasul on 6/20/2013 6:56 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18345
I want to cry a river, but I know Blizzard is hard-headed and doesn't listen on matters like this. Sometimes I just want to have faith in them, and assume they know what is right more so than myself, but Blizzard isn't always right... not even close, actually. They make so many bad changes. For example, it was pretty obvious to me from the second I saw the T14 set bonuses that they were OP, especially 2 seconds off HS. Duh... how did they fail to realize that. HS affects so much... more absorbs, more beacon healing, getting more EFs out, infusion of light procs, day break, etc. Yea, Blizzard somehow didn't think 2 seconds off HS would be OP. So how can we trust them?

I honestly just want to know what is going through their head... they'd probably think it's ignorant to say, but I really do wonder if some of those people even play this game? Or maybe they think Paladins have been good for long enough? Or do they actually think these are good changes that will make Paladins competitive with other healers and fun to play? That all seems absurd
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15650
Did they hire a monkey this expac to balance healers? I honestly don't understand why they nerf us, when for the first time in forever we're middle of the pack healers which is fine, and they buff disc priest's to be even more top healers than they already are now.

I... I just... wow.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
There is a blue post in the ptr forums that might be the silliest thing I have ever read from a blue.

Basically they failed at making decent choices in the tier for holy paladins so instead of making the other two attractive they gut the third.

blown away.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15080
Just chiming in to this thread in the hopes Blizzard gives us some serious review this Patch. If the changes go live, they've officially gutted the class and made it absolutely useless. We are already a clunky class that relies on overhealing and a ridiculous strategy to make our heals useful, and now we will lose our primary healing with nothing to compensate for it. I'm going to be discussing the issue with guild healing officers tonight and see if I'm going to reroll, because if these changes go live there's no point bringing a Holy Pally to the raid.It's going to piss me off if I have to reroll again because it will be the second time I've had to do that this expansion. I started out as a Monk, since my old guild didn't have a Monk healer assigned and we had an abundance of Shaman. Patch 5.1 hit and absolutely obliterated Monks in 10-man raiding so I went to Holy Pally, again to fill the guild's needs. If we get these nerfs and I have to reroll again, I don't know what to say. So sick of this carrot-and-stick rerolling game that Blizzard likes to play. They brought Pallies in line with the changes last patch. I can't even beat Holy Priests and Resto Druids on the meters anymore, not to mention their superior utility. Blizzard, here's some advice on how to handle healing classes: Stop making it into a numbers game. Healers don't care about making bigger numbers, they care about being useful. Give each healing class a specific niche to succeed in (like you did in BC) and everything will be fine in the world. It's okay to want all healers to be decent at everything, but stop trying to make every healer the best healer. It's never going to work, and with healers being so critical to raid progress, it leads to healers constantly reevaluating their value to the raid and whether even being in the raid is going to set back progress. Also, for the love of God, stop nerfing us mid-expansion. Small number changes to keep each class in line, but stop changing healing mechanics and rotations in the middle of expansions. Big changes should be reserved for pre-expansion patches, so that we who raid Heroic modes have time to adjust and level up new healers, if it's deemed necessary.


Ixila,
Not that it matters to you, it's just my thing, but I don't really care for "fair weather" players. Playing the class you enjoy through nerfs and buffs, especially nerfs, requires dedication and skill.
More to the point: you said Blizzard should stop making this a numbers game. Yet "a numbers game" is precisely the game you are playing. Re-rolling each expansion or patch to play the most powerful healer and getting upset that you cannot beat such-and-such a class on healing meters shows that you prefer a numbers game.
While the nerf to EF in its current form on the PTR is troubling, we should all provide constructive feedback, not a generalizing rant/whine from fair-weather players whose only goal is to top meters.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8425
i am just a casual raider and more incline to pvp aspect of the game.

i dont know hows Hpala doing in heroic hardcore raidings? are they even OP as compared to other healing classes? i seriously doubt it. if they are not, why would they want to nerf it without providing us any compensation?

if blizz thinks that theres something not right when most paladins took EF instead of others, probably they should consider making the other 2 talents more competitive instead of nerfing EF. thats blatant shallow decision to make. making SS a 2 mins cd is even ridiculous.

as for the matter of pvp, it will only make hpala to fall even further down the ladder when priests and shamans dominated the pvp ladder. i dont need my class to be OP, but i wouldnt want it to be borderline unplayable due to class designs.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
Selfless healer right now looks very attractive. EF not giving ANY IH shielding and turning it purely into a hot while LOD is at BEST ok in 10 man...

Gotta wait on more info now.
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90 Human Paladin
15450
Selfless healer right now looks very attractive. EF not giving ANY IH shielding and turning it purely into a hot while LOD is at BEST ok in 10 man...

Gotta wait on more info now.


Yep. We will be the only healer with 2 instant and 1 almost instant single target heals. Big heals to boot. Not sure how this will affect PvP.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
11910
We are getting Wilsoned.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
Getting 300k plus DL's now won't be impossible lolz.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
Also to note for a lot of holy paladins Eternal Flame was near always the number 2 or number 3 top heal in every fight. I don't think I seen a log where EF was any lower than number 5. Ever.

And EF being so high generally also feeds to how much IH does for our healing. Without the IH blanketing with mastery(understanding that right?) it's also an indirect nerf to IH numbers. How big...Idk.

I hope blizzard notices.
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90 Human Paladin
15450
Getting 300k plus DL's with half a second cast time on a regular basis now won't be impossible lolz.
Edited by Rasul on 6/21/2013 1:45 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
15480
Getting 300k plus DL's now won't be impossible lolz.


A 12 second ramp up time while wasting 2 gcd's and mana for minimal damage for a single target heal does not sound fun or interesting.
Edited by Taelaus on 6/21/2013 3:36 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11870
Save the Holy Pallys or you will see lot of ppl stop playing them over all realms.


I'm pretty sure this IS their intention. A lot of paladins popped up in MoP because of very strong numbers and utility. But the nerfs are outrageous. As it stands if

The HoT component of EF no longer procs Illuminated Healing.


is true? Then they have obliterated the strength behind paladin healing. Which is punishing to long term paladin players in their attempt to weed out the rerolls they created. Blizz has effectively nullified that tier of talents making it a "who cares they are all crap" talent choice.

I personally liked the way the tier was set up. Ret took Selfless Healer, Prot took Sacred Shield and Holy took EF. It worked and I liked it. If they wanted to see less paladins/ numbers and more choices, than they should have nerfed only the HoT portion of EF not the intial heal, and they should have made it so that SS to be able to be cast on more than 1 player and SH should have proc'd off of HS. Their bias and thought processes completely baffle me. I'm almost positive no one on that development team even plays Holy.
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90 Human Paladin
13130


I personally liked the way the tier was set up. Ret took Selfless Healer, Prot took Sacred Shield and Holy took EF. It worked and I liked it. If they wanted to see less paladins/ numbers and more choices, than they should have nerfed only the HoT portion of EF not the intial heal, and they should have made it so that SS to be able to be cast on more than 1 player and SH should have proc'd off of HS. Their bias and thought processes completely baffle me. I'm almost positive no one on that development team even plays Holy.


They already stated they were going to be reverting the direct heal portion and removing the IH interaction of the HoT and depending on how hard that shafts paladins give compensation else where.

Check the blue post linked above.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
17240
Until Raid Testing starts I see this as them just trying to get us to choose something other than Eternal Flame and I can safely say the changes in place now on the PTR are not set in stone.

With that said, I have to say that I wish Blizzard would hurry up and figure out WHERE they want us and what our role is supposed to be. They keep changing us around all the time and once we find our place they don't like it and decide to gut it and force us to find a new one. It gets tiring playing the role you love getting smashed into the ground all the time.

This is making me feel like 4.0 all over again in ICC. It was soooo much fun having our heals nerf'd into the ground for "Cata Changes" where we went oom after 7-10 casts for heals that did less that a feral druid. And with very poor T16 bonuses it just might be better for us to just use all off tier gear if the stats will be higher in the end if there are no changes. And I hate that idea since SP Plate gear has the lowest chance to drop since we're the only ones who can use it.

I understand the need for nerfs as most people in this thread. I understand the need to change some things around to solve design issues with encounters and such. What I don't understand when we're clearly not topping the charts is the need to hit us this hard and not give us anything back in return. And please don't say anything about Divine Plea, that change has been needed for a long time now, but it's still inferior to other healer's mana cds since it doesn't scale like theirs do.

We don't want to dominate the charts, we don't want to be over powered, all we want is to be COMPETITIVE with ALL healing classes and have spells and set bonuses that makes it fun to be a Holy Paladin!
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100 Tauren Druid
9040
The HoT component of EF no longer procs Illuminated Healing.

This talent has been obliterated. I think that change was needed, but nerfing EF itself was not.

I would be careful to state that pallies are crap. Your utility is invaluable and will always be desired.
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90 Human Paladin
15450
06/21/2013 03:35 AMPosted by Taelaus
Getting 300k plus DL's now won't be impossible lolz.


A 12 second ramp up time while wasting 2 gcd's and mana for minimal damage for a single target heal does not sound fun or interesting.


How do you come up with 12 seconds and 2 gcds?

One judgment and one crit HS will get you a 0.5 second 32% increased healing DL (with 2 pc. T16). That's six seconds and 1 gcd wasted since you still want to cast HS on cd anyway.
Edited by Rasul on 6/21/2013 8:09 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
15480
How do you come up with 12 seconds and 2 gcds?One judgment and one crit HS will get you a 0.5 second 32% increased healing DL. That's six seconds and 1 gcd wasted since you still want to cast HS on cd anyway.


Was using full duration 3 stacks. first judge starts the clock 12 seconds before the heal is free.

edit: posted it over in the ptr forums but to make SH worth it and attractive make judgement grant a charge of HP. Also buff LoD and remove the hard cap of 6 and make it DR after cap. EF is essentially part of an AoE rotation at this point and with that removed something else needs to take it's place unless the intent is to restrict paladins back to exclusive tank healing.
Edited by Taelaus on 6/21/2013 8:13 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
15450
06/21/2013 08:10 AMPosted by Taelaus
How do you come up with 12 seconds and 2 gcds?One judgment and one crit HS will get you a 0.5 second 32% increased healing DL. That's six seconds and 1 gcd wasted since you still want to cast HS on cd anyway.


Was using full duration 3 stacks. first judge starts the clock 12 seconds before the heal is free.


I see. You don't need the free heal though. With three stacks DL will be instant and hit for 60 percent more.

With SH, I would go the route of high crit something on the order of 45 - 50% crit and 25 percent mastery raid buffed. This will put the crit rate of HS at 70 - 75%.

One judgment + one crit HS will reduce your cast time to 0.5 second already. For all practical purposes it is instant.

SH increase the healing by 20%, and IoL by another 10% (with 2 pc.) that's a total of 32% increase. Looking at Wednesday raid, I cast 428 DL with average crit heal of 221k (ilvl of 428). With 32% increase DL will be critting for 291k average.

The spell cost with judgment and DL combined is 17.5k. Still quite a bit lower than no SH DL.

Its a bigger increase than most people realize.
Edited by Rasul on 6/21/2013 8:30 AM PDT
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