5.4 Holy Paladin Concerns

90 Human Paladin
15480
Its a bigger increase than most people realize.


I don't think anyone is denying the fact that it will increase healing. Because it already does. It is the ramp up time. Even if it is just the judge, and you don't crit your HS, you are twiddling.

and a 290k DL sounds nice and all but how much of that will now transfer to OH. Granted you are going to get your IH shield off of it but it is not like our DL is not already sufficient.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16645
Honestly my biggest concern is in regards to earning a raid spot. I don't really care if I'm lowest on an hps meter if my assigned role is to keep the tanks alive and I can do that better than anyone else, or if I bring a raid cd that no one else brings, etc. The nerf to the mastery from EF was absolutely warranted, and tbh the playstyle was kinda boring, and I don't mind being a dedicated tank healer like back in the days, maybe SoO will be more like that (fantasy world). But if these changes go through and T16's damage patterns are like T14 and T15 no one in their right mind will bring a holy paladin, and even less two, to any heroic progression that requires minimal amount of healers. Why bring a subpar spec that adds nothing when you can bring healers that bring both high throughput and utility in any form, be it tranq's, hymns, stt, barriers, absorbs, whatever. H pals will have absolutely nothing that sets them apart. I'm just trying to stay calm and tell myself that it's early stages of PTR. And if all else fails I'll warm the bench and play my other healers in alt runs.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11285
Doom and gloom!! Rofl, you guys are too much. This will be a great change a la Disc changes.
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90 Draenei Paladin
11670
Also to note for a lot of holy paladins Eternal Flame was near always the number 2 or number 3 top heal in every fight. I don't think I seen a log where EF was any lower than number 5. Ever.

And EF being so high generally also feeds to how much IH does for our healing. Without the IH blanketing with mastery(understanding that right?) it's also an indirect nerf to IH numbers. How big...Idk.

I hope blizzard notices.


It will be a huge nerf to IH. One thing I'd hope they do is buff IH. The main reason EH rolling is powerful is that each tick applies a shield. Since it ticks for 30 seconds, that extends shield life to over 40 seconds, increasing the absorption rate to near 100%. This is why even rolling 1 HP stacks of EF is worth doing. This was broken in beta, I can't believe they let it go live.

I'm totally down for the change as EF rolling isn't exactly engaging game play, but it will break current heal synergy and will have a huge impact on numbers. I never feel compelled to be at the top of meters but they are going to need to do something to balance the change so it isn't just a flat throughput nerf.

Change = Good
Nerf = Bad
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90 Draenei Paladin
11670
06/21/2013 08:40 AMPosted by Taelaus
Its a bigger increase than most people realize.


I don't think anyone is denying the fact that it will increase healing. Because it already does. It is the ramp up time. Even if it is just the judge, and you don't crit your HS, you are twiddling.

and a 290k DL sounds nice and all but how much of that will now transfer to OH. Granted you are going to get your IH shield off of it but it is not like our DL is not already sufficient.


I'm rarely excited about making our big direct heals bigger. IH is a nice compensation for overhealing but make no mistake: Bigger DLs will largely go wasted.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
It looks like Blizzard is keeping the mastery portion too(if I read it right) on the PTR forum, 8 minutes ago.

And buffing the other two talents to be competitive.
Edited by Marathel on 6/21/2013 10:41 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
Read it again...it looks like the initial heal will do mastery while the hot portion will not.

If I read that right. If that's so it's still a pretty big nerf.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
"At the end of the section we stated that we're reverting the change to the initial healing component of Eternal Flame while keeping the change to how it interacts with mastery. We are exploring ways of making the other talent choices more attractive."

Just recently posted. Sounds like the initial healing to me but not the hot. On MMO champion it says the hot portion won't work with IH anymore too.

06/20/2013 06:11 PMPosted by Rygarius
Our plans for now, are to revert the nerf that was done to the initial healing component of Eternal Flame, but we are unlikely to change the Illuminated Healing back to the way it was.
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100 Human Paladin
15585
"At the end of the section we stated that we're reverting the change to the initial healing component of Eternal Flame while keeping the change to how it interacts with mastery. We are exploring ways of making the other talent choices more attractive."

Just recently posted. Sounds like the initial healing to me but not the hot. On MMO champion it says the hot portion won't work with IH anymore too.

06/20/2013 06:11 PMPosted by Rygarius
Our plans for now, are to revert the nerf that was done to the initial healing component of Eternal Flame, but we are unlikely to change the Illuminated Healing back to the way it was.


I'm curious as to how they will go about making Selfless Healer or Sacred Shield more attractive to Holy Paladins. I feel they could've gone about nerfing Eternal Flame in a lot more reasonable manner than they did, but I guess the damage is already done.

It's going to take a lot for me to consider Selfless Healer a viable option, and the PTR's iteration of Sacred Shield is flat-out terrible.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
Well if the IH shield for the initial heal is kept and the front up heal isn't nerf that is something but the hot portion doing nothing is a big nerf no matter how you look at it. It would also change gameplay for holy paladins who play that route(which more or less is what everyone does).

And I don't know as much about 25 man but it seems EF blanketing is even more important than in 10 man so this will be a bigger nerf for them(someone in 25 man chime in here).
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100 Human Paladin
15585
Well if the IH shield for the initial heal is kept and the front up heal isn't nerf that is something but the hot portion doing nothing is a big nerf no matter how you look at it. It would also change gameplay for holy paladins who play that route(which more or less is what everyone does).

And I don't know as much about 25 man but it seems EF blanketing is even more important than in 10 man so this will be a bigger nerf for them(someone in 25 man chime in here).


I raid 25 mans and I can confirm that Eternal Flame blanketing, although still very important, is of more importance in 10 man raiding. Regardless, it is a pretty vicious nerf to the talent no matter how you slice it.

On the bright side, there's an amusing bug on the PTR where Divine Light won't consume its Selfless Healer stacks. Once you get 3 stacks, you can spam instant cast, mana free, high-powered Divine Lights as long as you refresh Selfless Healer with Judgment every 15 sec.
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90 Tauren Paladin
5195
I leveled this toon specificly to be my healer and a month after I get 90 they nerf us into the ground. I love how were not even the best healers and priests get a buff, when 90% of the time they destroy us on the meters and oh yeah wait they pull 30k dps to top it off but we need nerfs... From a PvP perspective wtf is this though shamans/disc/both resto have better heals then us from an arena standpoint and a ton more utility the same in rbgs. I just dont understand what warrants this nerf.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
lol. Referring to your post Areos.

I love some bugs in the PTR. Makes for fun stuff.
Edited by Marathel on 6/21/2013 12:03 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
15480
Even with the partial reverting of the nerf, it is still a nerf with nothing to compensate. I don't get it.

It's not like the palyers designed the mastery or anything.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
It's a pretty big nerf. Especially to those who use Divine Purpose like me or use Holy Avenger to EF blanket.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
I am fine with them nerfing it if they adjust something else. It's not like paladins are dominating anything right now. And end of the day it is straight out of left field. Like someone woke up with half an idea.

If they don't like IH fine whatever, but nerfing for nothing more than the sake of nerfing is stupid.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15200
The HoT component of EF no longer procs Illuminated Healing.

This talent has been obliterated. I think that change was needed, but nerfing EF itself was not.

I would be careful to state that pallies are crap. Your utility is invaluable and will always be desired.


Our utility that is brought by every other spec of paladin? And most of our utility is brought in some form by other classes.


I raid 25 mans and I can confirm that Eternal Flame blanketing, although still very important, is of more importance in 10 man raiding. Regardless, it is a pretty vicious nerf to the talent no matter how you slice it.


EF blanketing just as important for our overall throughput in 25m. The other option, Light of Dawn, is better in 10m than 25m.
Edited by Cynix on 6/21/2013 1:18 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15650
Your utility is invaluable and will always be desired.


Aura Mastery? Just get a Prot Pally
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90 Draenei Paladin
12580
Anyone who thinks holy paladins have a great deal of raid utility aren't paying attention. Devotion Aura is our only raid cd, easily provided by a ret or prot pally.

The initial heal of Eternal Flame is no longer being nerfed by 30%--well, that's good. But not allowing EF hots to proc our mastery?

According to Aladya, it's a 17% nerf to our healing (go look at the mmo-champion forums) and that's pretty significant, considering we're already one of the weakest healers currently in game. And from the math he's done, the new tier will favor HoT based healing.

With that in mind, taking away the IH proc from the EF hot is absurd. Why design a tier of raiding for HoT based healing and then take away the effectiveness of the hpally hot?
Edited by Kyáza on 6/21/2013 2:56 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13440
With that in mind, taking away the IH proc from the EF hot is absurd. Why design a tier of raiding for HoT based healing and then take away the effectiveness of the hpally hot?


I totally agree that it's quite absurd for them to do that, but at least they reverted the initial heal nerf. I'm hoping to see some rework or buff to sacred shield since Selfless Healer seems meh.

I would have been perfectly happy going through 5.4 without any changes...

of course exempting the Divine Plea change hehe. I'll take that and the Sanctified Wrath one was a boost to the talent even if people will still not take it.


Strongly Agree, and I definitely think we should get a raw healing buff (Looking at LoD and HR) to compensate for the nerf

Looking forward to some better changes for 5.4, otherwise I might just switch to monk or shaman :(
Edited by Iceadin on 6/21/2013 5:08 PM PDT
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