5.4 Holy Paladin Concerns

90 Tauren Paladin
12285
We will get changes, just chill for a bit until we get to the raid testing and they see numbers. They have said they don't think our output is too high (and is fine) so I think we'll end up just fine.

My guess is that the nerfs are hard to understand right now because we don't see the full picture of what they plan for us in 5.4. Only time will tell us :)

Let's be honest, who thought we wouldn't be changed at all. They said a month ago that they were going to look into absorb for 5.4.

I agree that the way to release nerfs and then don't justify them right away with what they have in mind for us is a bit unpleasant, but I guess that's just how blizzard work x_x
Edited by Fashionstar on 6/21/2013 8:21 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
Mhmmm...At this point it's just waiting for more information and the next PTR release.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13440
Mhmmm...At this point it's just waiting for more information and the next PTR release.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9880
Humm ok ill be honest no I didn't expect blizzard to make so many game play altering changes to holy pallies. Since they said they dont like to do things like that mid expansion much less mid teirs and such. No I dont expect that the people that designed my class the way it is currently would now turn around and say that they hate how 75% of my healing works in their game. This does not make much sense to me at all if anyone can explain it plz go ahead.

To clarify that 75% im talking about how holy shock, IH, and EF work. Like how holy shock used to work as tank healing single target with daybreak which was already changed. Speaking from 10 man especially this was 1 of the 3 heals we had that was actually good in our toolkit. They have also already nerfed our mastery, which is not an actual heal though, and this was a huge portion of our healing. Of course that wasnt enough they still hate it and must find ways to nerf/reduce it more for 5.4.

Now on the 5.4 ptr they attack EF the second healing spell holy pallies have that is good. As it currently stands right now on the ptr it is not worth taking. You are better off keeping wog with full strenght and mastery to triage people instantly. So they didn't just stop at making it initially heal for less or the ticks heal for less. Might as well go further and work on that mastery illuminated healing that they still hate and tack that on and nerf the mastery from EF ticks and all the mastery which that keeps rolling on people.

Now I could believe how they say we will test it out and compensate holy pallies. Hard to do when they "claim" they do not make radical class changes mid expansion and then they do. When you look at the sum of all these nerfs I dont even know how you could bring us up to par without making once again some class altering new spells or changes. Maybe if you tweak the numbers of our remaining bad spells to a rediculous amount of 200-300% higher then they are currently. Well i just do not see that happening.

I guess this leaves me with 1 good spell for 10 man remaining being holy prism. They took away holy pallies other 2 decent spells but I still have holy prism....... at least for now I do.
Edited by Bythelights on 6/21/2013 10:02 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16020
I love Fashionstar and Fashionstar Culture :)
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90 Orc Monk
12680
I love Healzrforus and Healzrforus Culture :)
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90 Human Paladin
13130

Let's be honest, who thought we wouldn't be changed at all. They said a month ago that they were going to look into absorb for 5.4.


Which apparently meant they were going to give shamans an absorb as opposed to reducing the amount of absorbs currently in game.


Now on the 5.4 ptr they attack EF the second healing spell holy pallies have that is good. As it currently stands right now on the ptr it is not worth taking. You are better off keeping wog with full strenght and mastery to triage people instantly. So they didn't just stop at making it initially heal for less or the ticks heal for less. Might as well go further and work on that mastery illuminated healing that they still hate and tack that on and nerf the mastery from EF ticks and all the mastery which that keeps rolling on people.


They've already stated they are reverting the upfront nerf to EF's healing. As far as the HoT healing that hasn't been reduced.

The only nerf to EF that is going to stick (so far) is that the HoT ticks will not apply IH, and if you honestly didn't see something like this coming you've had your head buried in the sand for a long time.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
Anyone who thinks holy paladins have a great deal of raid utility aren't paying attention. Devotion Aura is our only raid cd, easily provided by a ret or prot pally.


Except that is a ridiculous argument, because the more Devo Auras you have in the raid, the more cooldowns that you have for threatening AoE damage abilities. Devo Aura is the most flexible and arguably the strongest damage reduction raid cooldown in the game as long as they don't make another instance like HoF with primarily physical raid damage.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930

Which apparently meant they were going to give shamans an absorb as opposed to reducing the amount of absorbs currently in game.



You can't be serious about a 2 piece absorb that will do about 10k every few seconds, limited to a single target. It is the worst 2 piece since Vanilla.
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You can't be serious about a 2 piece absorb that will do about 10k every few seconds, limited to a single target. It is the worst 2 piece since Vanilla.

Eh, still better than the T11 2p.

HoTs have always had the downside of overhealing as a counter to their raid-buffering capabilities. IH removed (and actually compensated) the overhealing component of EF, so I'm not surprised they axed that at last. They want to make HoTs more solid than absorbs for raid-buffering in Siege; EF's buffering power should come from the HoT itself, and not from an absorb it applies.
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90 Human Paladin
13130

You can't be serious about a 2 piece absorb that will do about 10k every few seconds, limited to a single target. It is the worst 2 piece since Vanilla.


Given their statements over the past few months about absorbs and wanting to reduce them, adding in a new one (regardless of the amount of it) is counter to those statements.

You do realize adding in a completely new absorb does not equate to reducing the quantity of absorbs?

That was point of my statement. Not a statement on the quality of the useless absorb they are giving shamans, not a statement on the usefulness of the shaman 2 piece, it was a statement on the sheer fact they are adding in another form of absorb when they've been complaining about the role of absorbs.

Go be defensive about your tier bonuses some where else.
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90 Orc Monk
12010
I love Tiberria and Tiberria Culture :)
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90 Orc Monk
12680
I love Tiberria and Tiberria Culture :)


get out.
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90 Orc Monk
12010
:(
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90 Tauren Paladin
12285
I love Fashionstar and Fashionstar Culture :)


*_*
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
14975
06/22/2013 06:44 AMPosted by Tiberria
Anyone who thinks holy paladins have a great deal of raid utility aren't paying attention. Devotion Aura is our only raid cd, easily provided by a ret or prot pally.


Except that is a ridiculous argument, because the more Devo Auras you have in the raid, the more cooldowns that you have for threatening AoE damage abilities. Devo Aura is the most flexible and arguably the strongest damage reduction raid cooldown in the game as long as they don't make another instance like HoF with primarily physical raid damage.


It isn't a ridiculous argument. Devo aura is really only necessary or even good against magic raid damage that will flat out 1 shot the raid without a damage reduction cooldown, which barely happens. Usually when blizzard messes up and releases something like that they hot fix it pretty quickly(jolt on heroic animus pre hotfix). The damage reduction on Devo Aura does not equal the healing done of a revival, tranq, etc. Those got massively buffed in 25m and are far ahead of devo aura. So you are better off going with another monk, priest or druid.

And Devo Aura being the only raid cooldown with the same effect across all specs is a very valid point.
Edited by Cynix on 6/23/2013 6:14 AM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
06/23/2013 06:02 AMPosted by Cynix


Except that is a ridiculous argument, because the more Devo Auras you have in the raid, the more cooldowns that you have for threatening AoE damage abilities. Devo Aura is the most flexible and arguably the strongest damage reduction raid cooldown in the game as long as they don't make another instance like HoF with primarily physical raid damage.


It isn't a ridiculous argument. Devo aura is only good against raid damage that will flat out 1 shot the raid without a damage reduction cooldown, which barely happens. Usually when blizzard messes up and releases something like that they hot fix it pretty quickly(jolt on heroic animus pre hotfix). The damage reduction on Devo Aura does not equal the healing done of a revival, tranq, etc. Those got massively buffed in 25m and are far ahead of devo aura. So you are better off going with another monk, priest or druid.


The difference between healing output based raid cooldowns and damage reduction raid cooldowns is a whole other issue, and I do agree that they have moved way too far in buffing healing based raid cooldowns in 25 man raids. With Tranq healing for in excess of 8 million in 25 man raids, the entire raid would need to take 1.6 million damage or more over a 6 second window before Devo Aura would match that level of damage reduction.

However, the damage reduction cooldowns also matter in cases where the raid will take more than 100% of everyone's health as damage over a 10 second window. Damage reduction cooldowns guarantee everyone will survive, but DH/Tranq don't necessarily heal everyone in the raid. The effective health buffer is better at guaranteeing there are no deaths and providing an extra buffer from someone taking a tick of something avoidable, etc. Damage reduction effects need to be less powerful than healing effects, but don't need to be 1/3 as powerful, which is pretty much where they are now.

My point was more that Devo Aura is probably the strongest damage reduction cooldown of the healers that are balanced around having damage reduction raid cooldowns. Barrier and SLT both require stacking in a 10 yard radius circle, which means that they will not effect the entire raid on a lot of fights - even on most fights this tier. Barrier does have a 4 second longer duration and 5% more damage reduction to compensate. SLT has half the damage reduction and the same duration as Devo Aura, and is clearly inferior to it in every way - outside of gimmick healing debuffs. I don't think the fact that Devo Aura is available to all paladin specs really devalues it - the more you have, the better off your raid is.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
14975
The fact devo is worse than healing raid cooldowns and the fact that every paladin brings it does devalue it in terms of utility holy paladins bring. The only thing devo has over the healing cooldowns is it can prevent 1 shot mechanics(which I said in my previous post). If the ability doesn't do more than the raids effective health in a matter of 1-2 seconds the healing cooldowns will definitely overtake it in usefulness.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11870
They already stated they were going to be reverting the direct heal portion and removing the IH interaction of the HoT and depending on how hard that shafts paladins give compensation else where.

Check the blue post linked above.


Haven't seen it in effect yet. Just got onto the PTR to test and and the change is not effective. My EF intial heal on live is roughly 90k, on PTR its roughly 60k, that's a big difference. Was hoping they would revert it before raid testing.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
06/23/2013 06:22 AMPosted by Tiberria
Barrier and SLT both require stacking in a 10 yard radius circle, which means that they will not effect the entire raid on a lot of fights -


Neither are brought by dps. Turns out devo aura is brought by prot and ret. If you want to make the argument that more is better, it is a pretty shallow argument.
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