5.4 Holy Paladin Concerns

90 Troll Shaman
18930
Barrier and SLT both require stacking in a 10 yard radius circle, which means that they will not effect the entire raid on a lot of fights -


Neither are brought by dps. Turns out devo aura is brought by prot and ret. If you want to make the argument that more is better, it is a pretty shallow argument.


How is more not better? Having 2 Devo Auras instead of 1 doubles your uptime and doubles the amount of boss abilities you can use it for. I definitely think that giving DPS specs access to raid cooldowns was a bad idea (it is creating a slippery slope where they now all think they need to have one), but I really can't think of any situations where you are going to sit a Holy Paladin for a Disc Priest (when you have a Ret already in the raid) because Barrier/Devo Aura is preferred over 2 Devos. The more likely result of Ret and Prot having Devo Aura is that you will end up just using less healers altogether, because you have enough raid cooldowns without them with enough DPS bringing raid cooldowns.
Edited by Tiberria on 6/23/2013 7:47 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
12580


My point was more that Devo Aura is probably the strongest damage reduction cooldown of the healers that are balanced around having damage reduction raid cooldowns. Barrier and SLT both require stacking in a 10 yard radius circle, which means that they will not effect the entire raid on a lot of fights - even on most fights this tier. Barrier does have a 4 second longer duration and 5% more damage reduction to compensate. SLT has half the damage reduction and the same duration as Devo Aura, and is clearly inferior to it in every way - outside of gimmick healing debuffs. I don't think the fact that Devo Aura is available to all paladin specs really devalues it - the more you have, the better off your raid is.


No, Devo Aura is *not* the strongest reduction cd of healers who are balanced around raid cds. It lasts 6 seconds, only provides MAGIC damage reduction (not physical AND magic, like power word barrier and spirit link totem both provide).

The weakest thing about Devo is that it is only viable in fights with magic damage. Give us a phase with a boss that has purely physical damage and devo aura is completely useless.

And, hey, guess what? Spirit link is brought by Resto Shamans ONLY. As Power Word: Barrier is brought by Discipline Priests ONLY.

So your argument, here, isn't supported by the facts.

Stacking devo auras is only useful for a select few fights, but it isn't optimal for many.

So no, devotion aura is *not* one of the strongest raid cds in game (and is, in fact, one of the weakest), and it does not offer holy paladins any raid utility not already offered by ret/prot pallies.
Edited by Kyáza on 6/24/2013 3:24 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11870
06/24/2013 03:23 AMPosted by Kyáza
The weakest thing about Devo is that it is only viable in fights with magic damage. Give us a phase with a boss that has purely physical damage and devo aura is completely useless.


Every week my RL asks, "Ceresc, what do you have for 3rd Fist Smash?"
Me: ".........nothing."

As a raid cooldown rather. Yes I still have Holy Avenger, and some personals. Which I'd rather not count as a reliable raid cd.
Edited by Ceresc on 6/24/2013 3:39 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
12580


Every week my RL asks, "Ceresc, what do you have for 3rd Fist Smash?"
Me: ".........nothing."

As a raid cooldown rather. Yes I still have Holy Avenger, and some personals. Which I'd rather not count as a reliable raid cd.


Lol, yep this exactly. Holy Avenger is a nice little personal, but a raid cd? Not quite.

And I hate that question "What can we use for this next fist smash?" It's like.. I'm a healer, and I can't do anything to help mitigate that damage except pop personals and do some burst healing.

Rather frustrating.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8410
Guys, you know better than to argue with Tiberria. Obvs, he's right, Devo Aura is the strongest redux cooldown there is, no matter what the facts say, and if you don't agree, well, you're just wrong.
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100 Human Paladin
14140
Curious to ask, since the discussion in this thread has shifted towards Devotion Aura and Holy Paladin utility; to those who feel Holy Paladins need more personal utility and/or think Devotion Aura isn't strong enough for its role, what do you feel should be done to solve this issue?
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90 Human Paladin
13130
To make holy more valuable - remove it from the other specs. I don't think that's a good idea at all but it would make holy utility something specific above just having a prot or a ret paladin present.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
Curious to ask, since the discussion in this thread has shifted towards Devotion Aura and Holy Paladin utility; to those who feel Holy Paladins need more personal utility and/or think Devotion Aura isn't strong enough for its role, what do you feel should be done to solve this issue?


Not sure anyone is looking for a change. Just don't think that holy utility can be cited like other healer utility that is specific to their spec and not across all roles. Unlike other classes with shared CD's paladins don't lose or gain any strength across the different specs, which i am sure you know but just felt like writing it.

Hopefully with testing going on tonight and tomorrow they can get a feel for how bad the EF nerf is going to hurt and make adjustments in other spots. Because it is going to hurt.
Edited by Taelaus on 6/24/2013 11:04 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
8410
The way I see the EF nerf is this:

Back in 5.2, mistweavers had a few pretty big changes lined up, not the least of which was to our level 30 talents. The spells had become so ingrained into rotations that I've seen quite a few monks overlook Uplift for Chi Wave or Burst in many situations. Blizzard did come out and say that they didn't want this to happen, taht they wanted these talents to be more situational in use, not such an absolute priority, so all of them were changed. The Chi costs were removed and cooldowns were added. While mistweavers were hurting because of this, monks as a whole benefited; they were rarely used in lieu of actual damage or mitigation abilities, and with the changes, they saw much more frequent use. The talents became less of a necessity to use and more of an option.

While not entirely parallel, I can see a lot of similarities going on. EF is pretty much essential in its current form for all Holy paladins. It just is. There is no option. For a talent system designed to give players options, this is very opposed to what was in mind when it was developed. It's the same thing they're doing to Sacred Shield, but for the other end of the spectrum; prot paladins without it tended to be very squishy. These changes can go a long way towards the growth of the class; ret gets a passive cooldown with the new Sacred Shield, prots get the same, or a self-hot, and Holy gets more options.

Where we run into a snag is unlatching IH from EF. The entire reason paladins were considered over the top, even before Disc got nerfed, was this combo, and now that both are on the chopping block, things look a bit bleak, even I can admit. They could go a few different ways with this:

1) Keep the changes as they are. Undesirable, we'll be seeing a lot of red-headed-stepchild posts in the future in this aspect.

2) Keep the EF changes but buff mastery slightly to compensate. I think a full on reversion of the nerf might be a bit much, but as it stands, both being nerfed stands to hurt paladin healing more than help healing as a whole. By re-buffing the mastery to compensate the EF nerf, the shift from EF blankets to single target becomes even better, and I would expect that Paladins would become the best tank healers in the game.

3) Relatch IH with EF. This would bring us right back to square one, with lower numbers. I don't really see this as a good outcome.

Anyways, that's my two cents. Take it or leave it, I'm a dumbface either way. :3
Edited by Fistlobster on 6/24/2013 11:45 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Priest
0
Hopefully with testing going on tonight and tomorrow they can get a feel for how bad the EF nerf is going to hurt and make adjustments in other spots. Because it is going to hurt.


I'd be pretty stoked if they can get Paladins back on track without total reliance on Eternal Flame. I saw what was happening with the class in MoP Beta and how everything was coming down to EF and rerolled. Paladins just don't feel like Paladins anymore (to me), hopefully this nerf will allow them to bring back some personality to the spec without totally gimping them.

It seems totally doable to have Holy Paladins function in current raiding without EF, it all just depends on how they do it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
It seems totally doable to have Holy Paladins function in current raiding without EF


Function I think is the right word but having said that. When you have a spell that heavily ties to your number 1 heal(IH) and it is usually your second heal or third. And it also does a big part of your beacon healing.

When it acts as breakpoint in stat stacking(haste) and even utilizes crit extensively.. Eternal Flame became literally the most important spell in our arsenal. If not the most important pretty damn close.

Which is amazing in its own sense and kind of sad. I really hope Blizzard can properly switch our reliance on it lol. Because its a big reliance.
Edited by Marathel on 6/24/2013 11:48 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
It seems totally doable to have Holy Paladins function in current raiding without EF, it all just depends on how they do it.


Yeah i have no issues with what they are doing as long as they have a plan. To nerf something because two other talents are bad, not do anythinng to make them better, and not adjust anything else to make up for it, that is the part that scares me. And you know they wanted to nerf it hard but due to people complaining they eased it up a bit.

And i don't buy the logic of they want to make it feel like you have a choice for the different tier talents. If that were the case why do a total of 0 holy paladins take execution sentence? Why does every single shaman take HTT.

It's not our fault they made a bad tier. But pingeon holing you because they failed to make a talent attractive seems even poorer a design if you ask me.

edit: damn character selection screen.
Edited by Sadiemay on 6/24/2013 12:02 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
12285
After that first PTR raid test I will say that I fell weak, extremly weak.

Anyone else did PTR test? How did it go?
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100 Human Paladin
14140
After that first PTR raid test I will say that I fell weak, extremly weak.

Anyone else did PTR test? How did it go?


From what my testing has shown on the PTR, as a whole, Holy Paladins are now in a very poor state. This nerf to Eternal Flame was very significant, as expected, and I felt my throughput was minuscule in comparison to the other healers I participated with.

I'm tempted to ask for a Light of Dawn buff, but I'm afraid this would only hurt Eternal Flame's viability even more due to both abilities sharing Holy Power as a resource. Buffing Holy Radiance would only really help on fights where the raid is stacked together, and I would rather Holy Paladins not walk down the same road Restoration Shaman have regarding stacked healing. Buffing our three single target casted healing spells (Holy Light, Divine Light and Flash of Light) is a given and would've been justifiable even before the nerf to Eternal Flame. Buffing Beacon of Light would push us back towards our previous role as exclusive tank healers, which I and many others would not like at all.

It's hard to say what should be buffed about Holy Paladins now since Eternal Flame and Illuminated Healing's synergy covered such a broad range of roles for Holy Paladins in raids, but if I had to choose, I would say we need improved spread healing and mitigation mechanics of some sort. Eternal Flame and Illuminated Healing covered the bulk of these two roles, and now that their synergy has been removed entirely, we need new or improved tools to help cover this gap in our toolkit. If it's not fixed during this PTR cycle, I doubt it'll be fixed at all until the next expansion's pre-launch development...
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90 Human Paladin
15480
After that first PTR raid test I will say that I fell weak, extremly weak.Anyone else did PTR test? How did it go?


Wasn't running skada because it was lagging the hell out of me.

Felt a little underpowered. Was curious if Holy Shield was being tracked through skada or not though. Hopefully next test I can get it going without too much lag. Overall we will need a little something somewhere. Can definitely see stacking the hell out of crit next tier.
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90 Dwarf Priest
12850
06/24/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Taelaus
After that first PTR raid test I will say that I fell weak, extremly weak.Anyone else did PTR test? How did it go?


Wasn't running skada because it was lagging the hell out of me.

Felt a little underpowered. Was curious if Holy Shield was being tracked through skada or not though. Hopefully next test I can get it going without too much lag. Overall we will need a little something somewhere. Can definitely see stacking the hell out of crit next tier.


You can use World of Logs. That's what I had to resort too. Hope it helps. Sorry for your nerfs guys. :/
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13440
After that first PTR raid test I will say that I fell weak, extremly weak.


I felt incredibly weak as well :(

Wasn't really anywhere near the other healers, and I feel like trying a haste build if nothing changes.

EF's periodic healing not contributing to IH is a HUGE nerf
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13440
06/24/2013 05:13 PMPosted by Areos
It's hard to say what should be buffed about Holy Paladins now since Eternal Flame and Illuminated Healing's synergy covered such a broad range of roles for Holy Paladins in raids, but if I had to choose, I would say we need improved spread healing and mitigation mechanics of some sort. Eternal Flame and Illuminated Healing covered the bulk of these two roles, and now that their synergy has been removed entirely, we need new or improved tools to help cover this gap in our toolkit.


I agree
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
Maybe Blizzard will realize the chain reaction nerfing EF would cause.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9880
I fail to see how they wouldn't realize this. Our class is so clunky and had been broken for so long now and nothing good has happened yet.

We are spending over 80% of our mana just casting holy radiance. As far as actual time goes I am sure holy radiance makes up close to 50% of healing casts. Yet for all this cost holy radiance has in 10 man it makes up maybe 7.5% average of my healing around 10% with added Illuminated healing it brings. For 25 man numbers close to 12% and maybe 16%ish with IH.

This feels clunky to me blizzard and downright stupid. No numbers needed even. The only thing that made such a terrible, mana hogging, useless, slow casting garbage spell like holy radiance worth it was building holy power for eternal flame. Eternal flame the saving grace of holy paladins.

If you nerf eternal flame your changing everything about holy pallies. I really like the spell, but if you need to force me back into brainless light of dawn can I at least disable the spell effect. As well as get some compensation and tools to handle raid healing. Especially spread out and burst spread out healing mechanics.
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