[PVP] WW Monk:We need damage/burst,not heals.

90 Pandaren Monk
8775
Hi! I recently returned to WoW after quitting mid-cata and decided to roll with WW monk. I generally play warrior, so I figured this would be a change of pace. I've been pretty upset..towards the community...upon hitting 90 and gearing myself up.

I cannot, for the life of me, find a dedicated arena team or get into a Rated BG group. Its always "Why aren't you MW?" and "WW lol"

Now, personally, I don't really have an "issue" per say with WW. I like the class and how it functions; at times I even feel really powerful, and in control of situations. However, everyone seems to think that WW is garbage for PVP.

And now I'm seeing the current (as of 06/20/2013) changes:
Chi Brew now has spec specific tooltips and grants 3 Brew or Tea for your spec.
-
Healing Elixirs now also heals the next time a damaging attack brings you below 35% of your maximum health.
-
Power Strikes now also allows your next Spinning Crane Kick, Expel Harm, or Keg Smash to generate 1 Chi.

Chi Brew giving us 3 stacks is a horrible solution to a serious problem. Not to mention that Ascension is still better. Ascension gives us a passive 15% energy regen(which is awesome!) and that extra Chi can be used to weave in a Tiger Palm, or use the full combo to RSK>FoF.

Healing Elixirs is just more healing. I suppose I can't really complain about that. A free boost to 50% (depending on the hit, of course) provided Healing Elixir is up.

Power Strikes...is still inferior to Ascension.

I feel this problem is actually more base lined into the final tier of our talents. Our final tier, for the most part, feels randomly thrown together. Honestly, to get to the point, Xuen sucks. A lot.

I really,really hate this ability. It makes no sense for a WW (imo), and it really blows as a DPS cooldown. For those that are unaware, it is basically Death Knight Gargoyle...they do comparable damage...it is seriously almost an exact copy of the spell. I feel as though that Xuen should become baseline for WW, and that spot should be replaced with a real, damaging cooldown.

Our "situation of suckyness" extends from our lack of on-demand burst. Warriors have Recklessness and Avatar, Paladins have wings, Hunters have Beastial Wrath,ect....its all "push me to do lots of damage lolz." Seeing as how burst damage is a rather serious issue, I can see why no one wants to take me as WW. I do not have that on-demand burst. Tigereye sucks, and that Chi Brew change is a really bad band-aid attempt to fix it. It's simply not enough.

So, I would like to see us either given a damaging cooldown ability (that is unique to the class!), or give us something that is very very unique in terms of utility. Make people want a WW monk in PvP.

Feel free to have a (civil) discussion. Criticism is fine by me.
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90 Orc Monk
7550
Chi Brew giving us 3 stacks is a horrible solution to a serious problem. Not to mention that Ascension is still better. Ascension gives us a passive 15% energy regen(which is awesome!) and that extra Chi can be used to weave in a Tiger Palm, or use the full combo to RSK>FoF.


Actually (While it may not be the BEST solution) I think that this change is going to help us alot with Burst damage (Giving us full chi and 3 Stacks to burst) but not so much consistent damage (Ascension gives us a extra chi build and 15% Energy regen)

I feel this problem is actually more base lined into the final tier of our talents. Our final tier, for the most part, feels randomly thrown together. Honestly, to get to the point, Xuen sucks. A lot.


I have to disagree with Xuen sucking I think this is a great CD to burst with (I currently get 10 Lightning ticks and 2k White damage = 12k a second)

I can see why no one wants to take me as WW. I do not have that on-demand burst. Tigereye sucks


While the stacking part is a pain Tigereye doesn't suck as in PvP i get a 40% Damage Increase (50% if someone has a mastery buff)

So, I would like to see us either given a damaging cooldown ability (that is unique to the class!), or give us something that is very very unique in terms of utility. Make people want a WW monk in PvP.


Tigereye Brew Glyph: Tigereye Brew now acts as if it has 10 stacks but is on a 2 Minute (or 3) CD
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90 Blood Elf Monk
5685
Tigereye Brew Glyph: Tigereye Brew now acts as if it has 10 stacks but is on a 2 Minute (or 3) CD


Alright, with my current mastery my brew gives me 4.3% per stack in PVE, and 5.3% a stack in PVP. 20 Globals (which is 5 stacks) can roughly take a minute to two minutes, and you'd rather opt for a Glyph that only builds 5 brews instantly, and that prevents further building of brew stacks for 2 minutes?

Do you like that Wind Walker monks have a lower representation in arenas? I can't find one WW past 2200 that isn't Mist Weaver. The class needs solid mechanic changes, and not gimmicky glyphs, or anymore "mandatory" glyphs or talents.
Edited by Brolleun on 6/20/2013 6:53 PM PDT
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90 Undead Monk
8445
Getting 10 stacks of tigereye brew and Rising Sun Kicking someone for 140k isn't enough for you?
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90 Undead Monk
12210
The last thing WW needs is more damage

We need survivability outside of cooldowns, not more burst
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90 Pandaren Monk
8045
Do you like that Wind Walker monks have a lower representation in arenas? I can't find one WW past 2200 that isn't Mist Weaver. The class needs solid mechanic changes, and not gimmicky glyphs, or anymore "mandatory" glyphs or talents.


Tbh, I really like the mechanics of WW and would rather see the rest of the game's burst get toned down and be more similar to how WW's function. This game has become too much about popping some retarded "swifty one shot macro" and globaling someone while the healer is CCd for an eternity. It's flat out stupid.

Nerf burst all around, remove a lot of the stupid burst CD stacking (or burst CDs in general) and promote skillful play by having good sustained damage and if you want to burst you have to build it up. It would make the game a lot more interesting IMO than just giving WW and this game yet another burst CD.
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90 Orc Monk
7550
The last thing WW needs is more damage

We need survivability outside of cooldowns, not more burst


If they buffed Fortifying Brew in some way and maybe added us another defensive (maybe we wouldn't need a 2nd defensive depending) i think we would be fine in that defense
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90 Undead Monk
12210
The last thing WW needs is more damage

We need survivability outside of cooldowns, not more burst


If they buffed Fortifying Brew in some way and maybe added us another defensive (maybe we wouldn't need a 2nd defensive depending) i think we would be fine in that defense


It's not our defensive cds that are the problem, its the amount of damage we take outside of them is, But seeing as you mentioned it Fortifying Brew is a !@#$ty cd so having Fortifying brew as a 1 min cd or a passive damage reduction would be the solution

Do you like that Wind Walker monks have a lower representation in arenas? I can't find one WW past 2200 that isn't Mist Weaver. The class needs solid mechanic changes, and not gimmicky glyphs, or anymore "mandatory" glyphs or talents.


there are plenty of WW monks that have been past 2200 this season, I've done it a couple times I just don't like to sit teams, there are players like Reqy, Dominoz, Smoovie and Innverse that have played high ratings as well and Dominoz was the only WW monk in the world to get Rank one last season. Along with Nauree achieving Glad in 3's on the EU ladders.

WW doesn't need any mechanic changes at all, the glyphs are fine and so are the talents, sure some are better than others but it is like that for every class.

Only suggest changes if you know what the actual problems are.
Edited by Darshmellow on 6/20/2013 7:48 PM PDT
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90 Undead Monk
8445
The last thing WW needs is more damage

We need survivability outside of cooldowns, not more burst
what this guy said
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90 Blood Elf Monk
5685
there are plenty of WW monks that have been past 2200 this season, I've done it a couple times I just don't like to sit teams, there are players like Reqy, Dominoz, Smoovie and Innverse that have played high ratings as well and Dominoz was the only WW monk in the world to get Rank one last season. Along with Nauree achieving Glad in 3's on the EU ladders.

WW doesn't need any mechanic changes at all, the glyphs are fine and so are the talents, sure some are better than others but it is like that for every class.

Only suggest changes if you know what the actual problems are.


Blanket statements with no citations. The burden of proof falls on you, or at the very "least" give argumentation beyond, "I got gladiator." Appeals to authority are a fallacy. You say plenty, and list 5 players, and nothing online shows their ranking in the ladders.

Start citing these "factoids" if you are going to generalize (another fallacy) and make claims the class is "fine."

I don't think the class needs more burst, but we need mechanic changes due to latency and balancing issues. Monk, especially Wind Walker, cannot stay as is with 5.4 in place, and more so in 5.3.

Right now Arena is global or turtle, and no one likes to be owned in 3 seconds or sit in a match for 25 minutes. Monks have horrible synergy (Wind Walkers) in 2s, and we aren't needed in RBGS. Some of us also play with our friends, and those friends aren't always an ideal composition.

Just because a couple of hardcore enthusiasts reach a pinnacle doesn't suddenly make the class "a-okay."

Also, I've made suggestions and I've critiqued this class; both in the PTR and here on the forums. Try looking at individuals posts if you want to "call" them out--!@#. You aren't the defacto representative for the class, and the community can have an opinion about things they've experienced--it's called dissension. What kinda schmuck tells someone who bases their opinions on experience to not give their opinion until they've experienced the act? This douche bag, that is who.

Nothing (the official site to go to) says anything about Wind Walkers just owning it up in 2200 brackets and above: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/community/
Edited by Brolleun on 6/20/2013 11:02 PM PDT
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90 Undead Monk
12210
Blanket statements with no citations. The burden of proof falls on you, or at the very "least" give argumentation beyond, "I got gladiator." Appeals to authority are a fallacy. You say plenty, and list 5 players, and nothing online shows their ranking in the ladders.


Just because a player doesn't sit on a team above 2200 for an entire season does not mean they have never done it, you post a terrible argument for the fact, and the players I listed are just some of the higher rated ones I know about, there have been plenty of other WW monks that have achieved rating.

I don't think the class needs more burst, but we need mechanic changes due to latency and balancing issues. Monk, especially Wind Walker, cannot stay as is with 5.4 in place, and more so in 5.3.


There is nothing wrong with the current way WW mechanics work, and working a class around players having latency issues is a terrible idea, if you have latency problems it is your own fault not the game's. WW will be fine in 5.4.

Right now Arena is global or turtle, and no one likes to be owned in 3 seconds or sit in a match for 25 minutes. Monks have horrible synergy (Wind Walkers) in 2s, and we aren't needed in RBGS. Some of us also play with our friends, and those friends aren't always an ideal composition.


Not exactly... games can end that fast, but honestly if you lose a game that early it is your own fault for not using cooldowns properly, not every arena match is either "3 seconds long or 25 minutes long" that is just a dumb thing to say. WW has excellent synergy in 2's, which is why Disc/WW is one of the top 2's comps in the game right now.

This game is comp based right now, if you dont play the right comp, you aren't going to do well, that's just how it is.

Also, I've made suggestions and I've critiqued this class; both in the PTR and here on the forums. Try looking at individuals posts if you want to "call" them out--!@#. You aren't the defacto representative for the class, and the community can have an opinion about things they've experienced--it's called dissension.


Just because you have posted information about a class on the forums, doesn't mean you are right.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
5685
Touch of Karma, Spinning Fire Blossom, Fists of Fury, Zen Meditation, Flying Serpent Kick, and some of our Talents aren't balanced.

TOK being dispelled by 8 second dispells is not Balanced, and having a facing requirement simply makes it a skill cap issue.

Fists of Fury is highly screwed by latency, a rooted channel, and on the GCD; and that does not make it okay, especially when a player has to spend 2 globals just to lock down someone for an ability that already roots us. Getting cheated by melee bugs and latency is bull!@#$z.

Spinning Fire Blossom being eaten by pets is completely skill-less; especially with how much noise Hunters, Mages, and Demonolgists bring to the screen.

Zen Meditation being broke by an auto swing from a pet? Not much thought goes into something Melee and Pet Classes do naturally.

Flying Serpent kick being susceptible to everything is bull. An ability meant for the Wind Walker to get the f-out-of-dodge or imma-coming-for-you is too easily defeated by charge, death gripe, roots, fears, and incapacitates.

Chiburst, Power Strikes, Chi Brew, Momentum, Celerity, Ox Wave, and Jade Wind are just sub optimal (even the PTR changes are poor or too little. Ofcourse these are just my personal opinions.) Healing Elixirs is the only solid change.

Ascension still beats out Chi Brew. The 15% energy gain and 1 chi loss is just too much, for 4 chi and 3 TEB on a 1.5 minute cooldown.

ROP is always going to be an issue if it keeps DR immediately on the second action taken against the Monk or his Allies.

Our CC hardcore DRs our very own class.
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90 Undead Monk
12210
Everything you listed can be solved by playing better.

As for the talents, there will always be better choices when it comes to talents, it is like that for every class and has been like that forever
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90 Blood Elf Monk
5685
Just because a player doesn't sit on a team above 2200 for an entire season does not mean they have never done it, you post a terrible argument for the fact, and the players I listed are just some of the higher rated ones I know about, there have been plenty of other WW monks that have achieved rating.


Prove it. You make generalized statements with no citation, and can name five individuals, without proving their ratings, and then make blanket statements that monks are fine because of your representation and theirs. Argument from Authority. Stoping straw manning and prove your words.

There is nothing wrong with the current way WW mechanics work, and working a class around players having latency issues is a terrible idea, if you have latency problems it is your own fault not the game's. WW will be fine in 5.4.


Give your argumentation, or are you incapable of explaining why Wind Walkers are fine?

Not exactly... games can end that fast, but honestly if you lose a game that early it is your own fault for not using cooldowns properly, not every arena match is either "3 seconds long or 25 minutes long" that is just a dumb thing to say. WW has excellent synergy in 2's, which is why Disc/WW is one of the top 2's comps in the game right now.

This game is comp based right now, if you dont play the right comp, you aren't going to do well, that's just how it is.


What a load of bull. Mistakes happen, and acting like you as a Human is infalliable really is begining to show your arrogance. When a player does make a mistake they shouldn't suddenly be instant gibbed, and nor should teams have to wait for the match to be nearly over to pull a win.

Screw yoru mentality of, "play the right comp." This isn't just your game, and everyone has a right to enjoy the content with the tools provided to them.

Just because you have posted information about a class on the forums, doesn't mean you are right.


The exact same applies to you, but at least some of us provide argumentation. You provide nothing.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
5685
Everything you listed can be solved by playing better.


Alright, I see you aren't actually interested in talking to the community, or supporting your opinions. Time to move on. So yeah, as I previously stated: we aren't broken, but we could use some quality of life changes, scroll up for my thoughts.
Edited by Brolleun on 6/20/2013 11:23 PM PDT
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90 Undead Monk
12210
I'm pretty sure I never said "ww is fine" I did however say that people are suggesting changes that we don't need, people saying we need mechanic changes and damage buffs obviously haven't played the class they are suggesting changes for.

What a load of bull. Mistakes happen, and acting like you as a Human is infalliable really is begining to show your arrogance. When a player does make a mistake they shouldn't suddenly be instant gibbed, and nor should teams have to wait for the match to be nearly over to pull a win.

Screw yoru mentality of, "play the right comp." This isn't just your game, and everyone has a right to enjoy the content with the tools provided to them.


This is how the game works. you need to deal with it. You can't just throw a comp together and be successful anymore, that luxury is gone, either you play the right comp now or you don't play.

You don't understand my arguments because you have no idea how the game works apparantly.
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I would like to see a proc that resets RSK. Kinda like how Spriest have it for Mind blast. Maybe they could make the proc reset the cd but not generate tigereye brew.

Also i would like to see Flying Serpent kick receive a knockdown bonus of like .5sec or something like that to go along with the root, or a glyph that removes the root but gives a knockdown instead.

Chi Brew (talent) should give you 10 stacks of whatever Brew/Tea your spec has.

Anyways I'm having a blast with both BrM and WW so yeah it could be nice to have a few more options because atm Monk does seem pretty Cookie-Cutter for talents. Well to me it seems that way but not that it's a bad thing because i like the talents i have chosen.
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90 Pandaren Monk
18100
I have two complaints about WW and they largely tie into PvE. That's no burst on pull, and no raid / rbg (I guess) utility. I liked the idea of the AoE mastery boost and instant 10 stacks. It'd solve both and bring WW into the current style of play for PvP.
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90 Pandaren Monk
15545
Instant 10 stacks would be nice, but I feel that we'd have to lose something in return. WW damage is already fairly high outside of TeB I feel. I'm rather fond of how WW plays right now with hard hits outside of CD and ramp up time for TeB. I'd rather that not change.

The Chi Brew change might make 2s/3s with Unholy DKs interesting. (But I would really miss having 5 chi...)

Overall though I agree with Darsh in that more survivability outside of CDs would be nice. Some more utility would be nice to make WW more appealing in RBGs.

06/20/2013 10:40 PMPosted by Brolleun
Blanket statements with no citations. The burden of proof falls on you, or at the very "least" give argumentation beyond, "I got gladiator." Appeals to authority are a fallacy. You say plenty, and list 5 players, and nothing online shows their ranking in the ladders.


You can view their highest 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 rating in statistics. Darsh does indeed have 2200+.

There's also:

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stats-bestplayers-10-3-0-0-0-0-0-0.html

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stats-bestteams-10-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-0-0-0-0-0.html0-0-0-0.html

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stats-bestteams-10-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-5-0-0-0-0-0.html

Also, Smoove if anyone wanted to find him. He's apparently Undead now.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/illidan/Smoove/simple
Edited by Toshu on 6/21/2013 5:25 AM PDT
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90 Orc Monk
7550
Also, Smoove if anyone wanted to find him. He's apparently Undead now.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/illidan/Smoove/simple


He went to MW now
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