Resto Shaman - 5.4 Issues and Concerns

90 Human Paladin
17090
Do resto shamans have decent dps utility like diss, mw monk, and the upcoming 5.4 druids?

I never played one so I wouldn't know, but I know that disc can average 50-80k dps through atonement healing, and my mw monk can average 40-90k dps through eminence healing (although she's undergeared, and from what I've read, mw monk's dps potential for single target can be as high as 100k once they are 535+)

I know paladin's can forget about dps, I tested spamming denounce and mixing holy shock/prism/judgement and stuff, they just stay at 20k dps while no healing is done and paladins go oom relatively fast doing that.

Do shamans have a similar situation in terms of dpsing as a healer like paladins? Or can they do decent, maybe 50k dps like disc? Because without something to compensate, I cant understand why any raid would want to bring a resto shaman
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90 Troll Shaman
8085
Do resto shamans have decent dps utility like diss, mw monk, and the upcoming 5.4 druids?

I never played one so I wouldn't know, but I know that disc can average 50-80k dps through atonement healing, and my mw monk can average 40-90k dps through eminence healing (although she's undergeared, and from what I've read, mw monk's dps potential for single target can be as high as 100k once they are 535+)

I know paladin's can forget about dps, I tested spamming denounce and mixing holy shock/prism/judgement and stuff, they just stay at 20k dps while no healing is done and paladins go oom relatively fast doing that.

Do shamans have a similar situation in terms of dpsing as a healer like paladins? Or can they do decent, maybe 50k dps like disc? Because without something to compensate, I cant understand why any raid would want to bring a resto shaman


We don't care about dpsing if we can't heal properly....
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12980
Do shamans have a similar situation in terms of dpsing as a healer like paladins? Or can they do decent, maybe 50k dps like disc? Because without something to compensate, I cant understand why any raid would want to bring a resto shaman


Yes. During Lust w/ Primal Fire Ele I can do about 50k DPS at the cost of all potential healing. But that is the extent of any meaningful damage we can do.

No we are not like Disc, MW, or 5.4 Druids.
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90 Draenei Shaman
5575
22 pages and not a single blue acknowledgement, much less response.

Warlocks, who have been doing fine overall, got a nerf to one talent, went haywire, and Blizzard practically fell all over themselves to appease the outrage. The nerf was nerfed within days.

Resto Shaman have suffered with the problems outlined in the OP for the entire expansion, and we are getting a few useless tweaks to useless glyphs and nothing that will meaningfully address the enormous problems we face with spread healing and mobility.

Even as we fill thread after thread asking why we are relegated to second-class status, buffs continue to be handed out like candy to classes that are already outperforming us, and the lead designer daily posts tweets that make you wonder if he's talking about the same game.

A few days ago, in regard to Resto Shaman, he tweeted:

We'd rather make them stronger while grouped than just like everyone else.


"Just like everyone else" apparently means "reasonably effective in all situations rather than just one that occurs very infrequently".

News flash to Mr. Street: "everyone else" performs perfectly adequately while grouped - there is nothing about being grouped that decreases any healing spec's effectiveness. Bubbling, rolling HoTs or spamming smart heals on the person right next to you works just as well, if not better, than doing the same on someone 30m away.

On the other hand, being spread, or moving, can easily reduce us to 50% or worse effectiveness, compared to "everyone else".

So the statement above basically implies that we should somewhat better in rare situations, where "everyone else" already does perfectly fine, and far worse the vast majority of the time, where "everyone else" also does perfectly fine.

Is it not obvious that this is a hopelessly flawed and entirely un-fun concept of "balance" for a class? To suck most of the time?
Edited by Rheeah on 7/3/2013 5:55 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
5575
07/03/2013 05:09 AMPosted by Doodly
Do shamans have a similar situation in terms of dpsing as a healer like paladins? Or can they do decent, maybe 50k dps like disc?


Both Elemental and (especially) Enhance can heal far better than we can DPS.

Because without something to compensate, I cant understand why any raid would want to bring a resto shaman


Welcome to the party, pal!
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
Do resto shamans have decent dps utility like diss, mw monk, and the upcoming 5.4 druids?

I never played one so I wouldn't know, but I know that disc can average 50-80k dps through atonement healing, and my mw monk can average 40-90k dps through eminence healing (although she's undergeared, and from what I've read, mw monk's dps potential for single target can be as high as 100k once they are 535+)

I know paladin's can forget about dps, I tested spamming denounce and mixing holy shock/prism/judgement and stuff, they just stay at 20k dps while no healing is done and paladins go oom relatively fast doing that.

Do shamans have a similar situation in terms of dpsing as a healer like paladins? Or can they do decent, maybe 50k dps like disc? Because without something to compensate, I cant understand why any raid would want to bring a resto shaman


We bring Stormlash Totem, which helps raid DPS, but Shaman personal DPS is probably the worst of any healer and a complete waste of time. Even if you want to use Fire Elemental Totem to help raid DPS (the only major DPS contribution we have), you're giving up a healing cooldown, since 90% of Resto Shaman spec into Primal Elementalist.

That is another one of the huge problems of the healing model - it does not properly take into account the DPS contribution of Disc and Mistweavers. If a Disc Priest can do 50k sustained DPS throughout the fight, it isn't just good enough for another healer to be able to do as much healing as her - that other healer should do more healing to compensate for the raid DPS contribution.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11845
As I've mentioned before, we're still discussing Hunter concerns. When we have an update, we will share it.

Please do not mistake silence for ignorance; we're following the discussion closely, and your constructive feedback is extremely valuable as part of the testing process. If we didn't want to hear it, we wouldn't have a PTR Discussion Forum (or even a PTR) in the first place.


*Close your eyes and pretend real hard that you're a hunter
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Do shamans have a similar situation in terms of dpsing as a healer like paladins? Or can they do decent, maybe 50k dps like disc? Because without something to compensate, I cant understand why any raid would want to bring a resto shaman

We lack any DPS output. Our Fire Ele can do an ok chunk of damage by himself, specially if Primal Elemental and used during BL. Outside of it, however, our DPS is atrocious and even lower than Denounce/HS spam.
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90 Tauren Shaman
8940
07/03/2013 06:53 AMPosted by Korghal
Do shamans have a similar situation in terms of dpsing as a healer like paladins? Or can they do decent, maybe 50k dps like disc? Because without something to compensate, I cant understand why any raid would want to bring a resto shaman

Our DPS is absolutely terrible. It's part of the reason why I picked up the Glyph of Telluric Currents, so I could spam Lightning Bolt during downtime and not lose mana.

Please do not mistake silence for ignorance; we're following the discussion closely, and your constructive feedback is extremely valuable as part of the testing process. If we didn't want to hear it, we wouldn't have a PTR Discussion Forum (or even a PTR) in the first place.

If our constructive feedback was that valuable, we would at least have it acknowledged. Recently, there's been one capped Shaman thread, this one is about to cap, and part 2 of the first capped thread is already on page 8. For that much discussion to not warrant any acknowledgement is incredibly disappointing.
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90 Human Death Knight
16880
22 pages and not a single blue acknowledgement, much less response.

Warlocks, who have been doing fine overall, got a nerf to one talent, went haywire, and Blizzard practically fell all over themselves to appease the outrage. The nerf was nerfed within days.

Resto Shaman have suffered with the problems outlined in the OP for the entire expansion, and we are getting a few useless tweaks to useless glyphs and nothing that will meaningfully address the enormous problems we face with spread healing and mobility.

Even as we fill thread after thread asking why we are relegated to second-class status, buffs continue to be handed out like candy to classes that are already outperforming us, and the lead designer daily posts tweets that make you wonder if he's talking about the same game.

A few days ago, in regard to Resto Shaman, he tweeted:

We'd rather make them stronger while grouped than just like everyone else.


"Just like everyone else" apparently means "reasonably effective in all situations rather than just one that occurs very infrequently".

News flash to Mr. Street: "everyone else" performs perfectly adequately while grouped - there is nothing about being grouped that decreases any healing spec's effectiveness. Bubbling, rolling HoTs or spamming smart heals on the person right next to you works just as well, if not better, than doing the same on someone 30m away.

On the other hand, being spread, or moving, can easily reduce us to 50% or worse effectiveness, compared to "everyone else".

So the statement above basically implies that we should somewhat better in rare situations, where "everyone else" already does perfectly fine, and far worse the vast majority of the time, where "everyone else" also does perfectly fine.

Is it not obvious that this is a hopelessly flawed and entirely un-fun concept of "balance" for a class? To suck most of the time?


You have the dev answer .. reroll aready and stop this pointless posts,they do nothing,shaman isnt a real class.

Just look at the talents... resto have no real chose to make

Tire 1 .. all just meh
Tire 2 windwalk totem
Tire 3 Projection maybe sometime call of elements
Tire 4 Ns talent... maybe ele mastery for the lols
Tire 5 HTT no questions
Tire 6 Primal Elementalist

And all this talents do like nothing to your healing ( HTT is an exeption)

Now just wait till they nerf elemental and enhancement shamans due to pvp and shaman can be a npc with tire set who dose no dmg and no healing.
Edited by Eilhart on 7/3/2013 8:41 AM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
3135

Because without something to compensate, I cant understand why any raid would want to bring a resto shaman


Welcome to the party, pal!


And this is why my friend who mains a resto shaman recently quit after being a hardcore raider since vanilla.

07/02/2013 04:30 PMPosted by Eldudearino
It's actually pretty impressive how long they can ignore Shaman issues for.


Exactly. It's amazing that there's any shaman left after having the same problems expansion after expansion! I blame my stupidity.
Edited by Jôlt on 7/3/2013 9:07 AM PDT
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85 Gnome Priest
6840
As I've mentioned before, we're still discussing Hunter concerns. When we have an update, we will share it.

Please do not mistake silence for ignorance; we're following the discussion closely, and your constructive feedback is extremely valuable as part of the testing process. If we didn't want to hear it, we wouldn't have a PTR Discussion Forum (or even a PTR) in the first place.


*Close your eyes and pretend real hard that you're a hunter


lol
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
I got them to increase the post cap limit on this thread, so it isn't going to cap out anytime soon at least.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
The new build is data mined on Wowhead. The only Shaman change is that the heal casts for Conductivity now increase the duration of Healing Rain by 3 seconds instead of 1 second. While this does effectively make Conductivity allow you to have a permanent Healing Rain down, it still isn't going to be superior to HTT/AG either from an output or a raid utility perspective. Extremely disappointing to see no other changes whatsoever.
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90 Goblin Shaman
7670
The change comes at the too great a cost for it to be worth taking. No additional communication (rather expected now)-- it's so incredibly frustrating to have such a lengthy discussion about legitimate concerns and either be dismissed or not responded to. The optimist in me wants to think it may be that they have something cooking on the back burner and don't want to shed light on due to possible development complications. However, without any substantial acknowledgement or responses to a 20+ page long thread and several tweets our concerns continue to fall on deaf ears...
Edited by Seriiusmoj on 7/3/2013 10:59 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
0
he only Shaman change is that the heal casts for Conductivity now increase the duration of Healing Rain by 3 seconds instead of 1 second. While this does effectively make Conductivity allow you to have a permanent Healing Rain down, it still isn't going to be superior to HTT/AG either from an output or a raid utility perspective.


heh, if it wasn't for it being on the same tier with HTT, i might find this a nice change for fights like megaera with the exception that you can only have 1 HR down at a time :(

Maybe if HTT was made base and conductivity also allowed for you to place more then 1 healing rain it would be a kind of awkward but workable bandaid to fixing spread heal issues? Just think of having 3-4 pools of love scattered around the area for people to move to or through. they would have no excuse not to be in them for at least a few seconds! :)

on a wholly unrelated note, the forums keep dropping this character to the bottom of the list and try to make me post on my paladin. I think blizzard is trying to tell me to reroll.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
9940
I can not believe they wont even post in this thread, but they post in the hunter, pally, priest etc. It is like they believe that shamans are fine but other classes need buffs. Well I am still being patient, but if the only 5.4 fixes we are going to get are the 2 yards to rain, the riptide glyph, and the chain glyph I am gone for the rest of this expansion at the very least.

I wish they would let us know so I can get on with it one way or another. If they let us know they are done with shaman I can save bit of money, and if they still intend on fixing us I can actually start working on my shaman again.

And on a side note, HPS does matter Ghostcrawler, it may not be the only metric but when ours sucks as bad as it does it needs to be addressed.
Edited by Fisli on 7/3/2013 11:23 AM PDT
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Community Manager
We do have more changes coming for Resto Shaman in 5.4, which you should be seeing on the PTR soon (though possibly not in the next build). However, since we’ve got a long weekend coming up here at the office due to the holiday, we wanted to let you know about a couple changes we’re going to try out for Healing Tide Totem.

First, it’s no longer a talent. Healing Tide Totem is now baseline, available to all three Shaman specs. As you’re all aware, it’s an extremely useful ability, which makes it difficult for us to provide alternative options in that talent tier. Giving Healing Tide to everyone not only lets us work on making that tier more interesting, but it also makes sure no one is missing out on one of Resto’s more powerful tools by selecting the “wrong” talent.

Second, now that Healing Tide is a baseline ability, we feel it’s acceptable to give it a similar treatment to Tranquility or Divine Hymn in 25-man raids. It will now heal up to 12 targets when in a 25-player raid instance (and remains at 5 targets in other content).

There are several other changes still in discussion (such as what we’ll be replacing Healing Tide with in the talent tree, just as one example), but we wanted to at least share what we could before the weekend. We’re hoping to get at least some of them onto the PTR in one of the next builds. Please keep up the constructive feedback – it’s extremely useful!
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Three seconds does make Conductivity decent, but it still is no match to HTT nor even AG because raid CDs have been much stronger than sustained output this entire expansion.

In terms of mana efficiency, it's probably very solid under ideal conditions, but mana has stopped being an issue this tier and is unlikely to be one next tier. While it does allow us to dump more mana into other spells, our fillers aren't exactly HPM beasts.

Maybe if HTT was made base and conductivity also allowed for you to place more then 1 healing rain it would be a kind of awkward but workable bandaid to fixing spread heal issues? Just think of having 3-4 pools of love scattered around the area for people to move to or through. they would have no excuse not to be in them for at least a few seconds! :)

GC already stated that having more than 1 HR down is not the intention of the new Conductivity and that is actually technically impossible to have it work that way.

07/03/2013 11:23 AMPosted by Lore
First, it’s no longer a talent. Healing Tide Totem is now baseline, available to all three Shaman specs.

I LOVE YOU LORE. HAVE MY FLAMY ORC BABIES.

Thanks for finally giving us a response after so long. We are more than glad to see Healing Tide be baseline after so many months of arguments of why it should have always been so, as well as helping 25m Shaman by putting it on par with the recently buffed Tranq/DH/Revival.
Edited by Korghal on 7/3/2013 11:25 AM PDT
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