Why PvP gear should not exist.

(Locked)

90 Night Elf Druid
4860
Please stick with me through the forest of text.

I have played WoW since the last patch of BC and have always loved PvP for its constant variety, adrenaline, and competition.

I'm a huge fan of the logic behind the 5.3 resil changes (increased ease of engaging in PvP without being at a severe gear disadvantage just because you PvE instead; increasing PvP participation overall by not locking PvP behind *another* gear grind that takes weeks of subscription time to farm) ...

BUT:

Blizzard needs to be very careful not to let their ends justify misguided or sloppy means.

What I'm talking about is the very common and correct concern being voiced here on the forums about how seeking PvE gear is now "the right way" to spend your time and PvP gear is "doing it wrong" unless you participate heavily in high MMR and team rating RBGs and Arenas. (PvP gear now being less-than optimal versus similar ilevel PvE gear in any PvP situation outside of instanced, high-rated competitive play.)

With Resilience baseline and a decreased emphasis on PvP Power by nerfing the on-gear importance of its companion stat, Blizzard has made PvE gear highly effective for BOTH PVE AND PVP. Whereas PvP gear is still only effective in instanced PvP and will get you vote-kicked from any non LFR Raid encounter.

Essentially (TL;DR): Blizzard is now actively punishing players who pursue PvP with most of their time, but in a casual fashion (which I would think is 90% of routinely active PvPers.

This punishment comes in the form of narrow (or even questionable) usefullness of the gear these players spend weeks of their subscription time earning, while similarly casual PvErs who play WoW with a LFD/LFR mentality are able to acquire gear of similar ilvl which is UNIVERSALLY applicable, not just in PvE, but also in PvP.

I think solving this problem of an imbalance in how useful one type of gear is over another is actually quite easy.

Keep the 5.3 changes, but remove PvP gear in its current state. Allow PvPers to earn gear of equivalent ilevel and stats as dungeon and raid gear, with different PvP gear skins. Of course, certain special story or quest-driven things like Legendaries would be unobtainable through PvP.

But the answer is clear. If making PvE gear more viable for players to participate and obtain rewards in PvP is true and a positive direction for the game to move in (which it IS), then the reverse should also be true. Allow the player to decide what method of gameplay is most enjoyable, but reward everyone with equivalent reward for their subscription time invested.

Lock Heroic Raid gear with PvP skins away behind Rating, if your panties are in a twist over "PvP are EZ-mode".

That's what I think.

Also:

***
When there are two options (A & B) for participation, perseverance, skill, and time-investment: If A has benefit C, whereas B has both benefit C and benefit D, then players clearly have no logical motivation to choose option A, from a benefits stand-point.

Additionally, players who choose option A may rightfully wonder why electors of option B seem to be favored in their choice.

For electors of option A the negative impact to game experience and fun is increased when it is not known beforehand by the participants that option B confers benefit C, but this fact is discovered only after hundreds of hours of subscription time are invested in either option.

At this point, electors of option A are given the choice to invest months of subscription time in order to earn benefit D, or accept their inability to enjoy benefit D without further time-investment.

***

In the above scenario,
"A" is the choice to PvP primarily with your available game time.
"B" is the choice to PvE primarily with your available game time.
"C" is the ability to excel in grouped PvP situations. (Excluding high MMR RBG and Arena combat)
"D" is the ability to excel in grouped PvE situations. (Excluding Heroic and challenge mode Raids)
100 Orc Shaman
9555
Keep the 5.3 changes, but remove PvP gear in its current state. Allow PvPers to earn gear of equivalent ilevel and stats as dungeon and raid gear, with different PvP gear skins. Of course, certain special story or quest-driven things like Legendaries would be unobtainable through PvP.

But the answer is clear. If making PvE gear more viable for players to participate and obtain rewards in PvP is true and a positive direction for the game to move in (which it IS), then the reverse should also be true. Allow the player to decide what method of gameplay is most enjoyable, but reward everyone with equivalent reward for their subscription time invested.


I appreciate the effort you placed into making this suggestion, but you haven't followed it through to its logical conclusion.

Here is why PVP gear will never be on par with PVE gear for PVE:

http://killadrixexplainsthings.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/why-pvp-gear-will-never-be-equivalent-to-pve-gear-in-pve/

f I had to take a wild guess, I would say that development time invested into PVE and PVP is split up as follows:

PVE: 95%
PVP 5%

Blizzard spends millions of dollars creating, testing and tuning 95% of the game (PVE), and they don’t want the people who spend their time in the least resource driven part of the game (PVP) using gear they acquired from it to trivialize the 95% they work so hard on.

I’m not saying that it isn’t unfair, or that it justifies it. I am just saying that it makes sense when you step back and look at the big picture.

You could also argue that there is very few “hardcore PVP’ers” who would even step foot into PVE if they make PVP equivalent in PVE, so why should they bother catering to people who argue that it isn’t fair solely from a philosophical standpoint who have ZERO intention of PVE’ing if Blizzard were to make the change?

You could also argue that if they made PVP gear equivalent to PVE gear in PVE, then PVE’ers would be "forced" to farm PVP gear for slots they haven’t gotten drops for in relevant content since a player can farm a full set of PVP gear in FAR less time than he or she can a full set of PVE gear.
Edited by Killadrix on 6/22/2013 9:06 PM PDT
90 Tauren Hunter
6770
Your "explanation" is based off of "wild guesses" and poor speculation; it would be smart to rename your blog to killadrixguessesthings.wordpress.com
100 Orc Shaman
9555
Your "explanation" is based off of "wild guesses" and poor speculation; it would be smart to rename your blog to killadrixguessesthings.wordpress.com


So let me ask you a few questions:

1) I am in a raiding guild, and I don't want to lose my spot in the raid, but I haven't gotten a drop in a few weeks and my performance is beginning to suffer. So hey, PVP gear is equivalent, and I can farm at least a piece a day, why WOULDN'T I DO IT?

2) Hey, a new PVP season was just released along with a new content patch, each with equivalent gear, I am Alliance and it's AV WEEKEND! Oh, what luck! I can farm an entire set of relevant content gear in a weekend and trivialize the entire new tier of content! WOOHOO!

3) Are you saying that somehow, some way, all of the die hard PVP'ers who swore off dragon slaying FOREVER are somehow going to have a change of heart if Blizzard makes PVP gear equivalent in PVE and begin participating in PVE? Surely, you jest.

But hey, these are all just "wild guesses", and you have made such a compelling argument to counter mine. I appreciate you imparting your wisdom upon us lowly denizens of the forums, oh Wise One!
Edited by Killadrix on 6/22/2013 10:14 PM PDT
Why you should not exist. This whole thread
90 Troll Warlock
9210
No Vanilla Experience? Check.
Has no idea what this game would be like without PvP Gear? Check.

I guarantee you'd be one of the first people complaining on the forums if PvP gear was ever removed.
90 Tauren Shaman
7385
No Vanilla Experience? Check.
Has no idea what this game would be like without PvP Gear? Check.

I guarantee you'd be one of the first people complaining on the forums if PvP gear was ever removed.


Another Vanilla player here, verifying everything in what I just quoted.
70 Blood Elf Rogue
5275
No Vanilla Experience? Check.
Has no idea what this game would be like without PvP Gear? Check.

I guarantee you'd be one of the first people complaining on the forums if PvP gear was ever removed.
only he wouldn't because there is still a baseline 65% resil at end cap. if pvp gear were removed damage in pvp would decrease, not increase, due to lack of pvp power.

this is nothing like the vanilla experience. in vanilla, a player could literally take you from full health to the graveyard with a single global, sometimes even just a single ability.
90 Troll Warlock
9210
No Vanilla Experience? Check.
Has no idea what this game would be like without PvP Gear? Check.

I guarantee you'd be one of the first people complaining on the forums if PvP gear was ever removed.
only he wouldn't because there is still a baseline 65% resil at end cap. if pvp gear were removed damage in pvp would decrease, not increase, due to lack of pvp power.

this is nothing like the vanilla experience. in vanilla, a player could literally take you from full health to the graveyard with a single global, sometimes even just a single ability.


Believe me, I know. But that's not what the OP's thread is about. He's one of the pople that thinks PvE gear is viable in organized PvP, and thus thinks PvP gear is pointless. It's not.
81 Undead Priest
4805
Yeah, Vanilla wow sucked for pvp. If you weren't a hard core Molten Core raider you just got steam rolled. I remember being so excited for my Barman Shanker and having to be a complete pro at stunlocking someone because if I couldn't get them dead within the stuns, they would kill me very fast. If you managed to get into a raid guild and was able to navigate the drama to actually be allowed to roll in an MC raid and win a purple?? wow, you were styling and had uber gear to be proud of.

The best thing they ever did in this game is come out with pvp honor gear and I'm glad they keep trying to refine the whole pvp system. I realize what you are getting at OP, but there was a time in the history of the game when raiders were forced to pvp for honor gear because I believe the weapons at least were seen as a mandatory upgrade. I think Blizz wants to avoid these kinds of things. There is enough grinding in this game, you really don't want to force people to do something they hate in order to progress. That's how you lose players. I myself, love pvp so it's not a grind to me but if you did not like it at all and were forced into it... The rage quitting would be endless.

These recent changes to resilence are really only making world pvp a bit trickier since people with really high item level gear have a distinct advantage over someone in straight up pvp gear outside of instanced pvp. Not that it happens often anyway though. (Wish it did!) I know Blizzard has a difficult job balancing every facet of the game, and I know I wouldn't know how to start doing it. They do make some decisions that seem strange.

But, that's from the perspective of someone who hasn't done any instanced pve since Wrath. I pretty much just enjoy the game doing random BG's and leveling alts etc. Stuff that I can just walk away from at any time and doesn't require a time commitment.

Each to his own.
90 Draenei Shaman
15135
PVP in wow has gone downhill since Blizzard implemented multiple gear tiers per season...coincidence? Probably not.
90 Tauren Druid
7615
raiders would scream and cry if their gear rewards werent ahead of everyone elses gear, and then they wouldnt bother raiding since there would be no point ( uh hello kinda like having full tyr now, but i digress) its been like since vanilla.

pvp servers need to be classified as pvp zones and all the problems would go away.
90 Orc Warrior
10085
Things like this make me think I shouldn't have resubbed :<
90 Blood Elf Priest
0
1) I am in a raiding guild, and I don't want to lose my spot in the raid, but I haven't gotten a drop in a few weeks and my performance is beginning to suffer. So hey, PVP gear is equivalent, and I can farm at least a piece a day, why WOULDN'T I DO IT?

2) Hey, a new PVP season was just released along with a new content patch, each with equivalent gear, I am Alliance and it's AV WEEKEND! Oh, what luck! I can farm an entire set of relevant content gear in a weekend and trivialize the entire new tier of content! WOOHOO!

3) Are you saying that somehow, some way, all of the die hard PVP'ers who swore off dragon slaying FOREVER are somehow going to have a change of heart if Blizzard makes PVP gear equivalent in PVE and begin participating in PVE? Surely, you jest.


1. you are comparing honor gear to raid quality gear, which is an unfair comparison. i can farm JP and get a piece of gear every day too. conquest gear you get MAYBE a piece a week, sometimes two if they are low CP items. with raiding, if you factor in LFR, and normal versions of all the current content raids dropping ilevel 496+, you have the very real possibilty of getting 5-6 items in a week, that are ALL BETTER THAN the top tier of PVP gear.

2. again, you are comparing honor gear to raid gear, dont be stupid. obviously if the OP's suggestion was put into place, the gear from honor would be exactly equal to the gear from JP. and you tell me anyone who trivialises raid content cuz of their leet JP gear.

3. but that is exactly what they are forcing die hard pvpers to do, by making PVE gear better than pvp gear in non-instanced pvp. now the die hard goldshire raiders, and TB/WG players, and anyone that likes the random pvp encounters with the new barrens questline, all need to get pve gear to not be outgeared horribly, by even casual pve players.

the answer to 3. is really that if we could truly avoid PVE altogether, we would. hell, if i could get ore and herbs and skins and cloth off dead allies, i would never pve at all. i have one pve toon, and all the rest are pvp, cuz that is what i enjoy doing. it is bad enough that i have to pve to raise reps for my crafting skills to get patterns and recipes, but i understand that that is a PVE activity, so i need to bite the pve bullet to do it.

finally i dont know any serious pvper who even WANTS pvp gear to be = pve gear. we would be content with pve blue equivalent stats, so we can kill random monsters we find while in world pvp or doing dailies... we just dont want PVE gear to be BETTER than pvp gear for pvp. ever.
90 Draenei Shaman
8825
Credit to Ozd, from another thread about gear and PVP.

Ozd:
I continue to be baffled why Bliz makes this whole issue so difficult to deal with. The solution is easy:

PVP and PVE gear at the same levels have the same stats. PVP gear also has PVP power on it.

1) In a raid, PVP power has a negative effect reducing the damage output, so it is inferior to PVE gear.

2) In the world, PVP power has a zero effect. So in a world PVP encounter both sets of gear are equal.

3) In Battlegrounds or Arenas, PVP power has a positive effect making PVP gear more powerful.

I guess this solution is just too simple for the devs.
90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Credit to Ozd, from another thread about gear and PVP.

Ozd:
I continue to be baffled why Bliz makes this whole issue so difficult to deal with. The solution is easy:

PVP and PVE gear at the same levels have the same stats. PVP gear also has PVP power on it.

1) In a raid, PVP power has a negative effect reducing the damage output, so it is inferior to PVE gear.

2) In the world, PVP power has a zero effect. So in a world PVP encounter both sets of gear are equal.

3) In Battlegrounds or Arenas, PVP power has a positive effect making PVP gear more powerful.

I guess this solution is just too simple for the devs.


as long as the gear is truly the same item level for similar levels of play, then i am all for this solution. but if heroic raiders get some sort of extra ilevel for their gear, it brings back the whole problem.
94 Human Warlock
7320
PvE gear should scale to iLevel 458 (crafted).
Problem solved.
100 Orc Shaman
9555
PvE gear should scale to iLevel 458 (crafted).
Problem solved.


It solves a problem, just not the one Blizzard is intending to solve.
94 Human Warlock
7320
^^ They wanted more people (PvE'ers) to get into PvP.

If PvE geared was scaled down to crafted level, this would still be possible (same resil for all). They just would not do as much damage, but would be able to contribute as PvPers who are now gearing up. At the same time, they won't be skipping the gearing process to make PvPers feel slighted.
50 Pandaren Warrior
885
i disagree we should have pvp gear cause it helps us kill other poeple from allince or if u go to the darkmoon faire then u go to the deathmatch arena and you have no pvp gear so .... tats why u need pvp gear
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