No overhaul for hunters and rogues?

90 Dwarf Hunter
16880
Q: I think GC has hinted previously that he thinks hunter specs should be more different
A: Yup. Hunter and rogue specs play too similarly in our opinions. (Don't expect massive overhauls.)

Warlocks got a MASSIVE overhaul, and before then they still played more differently than hunters and rogues. So why do they get a massive overhaul but hunters and rogues don't?
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90 Draenei Shaman
6910
Nobody played Warlocks. Hunters are the second most played class. That's the biggest reason.

Also they probably don't need it as much. Hunters have solid groundwork for each spec, they just need some abilities/procs/concepts to differentiate them more. Warlocks were just kind of a mess pre-MoP.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16880
Nobody played Warlocks. Hunters are the second most played class. That's the biggest reason.

Also they probably don't need it as much. Hunters have solid groundwork for each spec, they just need some abilities/procs/concepts to differentiate them more. Warlocks were just kind of a mess pre-MoP.

Hunter is the most spec homogenized class out there, and as much as I would like to think blizzard would give us an overhaul and do away with now worthless or filler abilities like aspects, arcane shot and the such, they probably won't.

An overhaul for the hunter class will most likely just be adding new effects to already existing abilities or slightly changing how the abilities work in hopes of keeping the class fresh for at least a few patches.

Also, I don't see what representation has to do with it. Rogues are played even less than warlocks after all. Why is it that when warlocks change specs it is like they are changing classes but when hunters and rogues change specs more than half of the buttons they press are pretty much the exact same buttons that they press in their other specs?
Edited by Spinnerdh on 6/20/2013 8:29 AM PDT
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90 Troll Hunter
14735
Also they probably don't need it as much. Hunters have solid groundwork for each spec, they just need some abilities/procs/concepts to differentiate them more. Warlocks were just kind of a mess pre-MoP.

That "solid ground work" is the same regardless of spec...

Spec differences
- A couple of Procs
- Nuke ability
- 1or 2 additional abilities (Focus Fire & BW vs Chim Shot & Binding/Silencing vs Black Arrow)
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90 Worgen Rogue
10920
Nobody played Warlocks. Hunters are the second most played class. That's the biggest reason.

Also they probably don't need it as much. Hunters have solid groundwork for each spec, they just need some abilities/procs/concepts to differentiate them more. Warlocks were just kind of a mess pre-MoP.


Rogues are the only melee spec able to keep up with the ranged in the raiding scene at the moment, and yet it is still the second least played spec next to Monk which just released this expansion. Makes you wonder how messed up a class has to be if it is so strong yet so unpopular.

This class has barely received any attention for years now, probably since around BC/Wrath. At this point rogues are just a patchwerk, a collection of bandages and duct tape holding it together. Assassination is brain dead boring, playing Combat feels like gears grinding together to make things happen, and Sub isn't even an option in PvE any longer.
Edited by Skarzog on 6/20/2013 12:53 PM PDT
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Sub isn't even an option in PvE any longer.


Really? It was doing so well in raids :( Sad to hear they just let it fall out again.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15020
You do understand the difference between a beta overhaul and reasonable expectations from a mid expansion patch?
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How about just a rework of some of our less impressive talents and abilities? The latest PTR build has numerous changes to most classes - including some game changers. (KJC anyone?) But not rogues. I'd just like to know why.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16880
You do understand the difference between a beta overhaul and reasonable expectations from a mid expansion patch?

"We can't do a class overhaul in the middle of a patch." is just an excuse. They say that but then they don't make the changes when a new xpac rolls around for some unknown reason.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
9570
Nobody played Warlocks. Hunters are the second most played class. That's the biggest reason.


So expending the time and effort sorely needed to fix a class that has such a large percentage of the customer base is play playing is a bad idea...why exactly?

Sadly we don't have someone like Xelnath to champion the cause. I suspect the Hunter developer is either a lot less passionate about his work or had the Hunter role lumped on to his workload and much prefers working with something else.
Edited by Vandaro on 6/21/2013 4:26 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
9570

"We can't do a class overhaul in the middle of a patch." is just an excuse. They say that but then they don't make the changes when a new xpac rolls around for some unknown reason.


Exactly. I see that excuse time and time again yet when the expansion development period rolls around, nothing is done.
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90 Pandaren Hunter
18440
Nobody played Warlocks. Hunters are the second most played class. That's the biggest reason.

Also they probably don't need it as much. Hunters have solid groundwork for each spec, they just need some abilities/procs/concepts to differentiate them more. Warlocks were just kind of a mess pre-MoP.


Yes, let's not cater to the most people, let's cater to the least.

Even Blizzard is frank about getting the most bang for the buck, which in this case is precisely what hunter fixes would achieve.

It's obvious, however, that in this case they feel that class representation should be evenly spread, which is like expecting sheep to heard themselves into pens based on the greyscale of their coats.

Or expecting students to divide themselves equally across all majors, or for the population of the world to divide itself evenly across all possible occupations.

It's as if they've never heard of personal preference or think that only their design decisions influence people's choice of class or spec, seemingly ignoring individual preferences and biases.

I have leveled every other class, some multiple times, except monk and warlock. My monk is 77 atm. I simply do not gravitate to dark caster, and I especially don't like the caster play style with hard casts and dot tracking. Not because Blizzard didn't make the class enticing enough.

I really like Blizzard but I think they need to step back from their ludicrous social engineering efforts and accept that some classes have very limited appeal, which does not equate to poor design or misunderstanding the wants of your players.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16880
I would like to point out some very good changes for the hunter class that I just saw on MMO:

Readiness now finishes the cooldowns on Rapid Fire, Feign Death, Deterrence, Disengage, and Camouflage when activated (was all Hunter abilities with a base cooldown of less than 5 minutes).

This means that in PvE readiness will no longer have to be juggled and can instead be used for the sole purpose of rapid fire. Good change but it would be nice to see a buff to compensate for the large amount of burst we are losing because of it.

Explosive Trap no longer shares a cooldown with Black Arrow but can no longer activate Lock and Load.

Survival no longer has to choose between knockback explosive trap and black arrow in PvP. A long awaited change.

However, I don't see the point of reducing the duration of hunter's mark in PvP. It doesn't work against stealthers and it is automatically applied in combat so what is the point?
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90 Undead Priest
13205
06/21/2013 09:22 AMPosted by Spinnerdh
I don't see the point of reducing the duration of hunter's mark in PvP. It doesn't work against stealthers


Yes it does.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16880
06/21/2013 11:29 AMPosted by Facehurt
I don't see the point of reducing the duration of hunter's mark in PvP. It doesn't work against stealthers


Yes it does.

The only way it comes into effect is if you enter combat with a feral druid, they kill you or exit combat with the hunter's mark still on them. That is the only time it really works. Other than that using hunter's mark on a feral or rogue that is not stealthed already before entering combat, but that pretty much never happens since there is usually no point to not being stealthed.
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90 Troll Hunter
14735
06/21/2013 11:33 AMPosted by Spinnerdh


Yes it does.

The only way it comes into effect is if you enter combat with a feral druid, they kill you or exit combat with the hunter's mark still on them. That is the only time it really works. Other than that using hunter's mark on a feral or rogue that is not stealthed already before entering combat, but that pretty much never happens since there is usually no point to not being stealthed.

Its so they can re-stealth after killing us sooner, that is all.

Honestly, with how we can apply it, it should be limited to 8 seconds or so, since it is close to a "CC" effect. But it is very limited, so 20 seconds should be fine.

30 was just overtly punishing to stealth classes who actually defeated (or got away) from a hunter. Which could include other Hunters (depending on glyph choice).
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90 Troll Warlock
11450
Blizzard doesn't actually give you things between expansions, they just take them away and buff Aspect of the Hawk to fix things.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16880

The only way it comes into effect is if you enter combat with a feral druid, they kill you or exit combat with the hunter's mark still on them. That is the only time it really works. Other than that using hunter's mark on a feral or rogue that is not stealthed already before entering combat, but that pretty much never happens since there is usually no point to not being stealthed.

Its so they can re-stealth after killing us sooner, that is all.

Honestly, with how we can apply it, it should be limited to 8 seconds or so, since it is close to a "CC" effect. But it is very limited, so 20 seconds should be fine.

30 was just overtly punishing to stealth classes who actually defeated (or got away) from a hunter. Which could include other Hunters (depending on glyph choice).

DK diseases last 30 seconds.
Corruption + pandemic lasts 27 seconds, agony with pandemic lasts 36 seconds.
These are DoTs. I don't see why it is so ridiculous that an ability that is specifically tailored to being anti-stealth (we are balanced around the 5% bonus to damage so all it really is these days is the stealth counter) be stronger than other abilities in that specific area.

Same thing goes for faerie fire. Why is that that some abilities hard counter stealth after combat as well as dealing damage but these abilities specifically meant for the purpose of being anti-stealth need to be nerfed? It just doesn't make sense to me.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16880
06/21/2013 03:46 PMPosted by Teryaki
Blizzard doesn't actually give you things between expansions, they just take them away and buff Aspect of the Hawk to fix things.


I'd like to QFT this.

From the response he gave, I didn't take it as "We aren't going to give a overhaul mid expansion." I took it as "We aren't giving them an overhaul. Period."

But I do agree that hunters do not need the level of overhaul that warlocks got. There are ways to differentiate the class enough as it is without trying to figure out new resource mechanics and so on. Heck, I'd be up for having it so that Survival was the only spec that really used Serpent Sting and make it so MM go Piercing Shot for their DoT and BM just had the pet boosted a bit to compensate maybe.

However, that being said, I still think that the 60, 75, and 90 talents are a big culprit in the samey feel of the three specs. If not that, they only prove to exacerbate the problem.

Most classes have completely different rotations, cooldowns, abilities, etc. that they use in their different specs. Meanwhile hunters only have a few abilities that differentiate each spec. Cobra shot is steady shot... I don't really care what you say about "Well cobra shot does nature damage!", it is the same exact thing as steady shot as it fills the same exact role.

BM: Kill command, Bestial wrath, focus fire
MM: Aimed shot, Chimera shot
SV: Explosive shot, Black arrow

Those are the only dps abilities that hunters get in each of their separate specs. Then even after that the majority of their time is spent using abilities like arcane shot and steady/cobra shot with just a little bit of those other abilities sprinkled in.

Of all the classes that need an overhaul right now, it is hunters. But of course blizzard will just completely ignore the problem and probably go redesign warriors or something next xpac and then say "We feel bla bla bla warriors and bla bla bla hunters are fine bla bla bla most played class in the game bla bla bla we care about hunters so bla bla bla removing beast lore because of button bloat bla bla bla."
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