hpally stat weights

100 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Idk how I feel about that haste, I think geting a little extra INT would be better.
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90 Human Paladin
7020
although this is true hps wise but the rng nature of the winds i was being pushed into the whips or into the raid so the problem was i would die trying to get a HR or DL cast out, believe it or not ~1.5k haste made alot of difference in this problem.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6510
Grats!
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90 Draenei Paladin
12580
I don't understand why people think critical strike rating is at all valuable for a holy paladin. Even on the PTR, Mastery is still supreme.

I mean, honestly... do none of the hpallies on these forums read the MMO-Champions and see the posts that Aladya makes?

Btw, for those who don't know--Aladya is a holy paladin that raids with Method--read, one of the top world guilds.

If he's saying mastery is better than all other stats, it stands to reason he's done all the math and has figured out that it's optimal.

Seriously, crit rating. Ick.

As for haste versus mastery.... Honestly, with the right gear, you hit a couple Haste breakpoints passively even reforging haste off of it.

For example, with my gear (which is worse than the OPs) I still hit the 25% breakpoint of haste for Eternal Flame.

But if you switch it around and go Haste > Mastery, you are lowering your thoroughput because the only spell even truly affected by haste is Eternal Flame---since you get near instant DLs, HLs, and HRs with the Infusion of Light procs.

I still don't understand why so many hpallies are so gung-ho about crit. Just... no.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6510
Appeal to authority? That's weak, especially since there most likely are dozens (if not hundreds) of players out there who'd put Aladya to shame.
Edited by Lackjester on 6/29/2013 11:48 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6710
Mitigation, LFR padding and overall badness: Mastery


dis guy

Crit gives instant rewards


RNG give instant rewards? since when?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6510
RNG give instant rewards? since when?


When comparing it to mastery's reactive absorbs, it's not particularly hard to figure out what he meant by that.

In answer to your (I assume rhetorical) question: since the dawn of time.
Edited by Lackjester on 6/29/2013 12:05 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11205
I don't understand why people think critical strike rating is at all valuable for a holy paladin. Even on the PTR, Mastery is still supreme.

I mean, honestly... do none of the hpallies on these forums read the MMO-Champions and see the posts that Aladya makes?

Btw, for those who don't know--Aladya is a holy paladin that raids with Method--read, one of the top world guilds.

If he's saying mastery is better than all other stats, it stands to reason he's done all the math and has figured out that it's optimal.

Seriously, crit rating. Ick.

As for haste versus mastery.... Honestly, with the right gear, you hit a couple Haste breakpoints passively even reforging haste off of it.

For example, with my gear (which is worse than the OPs) I still hit the 25% breakpoint of haste for Eternal Flame.

But if you switch it around and go Haste > Mastery, you are lowering your thoroughput because the only spell even truly affected by haste is Eternal Flame---since you get near instant DLs, HLs, and HRs with the Infusion of Light procs.

I still don't understand why so many hpallies are so gung-ho about crit. Just... no.


And yet there was a guy who did the math (Roth) and mathematically determined crit was better in 25s after 5.3. I'm back to using a mastery build myself, but depending on playstyle and other factors, there *are* other options. And depending on your goals, some pallies may like the crit/haste playstyle better. The OP was using mastery and looking for a way to get his heals off faster and have them hit harder. Nothing wrong with trying different stats out and seeing how they work. Sometimes you just need to be able to hard-cast faster!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11870
I mean, honestly... do none of the hpallies on these forums read the MMO-Champions and see the posts that Aladya makes?

Btw, for those who don't know--Aladya is a holy paladin that raids with Method--read, one of the top world guilds.

If he's saying mastery is better than all other stats, it stands to reason he's done all the math and has figured out that it's optimal.

Seriously, crit rating. Ick.


Stop please. We come to the forums to challenge what we know and ask questions about what we don't. Yes, I do read the posts, yes I know who you are talking about. The only thing it has proved is that its optimal for him. That doesn't mean it is for me and my raid and its healer comp.

For this weeks raid I went ahead and tried out a Crit build and I learned that, it doesn't really matter. They both yielded the same results. They really balanced out very well.

Here is my Ji-kun Normal with a Crit build:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/moar1pjrgsu3xm1u/sum/healingDone/?s=5710&e=6104

Here is my Ji-kun Normal with a Mastery Build from the week previous:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/amg9zre5q84i0tjp/sum/healingDone/?s=6932&e=7329

You can see where Crit affected my Illuminated Healing, dropping it by nearly 10%, but you can also see those same numbers accounted for in larger actual heals.

So essentially, at my gear level its pretty interchangeable.
Edited by Ceresc on 6/29/2013 4:37 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
12580
Appeal to authority? That's weak, especially since there most likely are dozens (if not hundreds) of players out there who'd put Aladya to shame.


Really? Name a few, then, rather than making claims like this without any substantiated information to back it up.



And yet there was a guy who did the math (Roth) and mathematically determined crit was better in 25s after 5.3. I'm back to using a mastery build myself, but depending on playstyle and other factors, there *are* other options. And depending on your goals, some pallies may like the crit/haste playstyle better. The OP was using mastery and looking for a way to get his heals off faster and have them hit harder. Nothing wrong with trying different stats out and seeing how they work. Sometimes you just need to be able to hard-cast faster!


Haste only really affects our Eternal Flame breakpoint, because our Infusion of Light procs mean that we rarely have to hard-cast at the full 1.5-2 second cast time of DL or HR. As for heals hitting harder--absorbs from mastery prevent that.

As for the person who did the math--I'd like to see it, because 90% of the math out there supports mastery.

Personally, I like the haste playstyle better than the mastery one, but I'm also not going to hurt my raid team by using a sub-optimal stat when mastery has proven itself to be superior.



Stop please. We come to the forums to challenge what we know and ask questions about what we don't. Yes, I do read the posts, yes I know who you are talking about. The only thing it has proved is that its optimal for him. That doesn't mean it is for me and my raid and its healer comp.

For this weeks raid I went ahead and tried out a Crit build and I learned that, it doesn't really matter. They both yielded the same results. They really balanced out very well.

Here is my Ji-kun Normal with a Crit build:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/moar1pjrgsu3xm1u/sum/healingDone/?s=5710&e=6104

Here is my Ji-kun Normal with a Mastery Build from the week previous:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/amg9zre5q84i0tjp/sum/healingDone/?s=6932&e=7329

You can see where Crit affected my Illuminated Healing, dropping it by nearly 10%, but you can also see those same numbers accounted for in larger actual heals.

So essentially, at my gear level its pretty interchangeable.


Looking at the two different logs, it's rather inconsistent to compare a fight where one week you two-healed it and the next week you three-healed it. Three-healing automatically means you do less overall healing and it's not really a good way to determine how well the two stats do against one another.

That being said, when Illuminated Healing is always #1 on your charts--dropping the % of healing it does by stacking something else seems counterproductive.

WoL shows the same for every hpally--Illuminated Healing is always #1. So it stands to reason that Mastery is stronger than haste or crit.

Even then, hitting haste breakpoints for Eternal Flame still happens without stacking it. Like I said before, I'm at the 25% breakpoint even after reforging out of haste into mastery.

And I never think trying out secondary stats to see which one works the best is a bad idea, but at this point there have been enough logs posted to draw the obvious conclusion that, since IH is always at the top of our healing charts, that Mastery is the best choice.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11870
06/30/2013 08:26 AMPosted by Kyáza
Looking at the two different logs, it's rather inconsistent to compare a fight where one week you two-healed it and the next week you three-healed it. Three-healing automatically means you do less overall healing and it's not really a good way to determine how well the two stats do against one another.


It was actually 3 healed, the other druid just spent a lot more time off the platform learning how to do nests. Though I am aware a more constant environment would have been better, it isn't always possible, and as such, the numbers are very similar to the 3rd healer on the mastery test, enough so that its effect I consider negligble.

06/30/2013 08:26 AMPosted by Kyáza
because our Infusion of Light procs mean that we rarely have to hard-cast at the full 1.5-2 second cast time of DL or HR.


Infusion of Light procs come from Holy Shock crits. Meaning that Crit does have a value.

That being said, when Illuminated Healing is always #1 on your charts--dropping the % of healing it does by stacking something else seems counterproductive.

WoL shows the same for every hpally--Illuminated Healing is always #1. So it stands to reason that Mastery is stronger than haste or crit.

Even then, hitting haste breakpoints for Eternal Flame still happens without stacking it. Like I said before, I'm at the 25% breakpoint even after reforging out of haste into mastery.

And I never think trying out secondary stats to see which one works the best is a bad idea, but at this point there have been enough logs posted to draw the obvious conclusion that, since IH is always at the top of our healing charts, that Mastery is the best choice.


What you aren't understanding is that these questions of Crit stacking have popped up due to Blizzards intended nerf to Eternal Flame/ Illuminated Healing. We are prepping for what is coming, not what we have now. With the direct nerf on 5.3 and the upcoming knee slicer in 5.4, Holy Paladins are looking for ways to adapt. Crit is already competitive despite being RNG, so it only makes sense to question stat weights on the horizon. And now is the time to play with those numbers.
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90 Human Paladin
2900
For live servers? Full mastery build + as much spirit as you can get from gear.

Haste and Crit are nice in theory; but mastery is really the saving grace of paladins for now. Spirit lets you cast more Holy Radiance spam to get mastery shields up before you oom.

Trinkets are the big answer to longer fights or mana problems; I swap out Chalace for 530 Talisman for long fights (I imagine with another 4-5 ilvls I probably won't need to do that anymore either).

For 5.4? No one knows yet, so there is no point in speculating. It's months away and there WILL be changes to our spec; regardless of what all those on the forums say.
Edited by Madlife on 6/30/2013 10:48 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
12580


Infusion of Light procs come from Holy Shock crits. Meaning that Crit does have a value.

What you aren't understanding is that these questions of Crit stacking have popped up due to Blizzards intended nerf to Eternal Flame/ Illuminated Healing. We are prepping for what is coming, not what we have now. With the direct nerf on 5.3 and the upcoming knee slicer in 5.4, Holy Paladins are looking for ways to adapt. Crit is already competitive despite being RNG, so it only makes sense to question stat weights on the horizon. And now is the time to play with those numbers.


Yes, Infusion comes from Holy Shock crits. I never said they didn't. But holy shock already has an in-built crit chance of 25%

As for 5.3 vs 5.4, the OP wasn't talking about 5.4. but current content on live.

5.4 is still up in the air, but some preliminary math suggests that Mastery is still more viable than crit or haste, even with the changes to EF and IH.

From MMO-Champions posted by Aladya from Method :

"Its not viable unless you're solo healing 5 mans, which i guess is about your skill level sadly. You need to stop posting this crap before someone starts believing(I'm actually shocked you're not using the Glyph of Illumination as well).

Understand that a lot of our spells are either not affected by haste, and that does that do are easily sniped+even if they weren't snipped or overhealed at all they would BARELY outweigh the loss of mastery(on those spells, per total u still lose). Also understand that while haste does affect RPPM trinkets, due to their random nature and internal protection its very likely that someone with 10% less haste then you will proc them 20% more then you just because luck shined for him.

Its all fun and games, but if you would be gemmed/reforged properly even with that fairly bad choice of gear(4 p t15 instead of mastery gloves/legs) you could have 3% more mastery and that would help you a lot more.

@OP. Even with the nerf to EF, Mastery still remains more valuable then crit as least as of the current PTR patch."
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11870
Yes, Infusion comes from Holy Shock crits. I never said they didn't. But holy shock already has an in-built crit chance of 25%

As for 5.3 vs 5.4, the OP wasn't talking about 5.4. but current content on live.


Yes but I was...
Edited by Ceresc on 6/30/2013 2:14 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
12580
Yes, Infusion comes from Holy Shock crits. I never said they didn't. But holy shock already has an in-built crit chance of 25%

As for 5.3 vs 5.4, the OP wasn't talking about 5.4. but current content on live.


Yes but I was...


I understand that, but 5.4 isn't coming out for awhile and there is no telling how stat weights will change before it goes live.

It seems counterproductive to speculate *right now* on whether crit or mastery will be better in 5.4 because they aren't done tweaking everything on the PTR, so there's no telling what will be better then.

As of right now--on both live and PTR--mastery is still considerably better than crit--if you insist on discussing both.
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100 Draenei Paladin
20560
Haste is worthless to stack. You can always spend more mana at this point in time.

Full-blown spirit isn't as valuable due to much less burst healing potential.

Mastery is situationally strong. It's stronger overall hps in many situations, but it's weaker in burst situations.

Int is decent, but it lacks the utility and slightly better mana longevity of crit.

Crit is a good mix of overall hps, mana longevity, and (most importantly) burst healing potential. For some reason, many people seem to have forgotten about Infusion of Light, and this particular characteristic is extra important now that Holy Shock has an innate 25% crit bonus. I heavily prefer crit right now as well because it offers far more viability in high-movement situations such as Lei Shen, where paladins need every iota of assistance as possible to keep up with other healers.

If you want to top hps meters, go with mastery. If you want to heal well in the situations where it's needed most, mastery shouldn't be your choice as of this patch.

I mean, honestly... do none of the hpallies on these forums read the MMO-Champions and see the posts that Aladya makes?


I stopped mirroring top-end paladins after Firelands, when many top-end paladins completely ignored low spirit builds even though low spirit builds absolutely blew everything else out of the water.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
Agreed with Eloderung on mastery and crit.

And if the EF changes stay haste will become even more worthless.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12430
I 2 heal a lot of fights with a resto druid. I feel like the burst from the haste (5 ticks of EF) > crit build works well with him. While I have not downed some of the more difficult fights, we have made it to the last phase of fights like heroic iron qon with our low DPS and 2 healing wasn't an issue. Even able to solo the first couple of fights on normal, almost did Megaera as well but I didn't have the mana on the last rampage.

The cookie-cutter spirit > mastery build just feels harder to top people up, the druid doesn't have a lot of burst on spread fights. Not everyone has the same strats/comps/playstyles, not everyone is gonna benefit from copying another player.
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