hpally stat weights

90 Troll Shaman
17270
The cookie-cutter spirit > mastery build just feels harder to top people up, the druid doesn't have a lot of burst on spread fights. Not everyone has the same strats/comps/playstyles, not everyone is gonna benefit from copying another player.

Well, spirit > mastery this tier has been replaced with, in ToT gear:
Spirit to 9-13k (w/ meta+horridon's) > Mastery > Haste to 25%* > Crit > more Spirit > more Haste

that's the current cookie cutter AFAIK. Nobody really differs that much from it if you really think about it. Except those who go crit>mastery.
*nearly unavoidable in ToT itemization, once you get close you might as well finish it

Mastery provides less front end burst but provides more back end burst reduction. But doesn't buff light's hammer.

On the previous page I explained why/when mastery is so good. Let's say you are getting 33% healing done on recount/WoL from mastery and you have 30% mastery. That means you did 66% raw effective healing without mastery and mastery boosted that healing by 50%. So for each %mastery you have you got a 1.66% increase in healing done per mastery. It takes 480 rating per 1.66% increase. Gaining addition will be subject to typical stat weight diminishing returns.

Crit takes 600 rating to per 1.00% increase. In addition to infusion of light. IoL is effectively a 1 sec cast time reduction after GCD, 1% crit provides 1 sec cast time reduction once every 600 seconds if you cast HS right on CD... for a 0.16% cast time reduction overall per 1% crit... roughly translated into haste that's worth about 70 haste rating. Subtract out the "70 haste rating" and you get 530 rating is a 1.00% increase pre-diminishing returns.

On overall meters mastery will typically win b/c overheal. In terms of raid burst (light's hammer!), that's not something I'm ready to comment on, it's tricky.

What I do know is that ilvl next tier will cause HPS to up another 30-40% next tier, while HP only goes up 15-20%... overheal numbers will only get bigger favoring Mastery. The EF HoT-mastery nerf though pushes things towards Crit. Therefore... people are largely ??? on 5.4 stats.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6510
@Kyaza: In the quote you posted, are you sure Aladya was referring to Crit and not haste?


Well, spirit > mastery this tier has been replaced with, in ToT gear:
Spirit to 9-13k (w/ meta+horridon's) > Mastery > Haste to 25%* > Crit > more Spirit > more Haste

that's the current cookie cutter AFAIK. Nobody really differs that much from it if you really think about it. Except those who go crit>mastery.

Cookie-cutters are to healing builds what pop music is to music.

Mastery provides less front end burst but provides more back end burst reduction. But doesn't buff light's hammer.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Light's Hammer does work with Mastery. As for burst, Mastery only provides "burst" on predetermined damage, at an exorbitant mana cost. Same could be said about Holy Avenger's edge over Divine Purpose.

This ain't necessarily a bad thing obviously. Sometimes you need that extra edge at all costs. In general, though, it is a bad thing.

On the previous page I explained why/when mastery is so good. Let's say you are getting 33% healing done on recount/WoL from mastery and you have 30% mastery. That means you did 66% raw effective healing without mastery and mastery boosted that healing by 50%. So for each %mastery you have you got a 1.66% increase in healing done per mastery. It takes 480 rating per 1.66% increase. Gaining addition will be subject to typical stat weight diminishing returns.

I'm very far from a mathematical genius, so perhaps it's a problem on my part, but this math appears completely absurd to me.

Why'd you end up jumping from (Mastery=33%) to (Mastery=50%)?

I don't follow your reasoning. Yes, you can pump out extra mastery healing by spamming heals at all times to build shields, especially when you're over-geared, but that comes at a huge price. All you end up doing is expending a ridiculous amount of resources in order to snipe your friends' heals. Padding, I call it.

We all know that one guy who spams HR in LFR and ends up OOM in the middle of the fight with 70% mastery on his meter, then wipes because the other healers can't carry him for last phase.

Crit takes 600 rating to per 1.00% increase. In addition to infusion of light. IoL is effectively a 1 sec cast time reduction after GCD, 1% crit provides 1 sec cast time reduction once every 600 seconds if you cast HS right on CD... for a 0.16% cast time reduction overall per 1% crit... roughly translated into haste that's worth about 70 haste rating. Subtract out the "70 haste rating" and you get 530 rating is a 1.00% increase pre-diminishing returns.

Crit requires 600 per 1.00% + Meta (if non-legendary) + IoL + Beacon transfer + 4-Piece + Bubble synergy. All are hard to quantify accurately but Beacon, by itself, seems enough to overshadow Mastery on pure healing potential. IoL procs are only there to pick up the slack on effective healing and to make Crit significantly stronger than mastery on raw healing. Without forgetting the small Holy Power generation aspect of the proc.

What I do know is that ilvl next tier will cause HPS to up another 30-40% next tier, while HP only goes up 15-20%... overheal numbers will only get bigger favoring Mastery.

That doesn't sound right, although I don't deny it being possible. How are health pools, overall damage taken and max damage taken, going to fare in comparison? What are the mechanics going to be like? Where'd you get those numbers?

For optimal performance, in challenging fights:
Finely-tuned mitigation (which isn't required in 5.3) > Raw healing > Mitigation.
Edited by Lackjester on 7/2/2013 1:54 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
12580
@lackjester Yes I'm 100% sure as the thread it was posted on was entirely about the viability of crit stacking.

Also, you're correct - Light's Hammer does work with Mastery. As does Holy Prism.

AFAIK, it's only bugged and not working with mastery on the PTR. Not on live.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6510
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1313276-Holy-Paladin-Crit-Stacking?p=21615881#post21615881

Everything but that last sentence is about haste. Not that it really matters; Aladya sounds like a subpar healer with great gear... Elode knows what's up though; I'd bring him over what appears to be the Justin Bieber (for lack of a better example) of holy paladins.
Edited by Lackjester on 7/2/2013 2:52 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11870
@lackjester Yes I'm 100% sure as the thread it was posted on was entirely about the viability of crit stacking.


Everything but that last sentence is about haste. Not that it really matters... Aladya sounds like a subpar healer with great gear... Elode knows what's up though; I'd take him over what appears to be the Justin Bieber (for lack of a better example) of holy paladins.


The thread is about Crit stacking. The Als response was to a comment on haste builds. Totally in agreement with Lackjester here.

Here is what Crit stacking does for him:
http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/us/Lightbringer/eloderung/

Also, I should know. Its my thread......
Edited by Ceresc on 7/2/2013 2:07 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
12580
Honestly, there is no point in continuing this. Mastery is stronger than Crit. You're free to disagree.

Show me some math to support your theory of Crit > Mastery before you start throwing out nonsensical statements.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11870
06/23/2013 04:11 AMPosted by Ceresc
I'm actually quite curious about how Crit stacking will work out for my raid group. Since I'm just messing around in normals, I figured I'll test it out and see if I like it.


06/29/2013 04:37 PMPosted by Ceresc
For this weeks raid I went ahead and tried out a Crit build and I learned that, it doesn't really matter. They both yielded the same results.


Honestly, there is no point in continuing this. Mastery is stronger than Crit. You're free to disagree.

Show me some math to support your theory of Crit > Mastery before you start throwing out nonsensical statements.


Mastery and Crit are both viable specs as I determined from personal testing, and I never intended to state that Crit was better than Mastery, just that it was viable. With a Mastery build, even the most average of players are going to pull off some nice numbers. But based on play style and healer comps, Crit can and does pull off some impressive numbers as well.

The fact is that Mastery and Crit work very well together and the difference in their healing is a difference in requirement and playstyle, as stated above, not numbers. If you are worried about meters, then you should be stacking Mastery and EF blanketing.

At my gear level, however, it balances out to be almost completely even. With my Crit build barely pulling ahead. (Though this could be due to fluctuations in play) Meaning that you should feel free to use whichever build you prefer/ works for your raid group, I happen to prefer Crit right now. I like the ping my WA gives me every time I proc IoL.

Mastery Build:

Meg: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/amg9zre5q84i0tjp/sum/healingDone/?s=5774&e=6177

Council: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/amg9zre5q84i0tjp/sum/healingDone/?s=2355&e=2749

Crit Build:

Meg: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a2kwpn6ok8xxomnt/sum/healingDone/?s=3660&e=4062

Council: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a2kwpn6ok8xxomnt/sum/healingDone/?s=1134&e=1429
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90 Human Paladin
15480
07/03/2013 04:36 AMPosted by Ceresc
At my gear level, however, it balances out to be almost completely even.


Was suprised that even at my gear level i seemed to do more healing with IH last night after dumping most of my mastery and stacking crit. Felt pretty good as well. GoI had some nice returns as well. Would like to try to push 35% crit with raid buffs.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
07/02/2013 06:33 AMPosted by Lackjester
On the previous page I explained why/when mastery is so good. Let's say you are getting 33% healing done on recount/WoL from mastery and you have 30% mastery. That means you did 66% raw effective healing without mastery and mastery boosted that healing by 50%. So for each %mastery you have you got a 1.66% increase in healing done per mastery. It takes 480 rating per 1.66% increase. Gaining addition will be subject to typical stat weight diminishing returns.

I'm very far from a mathematical genius, so perhaps it's a problem on my part, but this math appears completely absurd to me.

Why'd you end up jumping from (Mastery=33%) to (Mastery=50%)?

I don't follow your reasoning... (abrev'ed)

Crit takes 600 rating to per 1.00% increase. In addition to infusion of light. IoL is effectively a 1 sec cast time reduction after GCD, 1% crit provides 1 sec cast time reduction once every 600 seconds if you cast HS right on CD... for a 0.16% cast time reduction overall per 1% crit... roughly translated into haste that's worth about 70 haste rating. Subtract out the "70 haste rating" and you get 530 rating is a 1.00% increase pre-diminishing returns.

Crit requires 600 per 1.00% + Meta (if non-legendary) + IoL + Beacon transfer + 4-Piece + Bubble synergy. All are hard to quantify accurately but Beacon, by itself, seems enough to overshadow Mastery on pure healing potential. IoL procs are only there to pick up the slack on effective healing and to make Crit significantly stronger than mastery on raw healing. Without forgetting the small Holy Power generation aspect of the proc.

What I do know is that ilvl next tier will cause HPS to up another 30-40% next tier, while HP only goes up 15-20%... overheal numbers will only get bigger favoring Mastery.

That doesn't sound right, although I don't deny it being possible. How are health pools, overall damage taken and max damage taken, going to fare in comparison? What are the mechanics going to be like? Where'd you get those numbers?

For optimal performance, in challenging fights:
Finely-tuned mitigation (which isn't required in 5.3) > Raw healing > Mitigation.

First off. How 33% of your healing being mastery means mastery is increasing your healing output by 50%.
Let's say mastery was completely removed from the game on a fight you previously did 30M healing on. You now would do 20M healing. If mastery was reintroduced again you'd gain 10M healing, which would be a 50% increase in EFFECTIVE healing.

Second off. Crit synergy. Crit provides more raw throughput. It's totally true. The only issue is that IN PRACTICE, there is overhealing, and crit increases the value of things that overheal and things that don't. Mastery only increases IH which barely overheals.

Third. HP, Damage incoming, Healing Output... scaling. The game is totally $#%&'ed. Let's just say that having 6-7 players in a 25 man raid that have 6-8M HP in a few seconds at most CD's... it's going to make them basically have to do 90% of health attacks constantly in next tiers heroic modes. Boss damage is a reflection of the healer HPS of the players fighting the boss, never forget that. The reason why HPS scales faster than HP is because HP scales with only stamina, while HPS scales with Int which then gets mulitplied by the ~9k additional secondary stats players will have (ilvl580 H-TF 2/2 gear from H-SoO ... /facepalm).
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90 Draenei Paladin
12580
@ Ceresc

I'd really like to see logs with your Mastery vs your Crit build with you
A) Running with either 2 or 3 healers, not 1 of each kind
and
B) Running with the *same* 2 or 3 healers

That way the variables are reduced a little, in order to make the two more comparable.

That being said, with your current mastery, with Might you go up to about 33% correct?

Whereas, with crit buffs, you go up to ~30%, making your holy shock crit chance around 45% (with the 25% additional from passive)

Basically, what I see you doing is running a hybrid Mastery/Crit build with the two roughly balancing each other out.

But Crit is still incredibly RNG based, and there are other variables to consider besides the 2 above to really determine if running with higher crit is worth the cost.

I.e. Same fight, exact same damage going out, exact same raid composition, exact same cooldown usage --- something that is going to be pretty hard to mirror in order to really test the other out.

But, if you put a static test like that together, sometimes Crit will seem to outshine Mastery because the numbers work on paper. But the RNG nature of Crit means that, in the long run, Mastery will win out because there is no RNG to deal with and there is no issues of overhealing that come up.

It's one of those "Theoretically, it seems amazing, but in reality, it doesn't work as well."
Theory can only hold up until put into practice and practice says that Mastery is better than Crit.

And I won't be convinced it's viable for you, either, until you can show me two logs with the same healers on the same fight with 2 healing or 3 healing because that many variables makes it difficult to judge whether the two really are close together or not. The fluctuation in the numbers of the other healers on those logs that you posted are too varied to make any definite judgment at this point in time.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
It's one of those "Theoretically, it seems amazing, but in reality, it doesn't work as well." Theory can only hold up until put into practice and practice says that Mastery is better than Crit.


Really not worth looking at someones logs. Would suggest trying it for yourself and see how it does. This week i dumped everything into crit. Ran the same exact comp 2 healing with a MW'er. My numbers were better as well.

I also ran with GoI and was never really mana starved throughout the night. Only cost like 1k to switch everything over.

Probably going to stick with it as well as crit is looking strong in 5.4 as well.
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90 Draenei Paladin
12580
07/03/2013 01:47 PMPosted by Taelaus
It's one of those "Theoretically, it seems amazing, but in reality, it doesn't work as well." Theory can only hold up until put into practice and practice says that Mastery is better than Crit.


Really not worth looking at someones logs. Would suggest trying it for yourself and see how it does. This week i dumped everything into crit. Ran the same exact comp 2 healing with a MW'er. My numbers were better as well.



Yeah, I am aware that it's better to look at my own logs. At the moment, though, I'm between guilds due to internal drama, so I need a more stable environment in order to do that. Other ppl's logs will have to suffice for now :P
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11870
I'd really like to see logs with your Mastery vs your Crit build with you
A) Running with either 2 or 3 healers, not 1 of each kind
and
B) Running with the *same* 2 or 3 healers


Then you'll have to ignore the Council fight and just go with the Meg fight. Just think, "Iite is Broc and Broc is Iite" the two are pretty interchangeable.

Whereas, with crit buffs, you go up to ~30%, making your holy shock crit chance around 45% (with the 25% additional from passive)

Basically, what I see you doing is running a hybrid Mastery/Crit build with the two roughly balancing each other out.


No, I reforged spirit to Crit as well so I run 58% crit (passive) and 32% Mastery. With how balanced its turned out, I'll probably try reforging out of mastery next week and go pure Crit build. Just to see what the numbers look like.

07/03/2013 11:23 AMPosted by Kyáza
But the RNG nature of Crit means that, in the long run, Mastery will win out because there is no RNG to deal with and there is no issues of overhealing that come up.


And over healing still gives you mastery. Which at my gear level still means a good chunk.

And I won't be convinced it's viable for you, either, until you can show me two logs with the same healers on the same fight with 2 healing or 3 healing because that many variables makes it difficult to judge whether the two really are close together or not. The fluctuation in the numbers of the other healers on those logs that you posted are too varied to make any definite judgment at this point in time.


Well, no. My logs say that Crit is absolutely viable because it works in multiple situations. What it doesn't say is that Crit is better than Mastery, which was never something that I was arguing for 5.3. In 5.0 Mastery is boss, but it doesn't mean Crit isn't viable.

As well to note, on these fights, even without GoI I was never mana starved, even after reforging spirit to Crit. But the musical my weak auras gave me? *love my sonar pings*

I will however, keep doing more testing. I believe the RL is actually replacing both druids so grrr on the constants but my curiosity gets the best of me.
Edited by Ceresc on 7/5/2013 7:19 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12770
@ Ceresc Sorry it has taken me so long to reply to you---was dealing with moving to a new guild and all.

Anyway.

Any secondary stat can be viable when a good player is using them, just like any good player can deal with hard nerfs to their class. I don't have issues with you in particular, because you are using realistic means to measure the results. There are others on here who just say stuff with no idea what they are talking about and then get the rest of the hpally community confused (i.e. those who are newish to hpally healing).

Personally, I'd say use a Spirit/Mastery build if you don't understand the in-depth workings of the way hpally healing works and leave crit/haste/hybrid testing to people who do. And don't comment on crit vs haste vs mastery unless you have solid backing with factual information (i.e. logs) (@ Ceresc, this is not addressed to you, just to clarify that).

Using a hybrid Mastery/Crit build by reforging out of spirit but leaving Mastery alone seems much more interesting than a full Crit build because you don't lose the punch of your shields. You said you had over 58% passive Crit this way, and Crit has never been a good stat choice unless you're able to get over that 50% mark.

The synergy between the two might be worth testing out, if I can find a way to reforge out of spirit without losing too much of it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11870
The synergy between the two might be worth testing out, if I can find a way to reforge out of spirit without losing too much of it.


Mana is not bad at all on normal mode. On heroics, timing your Torrent/Trinket/ DP and spell usage will require some finesse, but nothing too complicated.

Also congratz on the move. Welcome to the Horde!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12770
Yeah on normal modes I wouldn't see any issue using the mastery/crit hybrid. But at the heroic level, it might be a bit risky depending on gear levels and whether or not you're 2 or 3 healing the majority of fights.

And thanks. I'm still getting used to being on this side :P Everything is backwards!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11870
Yeah on normal modes I wouldn't see any issue using the mastery/crit hybrid. But at the heroic level, it might be a bit risky depending on gear levels and whether or not you're 2 or 3 healing the majority of fights.

And thanks. I'm still getting used to being on this side :P Everything is backwards!


Finally got the guild to try heroics. Doing Jin'rokh tonight. So i'll finally be able to test it out.

You should have seen me when I first switched. I was forcefully booted from many alliance zones lol.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
There are many viable builds regarding stats right now which is good. Now going into 5.4 and how the current PTR is that might drastically change but we will see.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12770
Yeah on normal modes I wouldn't see any issue using the mastery/crit hybrid. But at the heroic level, it might be a bit risky depending on gear levels and whether or not you're 2 or 3 healing the majority of fights.

And thanks. I'm still getting used to being on this side :P Everything is backwards!


Finally got the guild to try heroics. Doing Jin'rokh tonight. So i'll finally be able to test it out.

You should have seen me when I first switched. I was forcefully booted from many alliance zones lol.


Haha I haven't yet been booted from alliance zones, since I've been hyper-aware of where they are. :P Give it another week or two and I'm sure it will start happening again. My main issue is that everything is backwards! The Shrine portal and bank rooms are on the wrong side! >.>

Let me know how that test goes for you tonight. We're working on Lei Shen tonight.
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