5.4 Holy Paladin Opinions, Feedback and Ideas

90 Blood Elf Paladin
13605
Before I begin, I would like to mention a few things. The following post largely pertains to Holy in a PvE situation, and not PvP. I realize changing a spec mechanic with one side in mind can have grave consequences for the other side, but this post is to shed light on the current condition of Holy in PvE. I would also like to note on the devs' recurring mantra of emphatically stating that "HPS isn't a very accurate measure of a spec's healing potential". There are arguments for and against this, but ultimately many "measurements" of a healing spec's "healing potential" correlate with HPS, like reactive healing and mana conservation. Player enjoyment and originality of a spec's playstyle is not included in these, but I will discuss how even this attribute is now lacking in the Holy Paladin specialization.

Our Current "Situation"
Currently, I can think of no situation where Holy paladin capabilities are on par or exceed other classes in terms of HPS and/or the reactive healing of other healer specs:

    ---Heavy raid AoE damage situations where the raid is stacked within a 10 yard radius of each other are the only place that paladins provide substantial HPS. However, this is still not on par with other healer's cooldowns and mechanics (Tranquility, mushrooms, blank rejuv, spirit shell, uplift, atonement) especially considering our aoe healing range and target limitations (10 yards on Holy Radiance, diminished healing beyond 6 targets on Holy Radiance, 6 target cap on Light of Dawn).
    ---In heavy raid AoE damage situations where the raid is not stacked and spread out, holy paladins are currently at their worst. Holy Radiance has a 10 yard radius restriction. Light of Dawn is 30, but only affects 6 targets (a little over 1/5 of player targets in 25 man) and requires Holy Power to use. We currently have no useful means of Holy Power generation (something that will be mentioned later) in this scenario, as we will be at ranged (no CS). Leaving single target heals, which also don't generate HoPo except expensive heals on the beacon. I find myself overhealing the melee stack in situations like this with Holy Radiance just for the hopo generation, because no other spells are reactive enough to impact spread out aoe raid damage.
    ---Finally, random sporadic damage on raid members. Obviously the place for our single target heals. However, thanks to t14 set bonus nerf, holy paladins can't help contribute to these heals except maybe one-fourth of the time (that time being when holy shock is up, infusion of light has procced from a holy shock, or enough HoPo for WoG/EF). This wasn't so bad in 5.0-5.2 because shortened Holy Shock cooldown from t14 4 piece gave us much more fluidity in our reactive healing (one of the biggest problems that I will discuss later) mostly because of more Infusion of Light procs and a decent amount of HoPo regen from Holy Shock that did not require standing in melee for Crusader Strikes (especially with the amount of boss mechanics that specifically target range these days, making it extremely dangerous for ranged and healers to stand in melee a majority of the time).

So where do Holy Paladins belong if they are found comparatively lacking in the 3 most common intensive healing situations in raids? Is spreading 1 HoPo EFs (now much more slowly) the intent? Probably not.

The Big Problems
Again, the nerfs in 5.3 left Holy Paladins in a condition to show where they need to be improved for 5.4. The t14 4 piece set bonus nerf had much larger consequences than what was probably intended because Holy Shock currently and has been the keystone to the spec in this expansion. This is because Holy Shock not only plays a big role in our HoPo regen, but is our second most reactive single target heal (behind WoG/EF, which are HoPo dependent) increases the fluidity of our other heals through IoL, and plays a part in our AoE healing (In 5.3 more than ever). All of these aspects were affected with the t14 set bonus nerf.

The other big nerf was Mastery: Illuminated Healing. I understand the intent here, but the wrong measures were taken. Nerfing from 12% to 10% wasn't just a simple 2% nerf, but I believe turned out to be~16% nerf due to the scaling coefficient (needs source). And guess what, Illuminated Healing is still responsible for the biggest chunk of our healing. If the intent was to decrease the amount of healing contributed by Illuminated Healing and it's overhealing immunity, then the amount healed by our other spells should have been buffed simultaneously with the IH nerf. If the the intent was to decrease the HPS of Holy Paladins, including the shield of IH. altogether, the t14 4 piece nerf would have been more than enough (and still probably too much for the reasons stated above). Either way, the Mastery nerf missed the mark.

If you take all this and boil it down, you'll find the biggest issues Holy Paladins are facing are the following:

    ---Low Holy Power Generation: This wasn't a problem when Holy Shock was on a lower cooldown. However, in non-stacked situations, our only means of holy power generation outside of holy shock are now expensive (and often overhealing) spells on the Beacon, Holy Radiance (should we be using an expensive AoE spell just to heal 1 or 2 targets for the sake of generating a holy power?) or using Crusader Strike (often not viable because many bosses have mechanics that target ranged only and keep them out of melee). I think most Holy Paladins would want to see more HoPo regen in to feel less Clunky. Which brings me to...
    ---Holy Paladins feel clunky: reduced IoL procs from t14 nerf has left us with casting single target heals with long cast times a lot more often. It personally stresses me out having to cancelcast so much because the target I just waited 1.5 seconds to heal was topped to full right before my cast went off, over and over again. There is no contributing there. To add insult to injury, the contribution I could add by putting my heal on top of the "1st place heal" was nerfed in 5.3. Combined with no HoPo regen from single target heals on the 9 or 24 non-beacons in the raid, I find myself using Holy Radiance a lot more in inappropriate situations, a lot out of helplessness. We need more fluidity in the spec to prevent our shields and smart heals from doing 90% of our work for us.


Possible Solutions

Many good solutions are mentioned in previous posts. I'm a fan of the idea of making Judgment useful again, which would make Selfless Healer viable over EF. However, some part of Judgment would have to be made baseline effective without the talent, otherwise Selfless Healer may simply replace EF. Likewise, some part of EF may need to be made baseline to encourage a healthy move to Selfless Healer.

As far as the problems mentioned above, I have provided some of my own solutions I think may be viable:

    ---Holy Light on all targets grants 1 Holy Power . I can not think of a single reason this should not be implemented with the current state our HoPo regen is in. Even in PvP.
    ---Increasing Holy Radiance effective range would solve a lot of problems, but may make a single target heals less useful. But then again, other classes have AoE spells that arent limited to range (such as Uplift), who would be pretty upset if such spells were limited to the small range HR is.
    ---Increasing Holy Radiance healing would provide output comparable to other classes in stacking situations without providing a reason to overheal more.
    ---Adding a HoT to Holy Radiance again would move people away from EF now that they have an alternate hot to turn to, and the paladins who want to more than 1 HoT can still take EF over something like, for example, a buffed Selfless Healer.
    ---Infusion of Light proccing off of other spells such as Judgment.
    ---Decrease cooldown of Holy Shock. If the pre-nerfed t14 4 piece had been made baseline for Holy Paladins and the mastery nerf had gone through, we would be operating at the same level as priests, druids and monks right now.


Final Notes
---In terms of HPS standings in regards to other specs, I am basing off my own personal experience as well as logs from World of Logs and parses from Raidbot. You can check these out and see a graphical plummet in the HPS of Holy Paladins once 5.3 hit.
---Maybe Divine Purpose and Holy Avenger are more popular choices right now because they provide more options and fludity to the spec over Santified Avenger?
---Crusader Strike HoPo regen right now is kind of whack. I feel as though I shouldn't be compelled to get up and close to a boss when (a). so many bosses have abilites that target ranged only and keep them away from melee (b.) the sole desperate reason for doing so is to use a GCD to do melee damage just to generate some HoPo. We should be encouraged to be in melee by being given additional benefits and less risk or discouraged by being given more hopo regen at a range.
---Why would Blizzard even THINK about nerfing any part of Holy Paladin's healing right now. In PvP we are already very counterable, and in PvE I would rank us only above resto shamans. If you want people to start using other talents, trying buffing the secondary and tertiary talents instead of just nerfing the most used ones. ESPECIALLY if it's aacross all specs of a class
---Feel free to support or deny any claims made here. I really wanted to provide good, overall feedback on the feel of Holy Paladins from my experience.
Edited by Bastiaan on 6/22/2013 1:16 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
13125
I was gonna comment but I've already been told to go ret. Keep it up, though.


This.

I am seeing less and less reason to be a holy paladin in a 25 man raid.

I mean honestly, give me 3 reasons why a holy paladin is something a 25 man raid "should" have at least 1 of...

Brb rolling resto druid, MW, or disc.

You can alleviate a lot of this situation Blizzard, by giving paladins our first meaningful set bonus since the 4p T14 (after buff to 2s, before nerf back down to 1s). T15 is horrendous and I was confident you intentionally made many set bonuses absolutely atrocious as a minor "nerf" and to make the final T16 bonuses seem much more exciting and fun in comparison. The nerf worked out, but I feel cheated on being legitimately excited for the final tier set bonuses.
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Others have covered it but Selfless Healers, and its need to use a GCD, pretty much makes it a non option for Holy. Which is a shame, there should be some way to rework it and make it viable.

Eternal Flame was too strong, however a 30% initial nerf along with the removal of its hot component to mastery seems like an over correction. As mentioned we will need to see it live but phewww.

The new Sacred Shield effect, if we stack two beacons on a tank, I am assuming only one proc every two minutes between the two of them. If so the 2nd paladin in our 25 man would have to choose between either EF or a talent which isn't geared towards holy paladins.
Edited by Bode on 6/21/2013 3:46 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14805
As a Prot paladin, and looking at other classes. Sacred Shield is just, it's too powerful. I mean, come on, it scales with Vengeance, it scales with haste. It's up constantly.

Spending Holy Power on anything that's not SotR, basically, is seen as a waste of resources, so we feel punished to use Eternal Flame, let alone WoG. You'll have to cast 3 judgments for Selfless healer to not get you, you know, KILLED... and even then:

Looking at my numbers standing in Org, if I use FoL (granted I'm not seeing the scaling, so bleh), I'll get one 54k heal off every 12.6 seconds, or I'll get 3.29 SS procs off for 69k "healing". So I mean, that's already a lot more over the course there. While it's not a burst, I'm not compelled to hold onto my SSes that I can't, where I would with the other. So already it's getting used up. And it will help even me out for the healers.

Now, I still think SS is OP as can be for Prot. Something about it, sorry, I'm coming to a blank. I thought the new SS was replacing it. Even tweeted that I was glad that it was. Obviously you guys don't feel that (old) SS should be lost. *shrugs*

TBH, I think though, you should nerf SS, remove maybe the haste scaling portion of it. Return our healing from Battle Healer, and nerf it's RANGE, down to 10 yards. Seriously, I think Battle Healer's real strength comes in that it can heal practically anyone in the raid.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14805
Others have covered it but Selfless Healers, and its need to use a GCD, pretty much makes it a non option for Holy. Which is a shame, there should be some way to rework it and make it viable.

Eternal Flame was too strong, however a 30% initial nerf along with the removal of its hot component to mastery seems like an over correction. As mentioned we will need to see it live but phewww.

The new Sacred Shield effect, if we stack beacons on a tank I am assuming only one proc every two minutes between the two of them. If so the 2nd paladin in our 25 man would have to choose between either a gutted EF (sorry for calling a spade a spade) or a talent which isn't geared towards holy paladins.


Woulda been good back when you have to judge to keep the regen/speed buff up :P

Also, Two paladins having SS is NO DIFFERENT than taking two shamans to a raid, they can't both Earth Shield. But this way one of you at least gets something for taking a different talent, and not being balanced around something you physically can't make use of in certain situations.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14250

Also, Two paladins having SS is NO DIFFERENT than taking two shamans to a raid, they can't both Earth Shield. But this way one of you at least gets something for taking a different talent, and not being balanced around something you physically can't make use of in certain situations.


The current live SS does stack. So multiple paladins could ss the same target. No point speculating if the other version stacks because it looks like it isn't going live.
Edited by Cynix on 6/21/2013 3:58 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
16755
If the goal of this was solely to make EF less of a mandatory choice then why was the talent itself nerfed rather than the other talents made more attractive?

The vast majority of resto shamans take HTT yet we haven't seen its effectiveness nerfed, but rather Blizzard is trying to make the other talents attractive by buffing them.

People never use Selfless Healer not because they don't like to have to mix in judgments into their rotation (we've been doing until MoP!), but because there is zero reason to judge, and a increased heal every 20 seconds is not worth 9k mana and 3 globals. If you made judgment generate holy power like crusader strike already does, or made it a smart atonement/eminence-style heal, or made it regen mana, then Selfless Healer would be attractive on its own, without the need to nerf EF.

SS as you have it on live and ptr will never be attractive for holy, best best would be to do something different with this talent all together and make it an activated defensive raid cd. Something like:

When the Paladin or any member of her party or raid falls below 30% health, that target gains a Sacred Shield absorbing damage equal to 30% of their maximum health. Lasts 15 seconds, 3 minute cooldown.

...

OR, you could just avoid this whole issue and just replace EF on the tier with something else, make it a baseline part of holy's toolset like you're doing for SS and prot. Make it require 3 hp to use (or to proc the hot) if you're concerned about blanketing the raid. EF is never used by ret or prot, and the proposed 5.4 EF will be even less attractive for them! So just replace it!
Edited by Gwenneth on 6/21/2013 4:02 PM PDT
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Woulda been good back when you have to judge to keep the regen/speed buff up :P
Or when (bad) paladins kept JoL up to pad meters :P

Even with the nerf the hot aspect of EF will still make it a better choice than Selfless Healer or just plain WoG. New Sacred Shield will be fight dependant while learning new normal or HM encounters. LFR or farm content it will not be needed at all.

Blizzard is right in that this tier of talents needs to be less of a clear choice. However for Holy Paladins they have only nerfed the strongest and presented us with one choice that is very fight dependant and another which is not viable at all. Hopefully as development on 5.4 comes along this changes and they reach their goal without what seems like poor options for holy paladins.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14805

Also, Two paladins having SS is NO DIFFERENT than taking two shamans to a raid, they can't both Earth Shield. But this way one of you at least gets something for taking a different talent, and not being balanced around something you physically can't make use of in certain situations.


The current live SS does stack. So multiple paladins could ss the same target. No point speculating if the other version stacks because it looks like it isn't going live.


I was replying to someone assuming they (new SS) didn't stack. Maybe I should have made that more clear; and that if they were right and they didn't stack, they had as much room to complain as the years of Shamans dealing with Earth Shield not stacking.
Edited by Maleia on 6/21/2013 4:11 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15850
Before I begin, I would like to mention a few things. The following post largely pertains to Holy in a PvE situation, and not PvP. I realize changing a spec mechanic with one side in mind can have grave consequences for the other side, but this post is to shed light on the current condition of Holy in PvE. I would also like to note on the devs' recurring mantra of emphatically stating that "HPS isn't a very accurate measure of a spec's healing potential". There are arguments for and against this, but ultimately many "measurements" of a healing spec's "healing potential" correlate with HPS, like reactive healing and mana conservation. Player enjoyment and originality of a spec's playstyle is not included in these, but I will discuss how even this attribute is now lacking in the Holy Paladin specialization.

Our Current "Situation"
Currently, I can think of no situation where Holy paladin capabilities are on par or exceed other classes in terms of HPS and/or the reactive healing of other healer specs:

    ---Heavy raid AoE damage situations where the raid is stacked within a 10 yard radius of each other are the only place that paladins provide substantial HPS. However, this is still not on par with other healer's cooldowns and mechanics (Tranquility, mushrooms, blank rejuv, spirit shell, uplift, atonement) especially considering our aoe healing range and target limitations (10 yards on Holy Radiance, diminished healing beyond 6 targets on Holy Radiance, 6 target cap on Light of Dawn).
    ---In heavy raid AoE damage situations where the raid is not stacked and spread out, holy paladins are currently at their worst. Holy Radiance has a 10 yard radius restriction. Light of Dawn is 30, but only affects 6 targets (a little over 1/5 of player targets in 25 man) and requires Holy Power to use. We currently have no useful means of Holy Power generation (something that will be mentioned later) in this scenario, as we will be at ranged (no CS). Leaving single target heals, which also don't generate HoPo except expensive heals on the tank. I find myself overhealing the melee stack in situations like this with Holy Radiance just for the hopo generation, because no other spells are reactive enough to impact spread out aoe raid damage.
    ---Finally, random sporadic damage on raid members. Obviously the place for our single target heals. However, thanks to t14 set bonus nerf, holy paladins can't help contribute to these heals except maybe one-fourth of the time (that time being when holy shock is up, infusion of light has procced from a holy shock, or enough HoPo for WoG/EF). This wasn't so bad in 5.0-5.2 because shortened Holy Shock cooldown from t14 4 piece gave us much more fluidity in our reactive healing (one of the biggest problems that I will discuss later) mostly because of more Infusion of Light procs and a decent amount of HoPo regen from Holy Shock that did not require standing in melee for Crusader Strikes (especially with the amount of boss mechanics that specifically target range these days, making it extremely dangerous for ranged and healers to stand in melee a majority of the time).

So where do Holy Paladins belong if they are found comparatively lacking in the 3 most common intensive healing situations in raids? Is spreading 1 HoPo EFs (now much more slowly) the intent? Probably not.

[ul]---Low Holy Power Generation: This wasn't a problem when Holy Shock was on a lower cooldown. However, in non-stacked situations, our only means of holy power generation outside of holy shock are now expensive (and often overhealing) spells on the Beacon, Holy Radiance (should we be using an expensive AoE spell just to heal 1 or 2 targets for the sake of generating a holy power?) or using Crusader Strike (often not viable because many bosses have mechanics that target ranged only and keep them out of melee). I think most Holy Paladins would want to see more HoPo regen in to feel less Clunky. Which brings me to...


And this reliance on an AoE expensive heal (Holy Radiance) to generate Holy Power, is the clear reason why we have more mana issues than any other healing class.
Edited by Setzeer on 6/21/2013 4:17 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7710
Haha, you guys should try out SH it isn't working as intended, when you use Divine light it does not consume SH it also does not increase the healing.
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90 Human Paladin
9040
I understand a lot of balance and adjustments are put in place with regards to pve. However in the pvp dynamic the 5.3 reduction to mastery in addition to the 40% nerf to absorption affects effectively pushed an already struggling class into veritable extinction.

The thought of further reduction in healing will be even more devastating to the speck and entirely remove it from pvp viability.

I say this as for pvp the only choice for holy paladin healing is in fact eternal flame. Selfless healer has 0 use as it does not help the paladin when being focused which is a large portion of the time. It also does nothing for when the paladin is prevented from casting due to crowd control.

Sacred shield was and has been next to useless as it only aided with a single target and it's long CD coupled with another CD to activate renders it useless during switches. Now with the 40% reduction it's shield affect is non-existent.

I understand the community is focused mainly on pve, but some consideration should be in place for the pvp community instead of forcing us to simply give up our mains and switch to another class or unsubscribe.

The main question I have at hand is will the added resources from the failed mmo (titan aka titanic) focus some attention on holy paladin pvp or only pve?
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90 Draenei Paladin
12405

---Why would Blizzard even THINK about nerfing any part of Holy Paladin's healing right now. In PvP we are already very counterable, and in PvE I would rank us only above resto shamans. If you want people to start using other talents, trying buffing the secondary and tertiary talents instead of just nerfing the most used ones. ESPECIALLY if it's aacross all specs of a class


I absolutely loved this post. I read through the entire thing and found that it was directly on par with what I am seeing with my raid healing paladin.
Edited by Valkyris on 6/21/2013 5:21 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15850
---Possible Solutions

Holy Light on all targets grants 1 Holy Power . I can not think of a single reason this should not be implemented with the current state our HoPo regen is in. Even in PvP.
---Increasing Holy Radiance effective range would solve a lot of problems, but may make a single target heals less useful. But then again, other classes have AoE spells that arent limited to range (such as Uplift), who would be pretty upset if such spells were limited to the small range HR is.
---Increasing Holy Radiance healing would provide output comparable to other classes in stacking situations without providing a reason to overheal more.
---Adding a HoT to Holy Radiance again would move people away from EF now that they have an alternate hot to turn to, and the paladins who want to more than 1 HoT can still take EF over something like, for example, a buffed Selfless Healer.
---Infusion of Light proccing off of other spells such as Judgment.
---Decrease cooldown of Holy Shock. If the pre-nerfed t14 4 piece had been made baseline for Holy Paladins and the mastery nerf had gone through, we would be operating at the same level as priests, druids and monks right now.


Please Blizzard, consider some of these solutions/ideas/changes. I am not happy with our current options for building holy power.

The "Divine Purpose" Talent finally had a place with Holy Paladins with the Tier 14 set bonus to Holy Shock (4 second CD). With more holy power available, Divine Purpose was as useful AND effective as Holy Avenger.

Now with the 6 second CD to holy shock, Divine Purpose now only procs about a dozen or so times in an 8 minute raid fight (unless you're spamming Holy Radiance or Flash of Light/Divine Light on the beaconed target, which will essentially make the Paladin go "out of mana" in less than 2 minutes).
Edited by Setzeer on 6/21/2013 5:55 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15350
I will preface this saying that I am strictly a PvE hPal. Here's my suggestion to lvl45 talent tree to see more diversity in playstyles:

To make Selfless Healer viable keep its current changes of reducing the mana cost and casting time on FoL and DL while adding the healing buff for each Judgment, however ADD a holy power gain for each stack of Selfless Healer used. This would smooth out the discrepancy of Holy Power generation between being in melee or not as a holy paladin. This would be the talent for holy paladins who are forced to stand at range, based on boss fight mechanics that target ranged. It would allow them to maintain their holy power generation as well as be slightly more mobile with their faster cast times of DL and FoL. By adding the Holy Power generation to the instant FoL for Ret and Prot, their would be incentive to use their healing utility on either themselves or the raid, in order to gain up to 3 holy power in one global. In addition to this talent change, Judgment should be flagged as a "melee" attack for Seal of Insight purposes, proccing the heal and the mana return, again to balance the disadvantage for not being able to be in melee range. By

As for Eternal Flame, I would go with a near complete rework since it sees very little play in anything besides Holy. For the sake of varying play styles, Holy Paladins having an optional HoT would be nice, so I would argue that simply adding a HoT or DoT to healing or damaging spells that require HoPo would keep the overall feel of the talent the same while making it viable for Prot and Ret as well. Obviously the numbers would have to be tweaked to keep it in line with the other lvl45 talents, so some percentage of the damage/healing done by the HoPo using spell would balance it with regards to Selfless Healer's increased HoPo genration.

Now onto Sacred Shield, simply a 3 HP absorb shield sounds good but have it auto proc on yourself when you drop below 30% with like a 2 min internal CD to keep that old feel many people loved so much. To make it attractive for Ret,make it reflect damage such that it is scaled slightly higher to the damage of TV if all the damage is absorbed. Paladins have an extreme amount of raid utility so rewarding Ret paladins with good raid awareness of incoming damage seems to fit their role as a DPS.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12550
You should take these unnecessary changes, and push them somewhere else!

Going to check these out in the PTR now. Its still really early in a long ptr testing phase though...im sure changes will be made
Edited by Raven on 6/21/2013 6:59 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
8705
Let me first say, I think this was a great tier. Fights were challenging, and focuses less on gear, and more on mechanics. As a 10 man raider, we had a chance to finish much stronger than many other guilds, despite a lackluster previous tier. We improved drastically to 12th US, which wouldn't have been possible without dynamic, challenging fights with a high level of player responsibility. I'd like to think I'm at least one of the better holy paladins raiding 10m PVE, and can offer some insight into class changes going into 5.4

I think alot of valuable things have already been said, one of the biggest problems with holy paladins this tier, was the nerf of the t14 bonus, which effected playstyle and holy power generation. What is funny, is that this happened not due to t14 being overpowered, but t15 being underpowered. I'd challenge you to find any BiS holy paladin that is using t15 4 set. Instead we drop legs, chest, gloves, for pieces with better itemization (hopefully TF, I'll get into the whole 25 vs. 10m a little here; over the course of a farm, players get substantial ilvl bonuses, even if they choose to go 10m next tier, even paragon is farming content in 25m because of this).

A nerf to eternal flame, because of the synergy it has with mastery, is powerful. Also I wasn't aware that the nerf to mastery hadn't been a flat 2%, and instead effected coef. as well, is this true?

One of our biggest weaknesses is DPS. While I realize healers were never intended to be a DPS class, every little bit you can eek out during downtime helps. It is here that I think many are confused. Keeping up a perfect rotation, we do significantly less damage than a disc priest, fistweaver, etc, while doing 0 healing. I would much rather see a talent/glyph change that offers some atonement/ancestral guidance like healing, OR offer a decent buff to damage, that makes up for some of this difference. Currently there's VERY little reason to dps as an hpally. I'll rarely be able to compete with a disc priest in HPS, but once you factor in the dps a disc priest can bring (upwards of 50k on many fights, nevermind the number of fights with enhanced damage, which mean enhanced healing), it really gets sad. Maybe enhanced damage/holy power generation on judgement, with a raid healing component. That would bring judging back for holy paladins, which I feel was really lost this xpac. Could also look at seals too.

So my own opinion is this;
If you want to offer options for talents, that's fine. But please don't just nerf the other talent into submission.

Selfless healer- Currently as an hpally, I can see zero reason for a competitive raider to take this talent. WHY does this talent change even exist. It's almost as if you guys forgot that judgement doesn't give holy power for holy. There is 0 reason for holy paladins to burn a GCD on a non-heal that doesn't generate holy power. I'm going to be totally honest, if this was a non-talent, it would still be questionable at best. There's just no reason for an hpally to judge. You guys should really fix this talent.
Sacred Shield - This might be useful for certain mechanics, or if coef. improve enough with scaling that light of dawn is a more effective heal than eternal flame, though this will likely only happen in 25m, if at all. Light of dawn is an overheal nightmare in 10m, even glyphed. Frankly this might be more interesting if it worked for the target of beacon AND the paladin. Currently I really just see this as being useful to help with certain mechanics. Dropping the CD also might make it more attractive.
Eternal Flame- The synergy this talent has with mastery makes it a no brainer. For a 10m raider that can't go Light of Dawn, it really is the only choice. I would be really careful about nerfing this one. Right now, the fact that this puts a decent bubble, that is refreshed and built upon by the HoT, is one of the things keeping us in the game right now as healers. Another great option for DPS would be adding a permanent "harsh words" component to this talent, and turn it into a hostile spell with dot component. This would be an interesting thing for us to add to a rotation, provide decent dps, especially multidotting, and require a high level of skill to execute (ie how do you balance taking healing away from the raid by spending holy power on them, vs dps on a boss). It could even have a minor HPS kickback, ie some % of the damage done routes to beacon. This would make it less attractive to use eternal flame on the raid, and more attractive to use it on enemies.

Non-stacked healing- One of the biggest areas of struggle is non-stacked (greater than 10y range) healing. I don't want to see holy rad's range increased, because I think anyone with half a brain that played cata knows that the spell is right where it should be atm, and shouldn't be stronger. One idea I would love to see is a talent, glyph, CD, or even t16 set bonus that creates an effect on beacon like diffusion on HM meg (though obviously with a larger range). This would give the paladin a way of sacrificing single target heals and beacon heals, to heal the rest of the raid in a way they usually couldn't. Obviously it would need to be a percentage of the healing, though at a range larger than the 10y we have with holy rad, likely somewhere between 20 and 30 yards. Situations where the raid is taking large amounts of damage while spread out is where we are at our weakest. This ability could offer a dynamic choice, do I spam big single target heals on the tank to AoE heal the raid, or do I try to pump heals to my beacon via holy lights that target other raid members. Can I afford to sacrifice tank healing at this time, it could be risky... etc
The numbers are beyond me, and it would take some balancing, but clearly it is within the realm of possibility, and offers a decent class change without being earth shaking. The biggest thing is that it offers a healing gain in a situation where we are incredibly weak, without making us stronger in other areas.

Mastery- Right now, mastery is attractive. It's just going to be that way until xpac rolls around, and you can fix absorbs. Personally, I don't think absorbs can, or should be fixed with 5.4, but TBH I have another healing toon I plan to BiS during our farm, just in case we're nerfed into oblivion (sadly, that really really doesn't take much, the dynamics of holy power generation, mastery, and EF, are all so linked that it's difficult to tweak things safely, as it goes for any class). My other concern for our raid has been a concern over a massive disc nerf, this is an amazingly strong class, especially in 10 man.

Thunderforged and 10m vs 25m loot- I get that you want 25 man to be attractive, and that it needs a boost to keep morale up since many guilds are falling apart. Please don't do this in a way that hurts 10 man even more. It really sucks when we need to worry about 25 mans dropping down to 10 man next tier that will have full TF. It would be really great if 10 man could do something to catch up with TF, or if TF was nerfed. For instance, you could make TF ineligible for upgrades (still a bonus, but not a huge head start for next tier). Or you could give an "elite" version of each boss, increasing the likelihood of dropping TF gear. You could even let me drop an extra mogu rune or two, to give a 100% chance for TF.
With the new PPM system, it's really the trinkets that are the biggest deal. These trinkets scale greatly, and the higher the chance for a proc, the more likely it'll line up with a CD, etc. The fact that 25m can count on a raid full of 549 TF gear, and 10m can't, is huge. Combine this with the inability of 10m to use loot as efficiently as 25m where pieces rarely go to waste, and the difference is even greater.
I realize 10m and 25m are difference races, but I like that they are closer than they used to be. Thunderforged type gear is taking us away from that. Finally, make 10m and 25m server achieves seperate. Hell, you should probably even come out and make an official "blizzard says this stuff is different, so method, props to you, paragon, props to you too, you both got first, because these are two different races." This could be done with a world first 10m and 25m feat of strength. It really can't be said that one is easier than the other, both have considerable pro's and con's.

So to sum it up;
No PVE holy paladin will ever take Selfless Healer because they don't judge.
Sacred shield is still underpowered, because unless you're only dumping holy power with light of dawn, you're still locked into eternal flame.
If you don't want people to feel locked into something, BUFF the other stuff more. T14 is a great example, the t15 needed a buff. Don't just nerf things to make other things seem more attractive.
Be VERY careful with mastery. Unless you're ready to revamp our entire class, you risk killing it. If you want to control mastery a little, do it by making the 2 and 4 set attractive, while restricting the mastery on a couple of the pieces (like t15), while giving nice mastery off pieces as choices too.
Consider offering a "diffusion" like effect that siphons healing from our beacon target to raid members in a larger area of effect. This could be done via CD, talent, or glyph. I like the idea of a glyph, since it makes the effect "always on", which ultimately turns the ability into a loss when you aren't using it effectively.
Think about giving us something to increase our damage, and/or with a healing component. There's no reason why this couldn't still feel like a classic paladin, judging/striking/shock (vs denounce spam). I'd much rather see a more damage, damage + healing, or more healing options worked into talent tiers. You don't want cooker cutter choices, give us unique viable options for fights.
Thunderforged is lame, at least let 10m have some sort of equalizer, even if it is an increased degree of difficulty, or consuming extra coins for a roll. Even better, find a different way to make 25m attractive.

EDIT: As a bare minimum, I would consider EF at hot at least "extending" the mastery bubble if not building on it. I think it'll be interesting to see how much our numbers hurt as a result. I think most ppl will just LoD, which tbh is lame as hell. LoD has a place, but it feels a whole lot less dynamic than EF. Really should consider some of these other nice options for changes myself and others have said. Right now I see the EF tier as still cookie cutter, EF just got nerfed is all.
Edited by Xiloclipse on 6/22/2013 9:05 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
16415
Xiloclipse, two of the things you talked about are adressed in the preliminary patch notes. I think you probbaly saw them already, l but ill copy/paste them anyway because I agree with pretty much everything you mentioned.

My other concern for our raid has been a concern over a massive disc nerf, this is an amazingly strong class, especially in 10 man.


Divine Insight for Discipline Priests now has a 100% chance to activate its effect after using Penance, up from 40%
Glyph of Reflective Shield now causes Power Word: Shield to reflect 70% of the damage absorbed (up from 45%)

Imagine the synergy on this buff lol, this is going to add to the 50k dps disc brings already like you mentioned. Get 2 power word shields out every 9 seconds, reflecting 70% back as damage to the raid bosses.

06/21/2013 08:02 PMPosted by Xiloclipse
Currently there's VERY little reason to dps as an hpally. I'll rarely be able to compete with a disc priest in HPS, but once you factor in the dps a disc priest can bring (upwards of 50k on many fights, nevermind the number of fights with enhanced damage, which mean enhanced healing), it really gets sad.


Dream of Cenarius has been completely redesigned to reduce complexity and increase usability, but maintain the spirit of the effects. Benefits now varies by specialization.
Restoration: Causes Wrath to deal 20% more damage and heals a nearby friendly target for 100% of the damage done.

So now you can count 3 healers with viable dps to heal conversions: disc priest, fistweaver monk, and resto druids.

I think that would be a good way to make talent changes to that eternal flame tier, either change or create a new talent that converts one of our spells into a damage to heal conversion, like what this talent is doing for druids. Although to be honest, there needs to be some kind of a secondary gain for it to work as well as atonement and fistweaving. Atonement is efficient because it converts at a 90% damage to heal ratio, while fistweaving generates mana tea for later intensive all heal phases, which is why I'm assuming their conversion ratio is only 25-50% damage to heals.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10350
Why the hell would a "like to judge"? What does Judgement actually DO for a holy pally? Isn't it like telling a R.shaman they have to cast one of their dots to speed up a heal? Having to Judge in pvp means coming out of a pillar, or getting closer to the fight in rbgs. You know what happens to pallys who are in LoS of casters? You get attacked by a sloth. These changes are so bad. Seriously. Why do we even want to waste a GCD on judgement. Selfless healer is a ret talent.

And why is guardian STILL double dipping battle fatigue? Hand of sac doesn't take sac'd person's damage reduction effects into account either.
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