Strongest 5.4 healers?

91 Night Elf Druid
9335
It's just funny when people seriously say that paladins have a lack of raid utility. The amount of ways they can break the game are so plentiful that it's just baffling to see anyone claim that paladins are not desired.

Paladins have and always will be desired for an incredibly long list of reasons. We can see some other classes start to do more throughput when the raid has to constantly move, but when there's a difficult-to-deal-with mechanic that needs to be broken or cheated in some way, you know who to call.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Mage
6955
Paladins have bull!@#$ armour values and a ridiculous amount of things to keep them alive. Oh my god I could make a gigantic list right now.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
12580


Unless paladins get compensated for all the nerfs being thrown our way, we'll likely be dead last (gearing up my druid now).


That is absolute utter nonsense.

They've changed your class with some mastery/hot changes.

Haste will be quite a bit stronger and you will be incredible tank and spot healers. Which, hey you rolled a pally, what a pally should be; That's their niche.
So, don't boohoo because you shouldn't be fulfilling a Resto Druid or Shaman's niche.
Fact of the matter the worst case scenario is Pally = Middle of the pack. Aka, Balanced.


Wow. You honestly have no idea how holy paladins work, do you?

The mastery change is fine--it needs to be reduced because the shields are a bit too strong.
As for the changes to Eternal Flame... it is approximately a 17% nerf to our healing done. Go look at the mmo-champion forums if you want to see the math that Aladya has done to show that.

Even he has said that it's looking grim and that the higher tiered guilds may end up retiring their holy paladins if the changes on the PTR to Eternal Flame go live. That is how bad the nerf is.

We aren't complaining because things are getting nerfed--- we're complaining because they are literally making us undesirable healers. We don't have the raid utility brought by any other healer--- Yes, we do have personal cooldowns, but guess what? Those are personal cooldowns-- and if you think that we are supposed to be tank/spot healers, you haven't been paying attention.

Even before Catacylsm came out, Blizzard said they wanted every healer to be able to raid *and* tank heal effectively. Paladins haven't been pure tank/spot healers since WRATH, you moron.

And if you don't want to be called a moron, don't give an opinion without any factual information to back it up! That is the essence of stupidity.

If blizzard insists on the nerf to EF going live, we are going to be one of the weakest healers in the game, if not *the* weakest healer. That is something to complain about, because to be effective in our respective 10 and 25man guilds, we need to be able to keep up with the other healers. EF is the only thing that allows that on live right now, but I doubt you can imagine what that means for us with the PTR version since you think we're supposed to be niche healers.

Which, by the way, we AREN'T. Not anymore. Not for two entire expansions. Stop living in the past and start paying attention to the current/future content that requires extensive raid healing.

Any healer forced into a tank healing role is going to *suffer* because the encounters aren't built around 1 tank healer + 2 raid healers or 1-2 tank healers + 4-5 raid healers (10 and 25 respectively). They are built for strong raid healers who have tank healing capabilities. NOT for tank healers with spot healing capabilities.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
12980
06/26/2013 09:59 PMPosted by Kyáza
If blizzard insists on the nerf to EF going live, we are going to be one of the weakest healers in the game, if not *the* weakest healer.


Blizzard has already made it very clear that they plan to compensate Paladins for the throughput loss, you aren't going live in this state.

Why are you still !@#$%ing?
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
15200
Paladins have bull!@#$ armour values and a ridiculous amount of things to keep them alive. Oh my god I could make a gigantic list right now.


Yea bull!@#$ armor values that have absolutely no effect on the majority aoe raid damage. And monks also have multiple ways of staying alive as well. And you as a priest have no reason to be complaining about paladins.

It's just funny when people seriously say that paladins have a lack of raid utility. The amount of ways they can break the game are so plentiful that it's just baffling to see anyone claim that paladins are not desired.

Paladins have and always will be desired for an incredibly long list of reasons. We can see some other classes start to do more throughput when the raid has to constantly move, but when there's a difficult-to-deal-with mechanic that needs to be broken or cheated in some way, you know who to call.


Oh you mean because they messed up this tier and allowed a ton of tank debuffs to be boped off? Prot and ret paladins bring it so no you don't need a holy paladin for it. So do what a lot of guilds did and get a prot paladin. Other than that what exactly has been game breaking? And what difficult mechanic is there that you "need" a holy paladin for exactly?
Edited by Cynix on 6/27/2013 4:28 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
15480
-with mechanic that needs to be broken or cheated in some way, you know who to call.


A prot or ret paladin?

Granted they are brought by holy paladins as well but holy paladins have 0 exclusive raid cd's in their toolkit. Not sure that can be said for any other class in the game.
Reply Quote
91 Night Elf Druid
9335
For the two people above me:

Don't go "we don't need that for these fights" when referring to CURRENT kills. I'm referring to progression kills with NO gear, which are the ONLY ones that matter. Anyone arguing that current results and/or kills matter, will basically just destroy their own arguments. Also a H pally is the only type of pally that is considered a "ranged" when boss mechanics are concerned.

Council --> Frostbite (This was HUGE on progression).

Magaera and many others (arguably all fights) --> Only healer that can combine speed boost with rocket boots.

Animus --> Matter swap during/right before jolts.

Twin Consorts --> Bubble after healing tank with debuff.

Lei Shen --> Beacon heals during transition phases OP, oh and bubble, of course.

Twins, Animus, Primordius, Magaera, Tortos, Council, Horridon --> Beacon heals are godlike.

For you guys not to understand how utterly ridiculous you sound by saying paladins are weak this tier...... it just blows my mind really. I guess all the top guilds that brought plenty of disc priests/paladins were all just on drugs and not thinking straight.

Also.........
Oh you mean because they messed up this tier and allowed a ton of tank debuffs to be boped off?

Yeah just THIS tier huh? lol...
Edited by Gamex on 6/27/2013 9:13 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
15480
Never said that paladins were weak this tier, because they are not. And the thread is about 5.4 not 5.2 or 5.3. Not sure if you messed around with your paladin on the ptr but the ef nerf hurts, a lot. And as of the last build they did not put anything in to compensate. Granted it is early in the ptr but the way they rolled it out is kind of scarey.
Edited by Taelaus on 6/27/2013 11:43 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
12580
06/27/2013 12:04 AMPosted by Pebble
If blizzard insists on the nerf to EF going live, we are going to be one of the weakest healers in the game, if not *the* weakest healer.


Blizzard has already made it very clear that they plan to compensate Paladins for the throughput loss, you aren't going live in this state.

Why are you still !@#$%ing?


My post was in response to those people who don't understand how drastic the nerf to EF on the PTR currently is as well as to those who think hpallies offer viable raid utility, which we don't.

As for the blizzard post about compensation---yeah, I've read that---there is no telling where they are going to compensate us and even then, it may force us into taking one of the talents over the other two. Which is what they have said they are trying to avoid.

It's still early in the PTR and I'm waiting to see what they do. But for those people who don't understand holy paladin mechanics to start throwing comments like "Good, hpallies need to be nerfed" or "Hpally q.q. isn't justified" around--well, I'm not going to just sit here and take it.

For you guys not to understand how utterly ridiculous you sound by saying paladins are weak this tier...... it just blows my mind really. I guess all the top guilds that brought plenty of disc priests/paladins were all just on drugs and not thinking straight.


Paladins aren't the weakest healers this tier, but they aren't the strongest either. They are about middle of the road. That's why the EF nerf is so damaging.

Also, look at the top ranks for healers in World of Logs, both for 25 man and 10 man Heroic. You'll see a lot of hpallies at the top for Jin'Rokh 10 Heroic, some for 10 heroic Ji'kun, some for 10 heroic Durumu, and 1 for 10 heroic Lei Shen. If you look at the 25man heroic--- there are 2 holy paladins in top 10 for Jin'rokh, 1 for Iron Qon, and 1 for Twin Consorts.

Now if you look at disc and holy priests, they make it into the top 10 on fights much more frequently. Same for mistweaver monks. The breakdown looks a little different on 25, but disc/holy priests (esp holy) and mistweaver monks are dominating the rankings.

There isn't an even mixture between the five healing classes.

I'm not saying hpallies are weak this tier--we aren't--but we aren't stronger than disc priests or mistweaver monks.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
19640
For the two people above me:

Don't go "we don't need that for these fights" when referring to CURRENT kills. I'm referring to progression kills with NO gear, which are the ONLY ones that matter. Anyone arguing that current results and/or kills matter, will basically just destroy their own arguments. Also a H pally is the only type of pally that is considered a "ranged" when boss mechanics are concerned.

Council --> Frostbite (This was HUGE on progression).

Magaera and many others (arguably all fights) --> Only healer that can combine speed boost with rocket boots.

Animus --> Matter swap during/right before jolts.

Twin Consorts --> Bubble after healing tank with debuff.

Lei Shen --> Beacon heals during transition phases OP, oh and bubble, of course.

Twins, Animus, Primordius, Magaera, Tortos, Council, Horridon --> Beacon heals are godlike.

For you guys not to understand how utterly ridiculous you sound by saying paladins are weak this tier...... it just blows my mind really. I guess all the top guilds that brought plenty of disc priests/paladins were all just on drugs and not thinking straight.

Also.........
Oh you mean because they messed up this tier and allowed a ton of tank debuffs to be boped off?

Yeah just THIS tier huh? lol...


Do you know how easy it is to list things that a class can do for every fight? You could make a resto shaman look godly.

Also, all early kills with low gear levels were done before the flat mastery nerf (when we were OP).
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
15200
For the two people above me:

Don't go "we don't need that for these fights" when referring to CURRENT kills. I'm referring to progression kills with NO gear, which are the ONLY ones that matter. Anyone arguing that current results and/or kills matter, will basically just destroy their own arguments. Also a H pally is the only type of pally that is considered a "ranged" when boss mechanics are concerned.

Council --> Frostbite (This was HUGE on progression).

Magaera and many others (arguably all fights) --> Only healer that can combine speed boost with rocket boots.

Animus --> Matter swap during/right before jolts.

Twin Consorts --> Bubble after healing tank with debuff.

Lei Shen --> Beacon heals during transition phases OP, oh and bubble, of course.

Twins, Animus, Primordius, Magaera, Tortos, Council, Horridon --> Beacon heals are godlike.


Doesn't mean !@#$ when ret and prot paladins bring every single piece of utility you are referring to, except beacon. Beacon heal OP and godlike? Yea ok. That is why the majority of paladins aren't using the crappy T15 set bonus that makes it heal for me(aka buffs the amount it over heals). And bubble? You are a druid. Go get ice block from a mage. And on Consorts. Don't mess up and heal the debuffed tank. The disc priests splash heals will take case of it and they won't get stacks. And go complain about everyone else's abilities they used to immune Static Shock(including your own you get from symbiosis).

For you guys not to understand how utterly ridiculous you sound by saying paladins are weak this tier...... it just blows my mind really. I guess all the top guilds that brought plenty of disc priests/paladins were all just on drugs and not thinking straight.


And read the thread title. It says 5.4.
Edited by Cynix on 6/27/2013 2:14 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
18930
For the two people above me:

Don't go "we don't need that for these fights" when referring to CURRENT kills. I'm referring to progression kills with NO gear, which are the ONLY ones that matter. Anyone arguing that current results and/or kills matter, will basically just destroy their own arguments. Also a H pally is the only type of pally that is considered a "ranged" when boss mechanics are concerned.

Council --> Frostbite (This was HUGE on progression).

Magaera and many others (arguably all fights) --> Only healer that can combine speed boost with rocket boots.

Animus --> Matter swap during/right before jolts.

Twin Consorts --> Bubble after healing tank with debuff.

Lei Shen --> Beacon heals during transition phases OP, oh and bubble, of course.

Twins, Animus, Primordius, Magaera, Tortos, Council, Horridon --> Beacon heals are godlike.


Doesn't mean !@#$ when ret and prot paladins bring every single piece of utility you are referring to, except beacon. Beacon heal OP during Lei Shen transition? Yea ok. And bubble on Lei Shen? You are a druid. Go get ice block from a mage. Seriously go complain about everyone else's abilities they used to immune Static Shock.

For you guys not to understand how utterly ridiculous you sound by saying paladins are weak this tier...... it just blows my mind really. I guess all the top guilds that brought plenty of disc priests/paladins were all just on drugs and not thinking straight.


And read the thread title. It says 5.4.


Any one who seriously thinks Paladins lack raid utility in any way is completely delusional. The fact that other paladin specs have the same utility as holy is irrelevant. It isn't as if those abilities don't stack and it isn't as if you can't use multiple Devo Auras, Hand of Sacrifice, etc, etc. You are acting as if a Ret using Devo Aura puts forberance on the raid or something.
Reply Quote
100 Human Priest
11920
Monk 4 set nerfed; disc retains overlord status.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
15200

Any one who seriously thinks Paladins lack raid utility in any way is completely delusional. The fact that other paladin specs have the same utility as holy is irrelevant. It isn't as if those abilities
don't stack and it isn't as if you can't use multiple Devo Auras, Hand of Sacrifice, etc, etc. You are acting as if a Ret using Devo Aura puts forberance on the raid or something.


Anyone who thinks it doesn't matter is delusional. If it is a heal intensive fight and holy paladins just lack the throughput to keep up, you are not going to bring them just because they have devo aura. Saying "holy paladins are mandatory because of the utility they bring" is a false statement.
Edited by Cynix on 6/27/2013 2:18 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
18930

Any one who seriously thinks Paladins lack raid utility in any way is completely delusional. The fact that other paladin specs have the same utility as holy is irrelevant. It isn't as if those abilities
don't stack and it isn't as if you can't use multiple Devo Auras, Hand of Sacrifice, etc, etc. You are acting as if a Ret using Devo Aura puts forberance on the raid or something.


Anyone who thinks it doesn't matter is delusional. If it is a heal intensive fight and holy paladins just lack the throughput to keep up, you are not going to bring them just because they have devo aura. Saying "holy paladins are mandatory because of the utility they bring" is a false statement.


Holy Paladins have had mediocre output before and have not had a raid viability problem since Sunwell. They will still be brought for superior tank healing, for the most flexible raid cooldown in the game (as long as the fight isn't physical raid damage), and for their strong raid utility.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
19640
Holy Paladins have had mediocre output before and have not had a raid viability problem since Sunwell. They will still be brought for superior tank healing, for the most flexible raid cooldown in the game (as long as the fight isn't physical raid damage), and for their strong raid utility.


Good thing there aren't any raidwide physical damage abilities that bosses have, right?

I mean, excluding Horridon, Ji-kun, Iron Qon, Sha of Fear, Grand Empress, Wind Lord, and Vizier.

Also, what tier have we been mediocre in?
Edited by Isiildur on 6/27/2013 2:41 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
18930
06/27/2013 02:41 PMPosted by Isiildur
Holy Paladins have had mediocre output before and have not had a raid viability problem since Sunwell. They will still be brought for superior tank healing, for the most flexible raid cooldown in the game (as long as the fight isn't physical raid damage), and for their strong raid utility.


Good thing there aren't any raidwide physical damage abilities that bosses have, right?

I mean, excluding Horridon, Ji-kun, Iron Qon, Sha of Fear, Grand Empress, Wind Lord, and Vizier.

Also, what tier have we been mediocre in?


Sure, AM has the magical damage limitation - but this is balanced by the fact that every other damage mitigation CD has a small area of effect (Barrier, Smoke Bomb, SLT), making it unusable or ineffective on at least as many fights (in reality a lot more) than there are fights without raidwide magic damage.

Paladins were pretty mediocre in T7 and especially T8 before the 100% beacon change at the start of ToC. They weren't particularly great in T11 either after all of the initial nerfs if I remember correctly. They were near the top across the board from T12 to 5.3 though.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
19640
06/27/2013 02:51 PMPosted by Tiberria


Good thing there aren't any raidwide physical damage abilities that bosses have, right?

I mean, excluding Horridon, Ji-kun, Iron Qon, Sha of Fear, Grand Empress, Wind Lord, and Vizier.

Also, what tier have we been mediocre in?


Sure, AM has the magical damage limitation - but this is balanced by the fact that every other damage mitigation CD has a small area of effect (Barrier, Smoke Bomb, SLT), making it unusable or ineffective on at least as many fights (in reality a lot more) than there are fights without raidwide magic damage.

Paladins were pretty mediocre in T7 and especially T8 before the 100% beacon change at the start of ToC. They weren't particularly great in T11 either after all of the initial nerfs if I remember correctly. They were near the top across the board from T12 to 5.3 though.


Like Demo Banner? Fun fact: Any warrior spec has more raid cooldowns than a paladin.

I'm also doubtful that there isn't a time when those cooldowns can be used. If nothing else, they can be used as tank/personal cds.

Paladins were the original int stackers, which started late T7, during which time we were able to spam holy light (which at that time had the relative potency of Divine Light) without regard.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
18930
[quote="93761347519"][quote]

Paladins were the original int stackers, which started late T7, during which time we were able to spam holy light (which at that time had the relative potency of Divine Light) without regard.


Right, but T7 was also (IIRC) when both CoH and Wild Growth had no cooldown, making them absolutely ridiculous. Also, everyone was able to spam their highest throughput abilities in Wrath, whether it was Rejuv, Holy Light, PW:S or Chain Heal.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
15200
Paladins were pretty mediocre in T7 and especially T8 before the 100% beacon change at the start of ToC. They weren't particularly great in T11 either after all of the initial nerfs if I remember correctly. They were near the top across the board from T12 to 5.3 though.


T11, you mean the tier where Paragon only brought holy paladins and holy priests to their Sinestra kill way after the paladin nerfs? And the only real difference from their other kills was they didn't bring a shaman for mana tide.
Edited by Cynix on 6/27/2013 3:17 PM PDT
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]