Okay, ill bring it up- prot and "Leets"

90 Dwarf Paladin
9565
Sooo, I've noticed some "leets" in EURO using intellect shield that drops for Tortos.... Although Theck does not use this shield, just seems very interesting..

With haste build this gives more haste, intel for healing and reforge outta spirit!
I have not done any testing myself, just liking the idea.... unless it puts my R-team in a bad spot...

http://www.wowhead.com/item=94778

Any thoughts ?
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14455
Shield is bad. Int does absolutely nothing for Protection - or Retribution, for that matter. Both specs' spell power is based on attack power, and "other sources of spellpower" are specifically excluded. Spirit also does nothing. Avoidance, while less desirable, should still be better on a shield than spirit/anything-more-relevant.

Now, if it was a haste/mastery Int shield, there may be some room for discussion.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
9565
Wouldnt the intel increase healing ? reforge the spirit into mastery , the shield has haste on it which is very appealing .....

dodge/parry does nothing for my haste build .... why would some top prots use it ?

THX for the discussion ...
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100 Human Paladin
10310
theses 'LEET' pallys are using the Tortos shield because they haven't gotten a real tanking shield drop.

If they argue that they are using it for the haste, they need to /fall on sword immediately
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14455
06/24/2013 08:06 AMPosted by Alexmania
Wouldnt the intel increase healing ?


No. Intellect increases spellpower, but there's is a Protection passive that reads something like "Spellpower is set to 50% of attack power, and cannot benefit from other sources of spellpower."

06/24/2013 08:06 AMPosted by Alexmania
dodge/parry does nothing for my haste build .... why would some top prots use it ?


Passive defense stats are still good, they're just not as good as active defense stats; but with that healing shield, you are gaining one solid stat and way too many completely useless stats, versus gaining a couple of weak stats.
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90 Tauren Paladin
16365
The shield might be worth using, if it is a HUGE upgrade.

You are gaining a little haste, at the expense of dodge/parry, strength, and some mastery

Literally, you would be gaining haste, at the expense of everything else.

Shield is bad. Now, if it was a haste/mastery Int shield, there may be some room for discussion.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
9565
Posted by Alexmania
dodge/parry does nothing for my haste build .... why would some top prots use it ?

^ MEANT why would a top prot use the shield?

Alrighty, i see.... Thought this guy was on to something, if intel did infact increase healing was thinking this shield would be hella good....

I learned some things THX !

Im only seeing one guy using it, guys has nice gear and maybe experimenting, idk ...
Heres the guy i saw:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/Neptulon/ayunae/advanced
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14455
Heres the guy i saw:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/Neptulon/ayunae/advanced


Looking at what the guy enchanted the shield with, I think he's foolishly going overboard on the "anti-tank stat" bandwagon. 50 mastery really can't be worth more defensively than 170 parry. And skipping all those socket bonuses is a waste of defensive potential (strength:parry is like a 1:.95 ratio or something), in addition to the increased healing and damage the extra strength would provide.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
9565
Yeah im def seeing your point !

im ashamed to say i changed my shield enchant ! ha, dont judge...im changing it back ;p
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15090
And skipping all those socket bonuses is a waste of defensive potential (strength:parry is like a 1:.95 ratio or something), in addition to the increased healing and damage the extra strength would provide.


waste of defensive potential? come on...have you been able to play prot with that much amout of haste? Haste build works around faster holy power generation, faster heals from SoI, faster sacred shield. Not dodge or parry from strength, and in addition, the extra strength to give him more heals will already be covered by Vengeance.

Trust me, getting that extra 15% haste from gems does a huge difference though not everyone can play with that.

Not gonna comment on the shield or enchants as i haven't been able to test it out yet (yes im still using shield from MSV thanks to bad luck-_-), but i'd be more tempted to call him good than bad considering he went that far in ToT.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20200
06/24/2013 01:54 PMPosted by Yc
waste of defensive potential?


It's a lot of avoidance, and that avoidance means more AS procs.

For the shield, they're getting 571 haste and 291 expertise. One of the two proper tanking shields, the same ilvl, is 603 mastery and 689 parry (275 haste, 414 parry). Plus the strength, which at 543 ilvl is pretty much 900 parry. On the shield alone they're taking more damage, and getting less AS procs, just for a whole 296 haste. Plus they're wearing multiple crit pieces, which is another 1400 rating down the drain, just for haste.

And you can get some pretty bad people in heroic bosses, if you want to look at what actual good, top-end tanks are doing; http://www.wowprogress.com/gearscore/us/class.paladin go nuts.
Edited by Cayse on 6/24/2013 2:11 PM PDT
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14455
06/24/2013 01:54 PMPosted by Yc
Trust me, getting that extra 15% haste from gems does a huge difference


I'm sure it is quite fantastic to run Prot at 45% haste; hell, I'm still looking to breach 35% as Ret. However, it is still wasted potential as the red sockets could be slotted with haste/expertise gems to help reach caps and free up reforges, and blue sockets could be gemmed haste/stam for some extra health.

But a lot of that may be my personal preference as a long-time Ret for a more balanced approach, as opposed to a "ZOMG HASTE ALL THE SOCKETZ!!11!!1!" approach. Though, in Prot's case, it really is a matter of sockets being worth matching as crit bonuses will be worthless.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20200
Fiddling with Yc's gemming, I actually figured out what Ayunae is doing.

They have 45% gear haste. That means they have 50% spell haste with SoI. They geared to that point specifically for a sacred shield breakpoint.

But they are giving up a hell of a lot to do it. They could also do it just fine without that ridiculous shield enchant.

Between 25% gear haste and 45%, you really aren't gaining much. You're getting hit harder, more often, and have less health, so that you gain SoI melee procs and a very slight HP generation gain. When you lose avoidance, you do lose some HP gain from AS procs, so gaining haste isn't an absolute gain in HP generation.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15090
True, we end up taking a lot more damage, that's one the reason that type of spec is not for everyone, maybe a bit higher than average prot tanks (though i dont want to call myself any good or higher cuz i still have a lot to learn), but in my personal case, i'm sacrificing some survivability for a substential dps gain.

Thing is, more damage taken is different from spike one and that's the key. Been playing aroud with that spec since MoP came out, usually my damage taken is high, but constant. Supplied with my self heals and close to 100% sacred shield uptime, my healers know that they have enough time to heal me, no need to rush with Flash of Light, Healing Surge, or any fast/expensive heal to drain their mana, because in the worst case, my 5 stack WoG is already up way faster than they can react.

As of HP generation, haven't tried yet to compare with others, but my shield of the righteous buff is up around 40-45% over the course of a raid fight, which means that close to half a fight im taking 45% less physical damage, the rest is covered by sacred shield and SoI, My SoR might not be strong as for one using a mastery build but is up more often.

It's a lot of avoidance, and that avoidance means more AS procs.


When you lose avoidance, you do lose some HP gain from AS procs, so gaining haste isn't an absolute gain in HP generation.


Agreed, though it still procs from CS/HoR no? rolling with a good 20% parry from my strength, haste will still make proc more often since my CS cd is lower.

Once again, im not saying that if you're not going for haste you're a bod paladin, actually i'm kind of screwing up myself because i should be gemming for stam at least, but in my case i wanted to see the limits of this build, and also that for a good portion of T14/T15 raids, my raid group was lacking a lot of dps, so i chose to go for some extra dps in order to get these bosses down, but so far i works well for me, keeping up small cds and using GoAK at the right time helps a lot, as long as having healers you can trust:P
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
This guy has not killed a heroic boss that can drop a 535 shield, so it's entirely possible that he never got a thunderforged normal mode shield (528) and had the pleasure of comparing his heroic Tortos shield versus a normal mode 522 shield. I can completely understand using the heroic one with Haste and extra armor/Stam!

Let's compare (I will not use item upgrades for either, just for the sake of comparison):

http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=96436.0.0.0.76699.0.0.0.118;95472.0.0.0.76699.0.0.0.131

Tortos' Discarded Shell - 747 Armor, 169 Stamina, 303 Haste, and 270 Expertise

Ultimate Protection of the Emperor - 788 Strength, 335 Parry, 492 Mastery

That's a pretty appreciable chunk of armor. We don't just blindly go with the highest item level shield anymore, but we still definitely favor the shield with the highest armor value (read: item level) since that's its primary function. Most people tend to forget that.

As for the rest of it, I mean you are definitely looking at a lot of lost parry, and if we were directly comparing the Avoidance/Mastery versus the Haste/Expertise in a vacuum, the tank shield would win by a pretty decent amount. We're not. That's a lot amount of armor (and a fair bit of Stamina.

BUT:

It is a fair point that +170 Parry is still worth more than +50 Mastery (Parry isn't THAT bad, not by a long shot), and that the dude's reforging appears to leave him .27% under his crucial Expertise cap. I mean I guess most of the gearing decisions make sense in a 10m progression context, where you don't necessarily need to soak huge spike damage and care a ton about your damage output.

Still... leet? Not progression bashing, but I wouldn't really call 6/13H leet at this point in the tier. Maybe that's a tainted viewpoint because I'm an 10/13H Prot Paladin and I'm really not that great honestly. I'd think all the true "leet" players would have been 13/13H months ago. To each their own though.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
16380
Haste build works around faster holy power generation, faster heals from SoI, faster sacred shield. Not dodge or parry from strength
Regardless of build dodge, parry and str still have value. Not all choices are a 1:1 tradeoff of stats, sometimes it's better to take the inferior stat because there's so much more of it than the preferred stat (ie the shield enchant choice mentioned earlier, mastery is definitely better than parry, but 170 parry is still better than 50 mastery). Likewise giving up 800~900 str as well as a few hundred dodge just to gain an extra 200~300 haste isn't the no-brainer that you imply.

Granted, if there's a decent ilevel difference then a healing shield could make sense, since as already pointed out the bulk of a shield's stat budget goes into the armor value which means that the int/spirit takes less away from the overall upgrade over a lower ilevel shield (also arguably makes armor the most important stat on a shield, at least for tanks). But when looking at equal/close ilevels the tank shield will still generally be better.
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