Genesis is not an HPS gain?

90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
I've been seeing this point a lot lately and it just doesn't make sense to me. Follow my logic here and please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.

Non-genesis scenario - Players A, B, and C have rejuv running on them. In a 17 second window (Time offset to accomodate the GCD and application of the second and 3rd rejuv) they would receive 180,000 healing (using my healing partners average rejuv tick of 15k). Healing done during the 17 second window = 180,000

Genesis Scenario - Players A, B, and C have rejuv cast on them followed by genesis. They receive the same 180,000 healing in about 5 seconds. The druid reapplies rejuv to player A, B, and C. Which ticks the full duration on player A, gets 3 ticks out on player B, and two ticks on player C for a total of 135,000 healing. Healing done during the 17 second window = 315,000

What am I missing here that makes this not be an hps gain?

Note: I did not include additional hot ticks from haste for simplicity. But additional ticks would only make the number difference greater.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12980
I think the claim isn't so much that it isn't an HPS increase (as it obviously is), but more so that it isn't a total throughput buff.

Now, I don't particularly understand that argument either, as the goal is to reduce overhealing, so proper use of Genesis will in fact be a throughput increase... But...ya.
Edited by Pebble on 6/27/2013 10:12 AM PDT
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91 Pandaren Shaman
10025
I think everyone agrees it's an HPS gain. As Pebble says, that's obvious.

The argument that it is not an overall throughput buff relies on the idea that a druid can only put out a certain number of Rejuvs, which are of course required for Genesis to work. That argument is not correct, because Genesis will make rejuvs expire quicker, allowing the druid to recast a new rejuvenation on a target that would (in the absence of Genesis) have still had the old one. No matter how long the fight, because rejuvenation has no cooldown, Genesis will make it possible to have many, many more ticks of rejuvenation on a given player. It is unquestionably a massive throughput increase. More ticks in a given amount of time are absolutely more throughput, and that just can't be denied. Your example above is exactly correct.

If Genesis made the druid choose either a FAST ticking rejuvenation OR a slow one, but both could only be cast with the same frequency due to a spell cooldown on rejuvenation, it would not be a throughput increase.
Edited by Taeus on 6/27/2013 10:31 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
From what I understand it, in the ideal scenario where Rejuv would be able to tick for it's maximum and have it not be overheal, it would be more HPS than using a Genesis. Also, while you are correct in saying that Rejuv > Genesis > Rejuv would probably add up to more HPS, you would also have to account for a few things. A Druid might not actually need all that healing you just mentioned (and that would likely be a big mana hit), so the second Rejuv (and even the Genesis) might not be needed. Kind of like you wouldn't want to cast a Riptide + a GHW if a Riptide + a HW would suffice to heal to full, even if GHW is obviously more HPS.

From what I can tell, Genesis is made specifically to help deal with burst. The question is if Genesis is going to make up for the sick burst current Mushrooms can provide. I'm thinking in ideal scenarios now would be better, but like with Shaman's ideal scenarios, those are few and far in between or an extreme hassle (or both) so the change will end up being better overall.

Rejuv + Genesis is obviously less situational than mushrooms on live which require stacking + ramp of time, and on the PTR the shroom does less healing but can be moved without needing to recharge it, a HUGE QoL buff. I can't really see any cause for complaints, they are good changes that Druids will be able to take advantage of in far more scenarios than now.
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90 Troll Druid
11860
Genesis grants Rdruids two things -

1: It provides Rdruids with limited 'burst' - limited by the fact that we have to have a hot already on a target.

2: It also limits our OH from absorbs, snipes and Murlocs. Nasty little Murlocs being the main culprit here.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Genesis grants Rdruids two things -

1: It provides Rdruids with limited 'burst' - limited by the fact that we have to have a hot already on a target.

2: It also limits our OH from absorbs, snipes and Murlocs. Nasty little Murlocs being the main culprit here.


Sounds alot like Uplift, actually. Except you can directly control where your HoTs go and, as a trade-off, have to manually cast each one.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
That argument is not correct, because Genesis will make rejuvs expire quicker, allowing the druid to recast a new rejuvenation on a target that would (in the absence of Genesis) have still had the old one. No matter how long the fight, because rejuvenation has no cooldown, Genesis will make it possible to have many, many more ticks of rejuvenation on a given player.


That's true when you're considering just throughput on a single player. As far as I'm aware, most Druids prefer HoT blanketing, and from that perspective it's a throughput loss, which is where the concern comes. Remember, logs don't restrict your targets.

Also, it really depends on the Druid toolkit. We're both probably painfully unaware of the opportunity costs of the entire toolkit and where the fillers actually should be in a vacuum.
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90 Tauren Druid
8435
Genesis will make it possible to have many, many more ticks of rejuvenation on a given player. It is unquestionably a massive throughput increase. More ticks in a given amount of time are absolutely more throughput, and that just can't be denied. Your example above is exactly correct.


How? Genesis does not increase #of ticks.
Genesis is as much a throughput increase as Glyph of Uplift would be for a monk - with the exact same negatives. In theory a big increase as it mainly prevents heal snipes; Negative is you're gonna be OOM real fast if you do these spells back to back.

But of course, Resto Druids don't have Mana Tea to be able to afford said style to be anything more than highly situational. And I apologize to any monks, But I bet very few run that glyph anyways as it's - just like genesis - Incredibly taxing on mana, when a simple alternative will do just fine.

That's the problem with theory sometimes, it's just not practical.
Edited by Tonydanza on 6/27/2013 11:51 AM PDT
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1 Gnome Warlock
0
Genesis isn't meant for when everyone in the raid is taking sustained, steady damage.

At the very least, Genesis would have been great for druids for Morchok in Dragon Soul.

I picture using Genesis when ~3 raid members take damage that I'd like healed up fairly quickly, but for less mana than spamming Regrowth.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18840
Consider genesis a throughput-oriented Spirit Shell.

You have to place it preemptively, but if used correctly it can trivialize burst raid damage.
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90 Troll Druid
11860
Well lets remember that Genesis doesn't take into account (of course it cannot) any crit hits from our rejuv ticks if we simply let them tick through. This might seem trivial but they do add up.
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90 Worgen Hunter
15605
Well lets remember that Genesis doesn't take into account (of course it cannot) any crit hits from our rejuv ticks if we simply let them tick through. This might seem trivial but they do add up.


How does it not take them into account? Doesn't it just make the ticks happen really fast, which should mean they still have their 20% (or whatever your crit is) chance to crit?
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80 Human Warlock
9570
06/27/2013 04:39 PMPosted by Anilyx
Well lets remember that Genesis doesn't take into account (of course it cannot) any crit hits from our rejuv ticks if we simply let them tick through. This might seem trivial but they do add up.


How does it not take them into account? Doesn't it just make the ticks happen really fast, which should mean they still have their 20% (or whatever your crit is) chance to crit?


No it happens instantly i.e. burst.
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100 Worgen Druid
12220
I've been seeing this point a lot lately and it just doesn't make sense to me. Follow my logic here and please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.

Non-genesis scenario - Players A, B, and C have rejuv running on them. In a 17 second window (Time offset to accomodate the GCD and application of the second and 3rd rejuv) they would receive 180,000 healing (using my healing partners average rejuv tick of 15k). Healing done during the 17 second window = 180,000

Genesis Scenario - Players A, B, and C have rejuv cast on them followed by genesis. They receive the same 180,000 healing in about 5 seconds. The druid reapplies rejuv to player A, B, and C. Which ticks the full duration on player A, gets 3 ticks out on player B, and two ticks on player C for a total of 135,000 healing. Healing done during the 17 second window = 315,000

What am I missing here that makes this not be an hps gain?

Note: I did not include additional hot ticks from haste for simplicity. But additional ticks would only make the number difference greater.


In the non-genesis scenerio you cast 3 rejuvs. In the Genesis scenerio you cast 6 rejuvs. I think that would be pretty obvious. The restriction you have is an artificial one that is saying only 3 specific players can be healed with one spell, making it so any more rejuvs would only clip the previous. Expand that to 6 players on the non-genesis scenario versus the genesis one with 3 players, and you have a better comparison that uses the same resources, with the exception of mana spent on genesis.

Anyway, it is easy to craft a scenario where Genesis increases HPS by setting a specific time interval and player cap. The longer you make the period and the more players you add, the HPS will actually drop in the absence of very specific burst healing. Bust healing is where it will really matter, where your rejuvs would otherwise be sniped.

Anyway, in sustained raid-wide damage, it is actually an HPS loss due to wasted GCDs and mana, I think that is the larger point.
Edited by Fangthorn on 6/27/2013 9:06 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
Anyway, in sustained raid-wide damage, it is actually an HPS loss due to wasted GCDs and mana, I think that is the larger point.


Well, that's not what Genesis is designed for, so I'm not sure what the problem is.
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90 Tauren Druid
8435
06/27/2013 06:11 PMPosted by Ivyrose


How does it not take them into account? Doesn't it just make the ticks happen really fast, which should mean they still have their 20% (or whatever your crit is) chance to crit?


No it happens instantly i.e. burst.


That is quite untrue. It happens in just under 2seconds, 4 individual ticks in quick succession. All of which can indeed crit. (4ticks is based on an absolute fresh rejuv being Genesis'd.)
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100 Tauren Druid
19365
Does anyone know if Genesis takes into account Haste buffed Rejuves and their extra ticks? I am thinking mainly of when I have a SotF buffed Rejuve on a tank. How about the stacking 6% increase from the T15 4p bonus?
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90 Tauren Druid
8435
sotf rejuv gives me 5ticks (if used immediately after rejuvs application) when I use genesis on ptr. Thus, it indeed factors in as non sotf returns only 4 ticks upon genesis.

But...how good is this for tank healing? Great. But how ideal...not very when it essentially removes all of your other rejuvs, quite likely into overheal, on the rest of the raid. Costly and impractical. Uber in pvp.
Edited by Tonydanza on 6/27/2013 11:52 PM PDT
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100 Worgen Druid
12220
06/27/2013 10:03 PMPosted by Quard
Anyway, in sustained raid-wide damage, it is actually an HPS loss due to wasted GCDs and mana, I think that is the larger point.


Well, that's not what Genesis is designed for, so I'm not sure what the problem is.


He was asking why people have said it is not a HPS gain, so I am not presenting a problem, only answering a question.

I have no problem with Genesis and I am excited to use it...
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100 Tauren Druid
19365
sotf rejuv gives me 5ticks (if used immediately after rejuvs application) when I use genesis on ptr. Thus, it indeed factors in as non sotf returns only 4 ticks upon genesis.

But...how good is this for tank healing? Great. But how ideal...not very when it essentially removes all of your other rejuvs, quite likely into overheal, on the rest of the raid. Costly and impractical. Uber in pvp.

Eh, I wasn't thinking so much about pure tank healing per se, but whether or not it would be effective to plan to have a SotF Rejuve on the tank if I am setting up for a Genesis anyway. Of course, this would take into account who is getting hit by what, timing, and all that, so it would just be another variable to juggle when you are trying to maximize effectiveness.

I don't think it will really have that much impact on PvP, as Incarnation is just so much better that SotF in every way for a resto druid in PvP.
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