Genesis is not an HPS gain?

90 Night Elf Druid
15480
06/27/2013 11:47 PMPosted by Tonydanza
Great. But how ideal...not very when it essentially removes all of your other rejuvs, quite likely into overheal, on the rest of the raid. Costly and impractical.


Guess it could quick charge placed mushroom in that situation. (just trying to look for a positive)
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
Typical 25H overheal this tier (for non absorb based healers) is in the 70% range. With that level of overheal, theoretical throughput is much less relevant than the ability to actually deliver it as effective healing. Genesis is going to be extremely powerful, because it will let you push Rejuv output forward during times where it will actually be effective, giving you a tool to control overhealing on a spell that is incredibly prone to it. I would kill for a similar spell to accelerate Healing Rain.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930


But...how good is this for tank healing? Great. But how ideal...not very when it essentially removes all of your other rejuvs, quite likely into overheal, on the rest of the raid. Costly and impractical. Uber in pvp.


Rejuv is what ~9000 mana?, So, Rejuv - Genesis would be 18,000 mana. Rejuv with the 5th tick breakpoint should heal for a total of around 120,000 (before Mastery gain) with 40,000 SP, which is accelerated to being over a 3 second window.

Compare that to:

Divine Light - 21,600 mana - heals for 77,000 non Crit at 40,000 SP
Healing Surge - 20,570 mana - heals for around 76,000 non Crit at 40,000 SP
Flash Heal - 17,700 mana - heals for around 67,000 non Crit at 40,000 SP

Accelerated Rejuv costs less mana than the direct single target primary tank heals of other classes, and will easily heal for twice as much over a 3 second window when Harmony is taken into account. Yes, you can only use it every 3 seconds as opposed to spamming it, but no other healer is going to be able to sustain averaging one of these spells more than once every 3 seconds any way.

There is no question that Druids are now the strongest tank healer in the game.
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100 Worgen Druid
12800
Well you ignored his point.... there are very few, if any points you have rejuv only on the tank, so using Genesis in that fashion means you essentially waste all other rejuvs on the raid if not matched to spike damage on EACH player.

Also, a Druid could just cast two regrowths over that 3 second window for more healing than a Genesis rejuvenation, and only .5 more GCDs. Adding in living seed makes this the clear winner. It would be more mana, but also not force you to waste any others on the raid. Just sticking to the standard LB, Rejuv rolling, and then using Regrowth Spam will be just (or more) effective use of your GCDs, while also not stripping the tank of the rejuv (as those ticks will be right alongside the regrowths), and also refreshing LB.

Anyway, I only see the situation you describe being more effective in Dungeons, PVP (in particular due to removing cast time), or other places where a Druid would not have more than a couple rejuvs out. Maybe a few tank healing fights with little to no raid damage will arise (but even then i see myself using the standard rotation), but beyond that, they will just get the same treatment as the raid when genesis is used (raid-wide AOE burst response).

Anyway, I think you are falling into the trap a lot of people are. This "ermahgerd" reaction to Genesis seems to never really look at the spell from seasoned eyes, and makes it into more than it is.

It will be great for burst AOE mechanics, and also for speed charging shrooms when needed (which again would be for burst AOE mechanics). But there is no need to make it into something it is not, such as a primary tank healing tool.

There is no question that Druids are now the strongest tank healer in the game.


Just a little hyperbole, don't you think? While I am tempted to agree :) , only because I think we already are very strong, it has nothing to do with Genesis.

IMO our changes to LB stacking, and our set bonuses, will have far more of an impact to tank healing than Genesis ever would.
Edited by Fangthorn on 6/28/2013 9:41 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
9405

Eh, I wasn't thinking so much about pure tank healing per se, but whether or not it would be effective to plan to have a SotF Rejuve on the tank if I am setting up for a Genesis anyway. Of course, this would take into account who is getting hit by what, timing, and all that, so it would just be another variable to juggle when you are trying to maximize effectiveness.


IMO, Genesis is a nice small group burst heal option for druids to use during Ocrap moments when SM/WG are on cooldown.

I find it very situational but something we could use. Give you the best example I can think of for this tier at the moment..Resto Druid on Ji Kun nest team during quills. Trivializes it. Using this spell is far easier in small groups. Larger groups SM/WG/Shrooms pull far ahead in cost/healing.



Rejuv is what ~9000 mana?, So, Rejuv - Genesis would be 18,000 mana. Rejuv with the 5th tick breakpoint should heal for a total of around 120,000 (before Mastery gain) with 40,000 SP, which is accelerated to being over a 3 second window.

Compare that to:

Divine Light - 21,600 mana - heals for 77,000 non Crit at 40,000 SP
Healing Surge - 20,570 mana - heals for around 76,000 non Crit at 40,000 SP
Flash Heal - 17,700 mana - heals for around 67,000 non Crit at 40,000 SP



I do not find it appropriate to compare our bread and butter raid heal to DL/HS/FH.

That was my entire point, using genesis for tank healing removes our active raid healing.
If Healing Surge costed the same, yet removed any active healing rain effects on the raid, would you consider HS a far more costly spell than advertised? (I do not know Shamans well, but for this example, we're pretty much assuming HR is used on near CD, I apologize for lack of shaman knowledge I am trying to relate it to your class)

It's not all about the immediate faceroll numbers. It's about the cost and all of the pre-planning. It's simply not as good as some people think in a raid situation. Down right OP in 5mans, Ji Kun nest duty type of healing.
Thus it is a welcome addition to the toolkit, but anyone thinking this is OP is foolish and needs to go on the PTR and actually try it.
Edited by Tonydanza on 6/28/2013 9:46 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
I've been seeing this point a lot lately and it just doesn't make sense to me. Follow my logic here and please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.

Non-genesis scenario - Players A, B, and C have rejuv running on them. In a 17 second window (Time offset to accomodate the GCD and application of the second and 3rd rejuv) they would receive 180,000 healing (using my healing partners average rejuv tick of 15k). Healing done during the 17 second window = 180,000

Genesis Scenario - Players A, B, and C have rejuv cast on them followed by genesis. They receive the same 180,000 healing in about 5 seconds. The druid reapplies rejuv to player A, B, and C. Which ticks the full duration on player A, gets 3 ticks out on player B, and two ticks on player C for a total of 135,000 healing. Healing done during the 17 second window = 315,000

What am I missing here that makes this not be an hps gain?

Note: I did not include additional hot ticks from haste for simplicity. But additional ticks would only make the number difference greater.


In the non-genesis scenerio you cast 3 rejuvs. In the Genesis scenerio you cast 6 rejuvs. I think that would be pretty obvious. The restriction you have is an artificial one that is saying only 3 specific players can be healed with one spell, making it so any more rejuvs would only clip the previous. Expand that to 6 players on the non-genesis scenario versus the genesis one with 3 players, and you have a better comparison that uses the same resources, with the exception of mana spent on genesis.

Anyway, it is easy to craft a scenario where Genesis increases HPS by setting a specific time interval and player cap. The longer you make the period and the more players you add, the HPS will actually drop in the absence of very specific burst healing. Bust healing is where it will really matter, where your rejuvs would otherwise be sniped.

Anyway, in sustained raid-wide damage, it is actually an HPS loss due to wasted GCDs and mana, I think that is the larger point.


But wouldn't the ability to rehot the players you just healed with genesis increase your hps/throughput? I'm just not following this logic at all. It seems to effectively increase the number of rejuvs you can put out. Assuming mana isn't a meaningful limiting factor, with the legendary meta, you can keep more rejuvs rolling during the encounter.

Honestly, not trying to start a battle at all. I merely do not understand how this is not a throughput gain.
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100 Tauren Druid
9405


In the non-genesis scenerio you cast 3 rejuvs. In the Genesis scenerio you cast 6 rejuvs. I think that would be pretty obvious. The restriction you have is an artificial one that is saying only 3 specific players can be healed with one spell, making it so any more rejuvs would only clip the previous. Expand that to 6 players on the non-genesis scenario versus the genesis one with 3 players, and you have a better comparison that uses the same resources, with the exception of mana spent on genesis.

Anyway, it is easy to craft a scenario where Genesis increases HPS by setting a specific time interval and player cap. The longer you make the period and the more players you add, the HPS will actually drop in the absence of very specific burst healing. Bust healing is where it will really matter, where your rejuvs would otherwise be sniped.

Anyway, in sustained raid-wide damage, it is actually an HPS loss due to wasted GCDs and mana, I think that is the larger point.


But wouldn't the ability to rehot the players you just healed with genesis increase your hps/throughput? I'm just not following this logic at all. It seems to effectively increase the number of rejuvs you can put out. Assuming mana isn't a meaningful limiting factor, with the legendary meta, you can keep more rejuvs rolling during the encounter.

Honestly, not trying to start a battle at all. I merely do not understand how this is not a throughput gain.


Never debated it to be a theorhetical throughput gain but
"Assuming mana isn't a meaningful limiting factor" is a rather large assumption for our number one mana spender no?
Genesis is limited by two factors, one your mana, two, GCD's.

It simply is not a practical throughput gain because by nature the use of this spell is going to be situational, highly limited by mana and GCD's. In theory it does indeed provide more healing in a non-stacked AE healing situation. Theory vs Practical.

I think you're misreading the argument. The GCD's is highly limiting in a raidwide AE situation because by nature, Shrooms>SM>WG take less GCD's and less mana and do similar AE healing.
Edited by Tonydanza on 6/28/2013 11:11 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555


But wouldn't the ability to rehot the players you just healed with genesis increase your hps/throughput? I'm just not following this logic at all. It seems to effectively increase the number of rejuvs you can put out. Assuming mana isn't a meaningful limiting factor, with the legendary meta, you can keep more rejuvs rolling during the encounter.

Honestly, not trying to start a battle at all. I merely do not understand how this is not a throughput gain.


Never debated it to be a theorhetical throughput gain but
"Assuming mana isn't a meaningful limiting factor" is a rather large assumption for our number one mana spender no?
Genesis is limited by two factors, one your mana, two, GCD's.

It simply is not a flat throughput gain because by nature the use of this spell is going to be situational, highly limited by mana and GCD's Theory vs Practical.

I think you're misreading the argument. The GCD's is highly limiting in a raidwide AE situation because by nature, Shrooms>SM>WG take less GCD's and less mana and do similar AE healing.


Fair points. You have the meta gem. Have you found mana to be an issue? For me, with the meta, I'm reforging out of spirit like hot potato.

I guess maybe I'm looking at a spell that would solve a lot of shaman problems and wondering why you guys don't seem to think much of it.
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100 Tauren Druid
9405


Never debated it to be a theorhetical throughput gain but
"Assuming mana isn't a meaningful limiting factor" is a rather large assumption for our number one mana spender no?
Genesis is limited by two factors, one your mana, two, GCD's.

It simply is not a flat throughput gain because by nature the use of this spell is going to be situational, highly limited by mana and GCD's Theory vs Practical.

I think you're misreading the argument. The GCD's is highly limiting in a raidwide AE situation because by nature, Shrooms>SM>WG take less GCD's and less mana and do similar AE healing.


Fair points. You have the meta gem. Have you found mana to be an issue? For me, with the meta, I'm reforging out of spirit like hot potato.

I guess maybe I'm looking at a spell that would solve a lot of shaman problems and wondering why you guys don't seem to think much of it.


Well I see a spell that is useful and welcome addition, but situational and laugh at anyone who thinks it's OP or a core part of our toolkit.
Do I find mana to be an issue is a good question and actually ties really well into Genesis; Only when I am highly liberal with my Rejuvs, which Genesis would easily compound.

I think many people view a new spell in a vacuum, without thinking that with a new tier, comes tighter mana constraints until, once again, we outgear it.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
06/28/2013 10:51 AMPosted by Luvbacon
It seems to effectively increase the number of rejuvs you can put out.


Your scenario is restricted to using just one spell and using it on a limited number of targets. That's why it's a throughput gain.

Edit: Fixed weird quoting error.
Edited by Aurinaux on 6/28/2013 11:23 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
The problem with Druids for years has been their burst healing. That's why they gave Druids their Resto Mushroom in the first place. Its been clear over the expansion that HoT healers just aren't keeping up (as much because their HoT's just get sniped by the massive absorbs going out from Hpallies and Disc Priests as anything else). However, Monks have been able to more or less keep up with absorb healers thanks to mechanics like Uplift. Genesis looks to me like the Druid answer to Uplift: burst healing that synergizes with your main HoT.

Is it an HPS increase? Well, I'm not so familiar with the mechanic or Druid mechanics right now in general, as my Druid is still 86 and rocking the Dragon Soul gear. But I think this question misses the point of Genesis. Genesis may look meh on paper, but it will allow Druids to handle burst situations in the real world (and probably look better on the meters as a result, anyway). It will let you convert more of that overhealing into useful healing. Sounds pretty awesome, and who cares if its an HPS/HPM increase?

But...

Is it an HPS increase? Again, not 100% familiar with how it works, but sounds like it to me. Takes all the potential healing from your Rejuv and drastically decreases the timeframe for that heal. That's more little green numbers per second *IF* what we're talking about is something like Interrupting Jolt - a quick burst of damage, and not something like Rampage - big damage over a period of time. So, basically, long term its a HPS loss, but sometimes what you really need is that short term HPS gain (otherwise known as "burst healing"), and that its worth the tradeoff in long term HPS.

Is it an HPM increase? Likely no on a strictly spreadsheet basis. But who cares? Flash Heal isn't an HPM increase, either, but you still use it from time to time.

In other words, if you expect this to be an ability you use as often as possible for long periods of ticking AOE damage, you are looking at this ability completely the wrong way.
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100 Worgen Druid
12800


In the non-genesis scenerio you cast 3 rejuvs. In the Genesis scenerio you cast 6 rejuvs. I think that would be pretty obvious. The restriction you have is an artificial one that is saying only 3 specific players can be healed with one spell, making it so any more rejuvs would only clip the previous. Expand that to 6 players on the non-genesis scenario versus the genesis one with 3 players, and you have a better comparison that uses the same resources, with the exception of mana spent on genesis.

Anyway, it is easy to craft a scenario where Genesis increases HPS by setting a specific time interval and player cap. The longer you make the period and the more players you add, the HPS will actually drop in the absence of very specific burst healing. Bust healing is where it will really matter, where your rejuvs would otherwise be sniped.

Anyway, in sustained raid-wide damage, it is actually an HPS loss due to wasted GCDs and mana, I think that is the larger point.


But wouldn't the ability to rehot the players you just healed with genesis increase your hps/throughput? I'm just not following this logic at all. It seems to effectively increase the number of rejuvs you can put out. Assuming mana isn't a meaningful limiting factor, with the legendary meta, you can keep more rejuvs rolling during the encounter.

Honestly, not trying to start a battle at all. I merely do not understand how this is not a throughput gain.


Genesis will never under any circumstances increase the number of rejuvenations you can cast ON THE RAID, only decrease it by using GCDs. I am also also speaking about 25s, in 10s it is slightly different but the same general concept holds.

You are confusing the amount of healing rejuvenation can do on a small group of targets (by using Genesis to clear them and refresh rejuvenation earlier) with the total potential healing it can do using its maximum targets (11-12 players) if you are allowed to freely cast on the whole raid.

Lets make it simpler, assume there is no over-healing, each rejuvenation does 100,000 healing, and a fight that is 1000 seconds long:

Without Genesis and spamming only Rejuvenation you could cast 1000 and do 100 million healing.

Now lets say we use Genesis after every 12 casts, then reapply 12, and repeat. In the end you would cast 923 Rejuvenations and 77 Genesis' and do 92.3 million healing.

The only difference between the two (other than using Gensis having less healing done) is one would have a flat HPS graph and the other would be a cycle of high and low HPS. With no over-healing (sustained damage) the flat graph for higher total healing is better.

If we then impose potential over-healing, that is where Genesis can be helpful. If those high and low HPS cycles match a damage pattern, it is a good thing. BUT if someone used the spell poorly, and used Genesis at times where there was little damage, the over-healing would probably be worse than not using it at all.

So, while Genesis has lots of potential and I am excited for it, it also has its costs, and can potentially be mis-used by those who do not understand it.
Edited by Fangthorn on 6/29/2013 8:27 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
That makes sense. I guess I was thinking (10 man perspective) that a limiting factor would be the number of targets without a rolling rejuv. The ability to clear it ad then reapply rejuv would be great as long as they needed the healing. But if that's not the limiting factor, than I agree that it would never be an hps gain.

Thanks for clearing that up.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7655
Even in a 10m, if you prioritize lifebloom > rejuv > all, you will only have at most a 3.5 second window to cast a non-rejuv ability.

More realistically, if you need to blanket rejuv like that, you will also want to be using swiftmend (note that swiftmend usage may change depending on the implementation of the new glyph) and wild growth more or less on cooldown, which will essentially account for all of your active time.

Throwing genesis into that mix means you most likely lose a rejuv, or at least part of one, and that's not all... Genesis also will see use primarily as a way to limit overhealing (since using it is an HPET loss). When a reasonable amount of rejuv overhealing is present despite enough incoming damage to warrant blanketing, additional GCDs (or one GCD next patch) to place mushrooms will probably also be beneficial, making it fairly unlikely that you'll be consistently target-capped on rejuv.
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100 Night Elf Druid
14515
How long does a full rejuvenation take to expire after genesis is cast (i.e. Rejuv -> Genesis on 2 consecutive GCDs)?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7655
A little over 3 seconds.

Rejuv is 12 base, but just above first haste bp, it will last for 13.5s. The GCD triggered by rejuv means that when you cast Genesis, it will have 12.5s remaining. When genesis triggers, it will reduce the time remaining on rejuv to 1/4 of normal, bringing it to 3.125s
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