Sad State of R. Shaman: Mechanics Oriented P2


I'm afraid you're right. It's almost like they just want to ignore us and hope we'll go away so they don't have to face up to their incompetence.


Like I said in the PTR forum, create another healer in the PTR and mess around with it. You will marvel at how ridiculously easy it is to utilize compared to your Shaman toolset. I just messed around with the new Druid healing tools, and they're ridiculously good. Not only are the talents superb, but Genesis and the new Mushroom are amazing abilities that sufficiently compliment the Druid healing spec.

Back to the talents... Can we please get the Druid talent designers to work on the Shaman talents please?
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90 Draenei Shaman
5475
No one here would be sorry to see Shaman Mastery get revamped


I would. I think it is an awesome ability that is crippled by encounter design that revolves around extreme spikes and topping off. I would like to see MORE PLAYER STAMINA and Deep Healing being allowed to actually do its thing. Because, ultimately, healing *should* be about healing people who have taken damage. Too many healers spamming their fastest heals on a minor scratch, heedless of mana, for fear that the next hit will be for 90% of max HP is really, really bad gameplay.

Also: post thread with a title claiming it is "mechanics oriented", link to meters 5 times in the original post. This won't end well.
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22 Gnome Warrior
80
The link to world first shaman discussion was very interesting, but do we really need to rehash the same stuff as in the first thread? You should have waited for the thread to cap and ask that it be extended. Hopefully a dev will lock this and redirect to the previous to keep everything together.

To summarize the position of the opposition:

- Resto shaman mechanics are fine and fun.

- Resto utility and raid cooldowns are some of the best.

- Group emergency healing is fantastic.

- Spread healing needs some tweaks for 10 man and spread intensive fights. Riptide/Chain Heal can do it but need careful balancing.

- Mastery is either a God Send or God Awful. But people focus way too much on healing meters.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
07/01/2013 06:16 AMPosted by Akatia
No one here would be sorry to see Shaman Mastery get revamped


I would. I think it is an awesome ability that is crippled by encounter design that revolves around extreme spikes and topping off. I would like to see MORE PLAYER STAMINA and Deep Healing being allowed to actually do its thing. Because, ultimately, healing *should* be about healing people who have taken damage. Too many healers spamming their fastest heals on a minor scratch, heedless of mana, for fear that the next hit will be for 90% of max HP is really, really bad gameplay.

Also: post thread with a title claiming it is "mechanics oriented", link to meters 5 times in the original post. This won't end well.


The deep healing mastery is an excellent concept, but it will never be anything other than gimped with the current fight design, healing design, amount of absorbs present, amount of passive and smart healing present, amount and power of raid CDs and hybrid healing, etc. It isn't very likely that they are going to nerf 5 other healing specs as well as raid cooldowns, as well as offspec healing just to make the mastery for one healing spec be effective.

It also cripples Resto PvE, because it is strong in PvP and makes it nearly impossible to buff abilities that are heavily used in PvP. The "stacked healing niche" excuse and the fact that they never buff anything but HR/CH has more to do with the fact that our mastery means they can't buff anything else due to PvP balance concerns. The stacked healing niche is more of an excuse to cover up the fact that they can't buff anything else due to our mastery.

Basically, we get double screwed by Mastery. For one, it's complete garbage in most raiding situations, and has been progressively getting more and more terrible with every tier since it was introduced. For another, we can't get the buffs we need because of how it interacts in PvP. It needs to be canned and reworked ASAP.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
What we need is...
an instant direct AoE heal that has strong power, good range and a reasonably high mana cost on some moderate CD / recharge. (wtb charges)

Which really fixes my primary issue:
Mobility
Slow Recovery from Burst / Utilizing Mastery in the tiny low health window
Spread AoE

Mainly in 25's my issue is the burst recovery. 25H Lei Shen gives you 2-5 seconds to recover the raid from a 400-500k all player hit before other 400k hits happen. We have neither absorbs nor instant burst AOE recovery. You can't even get off a second chain heal usually, and you are usually moving during it. You just keep healing rain on the melee and hope the other healers do all the work for you.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9675
I barely play anymore so my comments come from the bleachers.

Deep Healing is a legacy of the Cata Healing revamp that hasn't kept up with the new paradigm in Pandaland. Deep Healing came to being when the devs had visions of Raids regularly sitting at half health. Weak heals, large HP pools and healers starving for mana was the intent. That's out the window it seems and Deep Healing has been left behind for the most part.

For spread healing I'll reiterate a thought I posted back in Cata....

The way Tidal Waves works either GHW or Healing Surge becomes forgotten. One or the other is always going to be superior. It just doesn't make sense to have two spells that wind up being so similar to each other while under the Tidal Waves buff.

Since GHW seems best suited to stay as is I suggest Healing Surge should have a different effect while Tidal Waves is up. In fact the entire spell and it's spell icon should change. Something along the lines of a heal that spreads out from the target healing players in a circle of xx meters in diameter. Something Wave like to fit the Shaman theme.

Increase the mana cost if necessary based on the expected healing.

That would give Shaman....

A quick Emergency Heal (Healing Surge without Tidal Waves)
A big, fast Single target heal (GHW under Tidal Waves)
A go to area effect heal for spread encounters (Healing Surge under Tidal Waves)

One new spell effect using an old mechanic.
Edited by Indyana on 7/1/2013 11:05 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
13165
07/01/2013 06:16 AMPosted by Akatia
No one here would be sorry to see Shaman Mastery get revamped


I would. I think it is an awesome ability that is crippled by encounter design that revolves around extreme spikes and topping off. I would like to see MORE PLAYER STAMINA and Deep Healing being allowed to actually do its thing. Because, ultimately, healing *should* be about healing people who have taken damage. Too many healers spamming their fastest heals on a minor scratch, heedless of mana, for fear that the next hit will be for 90% of max HP is really, really bad gameplay.

Also: post thread with a title claiming it is "mechanics oriented", link to meters 5 times in the original post. This won't end well.


And...many more people probably wouldn't have an issue with Mastery if it actually worked well. The problem with "cool concepts that only work in theory" is just that. It would be one thing if it were simply one tier of the Mastery not working well, but this has basically been a problem since its inception. Even fights that should have catered to Shaman Mastery more than any other in the past (Chimeraon, Baleroc) didn't reliably translate to results that made up for their deficiencies. Moreover, it's already been said, but this Mastery causes huge balance concerns with PvP, which has been likely leading to PvE Resto Shaman receiving needed fixes in an extremely slow fashion, if at all.

It's had plenty of time to justify itself and it hasn't. It needs to go, or be so revamped from now that it's basically brand new. It's not realistic or feasible to expect the entire meta to change to support the playstyle of one spec, so it should be the other way around. The same goes for PvP: if it's so good it's effecting PvE balance this much (and it is), that is completely unacceptable.

And as for the logs, they are symptoms of mechanical problems that lead to fight ineffectiveness, displayed by HPS and fight context. If Shaman still had mechanical problems (most classes do) but this was not actually translating to a poor performance, it would be less of a concern. What makes Resto Shaman such an issue is that they have a poor showing across the tier, even in their "niche" like Megara and Ra-den. And when they are not in their niche (most other fights) or in their "worst" fights (like Dark Animus) the disparity is too great. That leads to the spec being extremely unreliable in comparison to any other regarding fight effectiveness and completion.
Edited by Thaimaishu on 7/1/2013 11:53 AM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
With the updated patch notes, they actually buffed Priests (by making Hymn of Hope always target a healer) and buffed Druids (by making Living Seed not trigger on 100% HP targets), but gave Shaman NOTHING. This is despite testing from top raid guilds showing them upwards of 100% behind on all fights that have been tested so far. I really don't get why minor buffs to specs that are more than fine as is take priority over any Shaman adjustments whatsoever. They need to make the changes we are getting and allow time for it to be properly tested before spending time on non-essential QoL stuff.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
With the updated patch notes, they actually buffed Priests (by making Hymn of Hope always target a healer) and buffed Druids (by making Living Seed not trigger on 100% HP targets), but gave Shaman NOTHING. This is despite testing from top raid guilds showing them upwards of 100% behind on all fights that have been tested so far. I really don't get why minor buffs to specs that are more than fine as is take priority over any Shaman adjustments whatsoever. They need to make the changes we are getting and allow time for it to be properly tested before spending time on non-essential QoL stuff.


Ummm... I get what you're saying, but you really need to learn how to word things, Tiberria. This honestly sounds like whining. Whining because they made Hymn of Hope only target healers? Really? That still doesn't guarantee that I'll get the buff if there are healers with lower mana than I have. SMH. Seriously.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
07/01/2013 11:58 AMPosted by Tiberria
I really don't get why minor buffs to specs that are more than fine as is take priority over any Shaman adjustments whatsoever.


Maybe they want everyone to play priests and MW'ers /shrug

Shaman mastery does need to be rethought. Maybe they will finally give up in it next expac because it is flawed for the pve world. Though it will hurt pvp resto shaman a lot.
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90 Human Priest
13720
the secret is to only use hymn of hope when you're lower than everyone... wait, that never happens.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
07/01/2013 12:00 PMPosted by Tiriel
With the updated patch notes, they actually buffed Priests (by making Hymn of Hope always target a healer) and buffed Druids (by making Living Seed not trigger on 100% HP targets), but gave Shaman NOTHING. This is despite testing from top raid guilds showing them upwards of 100% behind on all fights that have been tested so far. I really don't get why minor buffs to specs that are more than fine as is take priority over any Shaman adjustments whatsoever. They need to make the changes we are getting and allow time for it to be properly tested before spending time on non-essential QoL stuff.


Ummm... I get what you're saying, but you really need to learn how to word things, Tiberria. This honestly sounds like whining. Whining because they made Hymn of Hope only target healers? Really? That still doesn't guarantee that I'll get the buff if there are healers with lower mana than I have. SMH. Seriously.


I am not whining about it - obviously, it's a change that should have been made awhile ago. However, I don't think it's something that is more than a minor QoL change, and I don't think its the type of thing that should be looked at before mechanics issues that are leaving one spec 50-100% behind across all tested fights so far are even touched.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
Shaman mastery is fine under the right situations. Akatia is right on about needing more stamina...

My suggestion (which has been largely ignored by team blue over the last 6 months, at least in practice)...
They just need to increase the amount of base health / health given by stamina such that players no longer need to have the full 65% resilience and they can remove the 45% healing reduction altogether.

Currently in PVP players who have 500k health have baseline 1.5M health.

Imagine if players instead of having 500k health had 900k health. The healer debuff was removed. And Resilience was reduced to 35%.

The issue with our mastery is that it depends on players getting low and staying low. Which requires only bringing enough healers to keep up with healing. The issue is that you don't bring enough healers to keep up with healing... instead you bring enough healers to keep everyone topped off. Because any combination of 2 mechanics is a gib.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11370
I think we are destined to 6.0 and higher “HELP ME! I’m a Restro Shaman” threads. I think shaman will become good at formulating arguments and still suck at PVE healing. They will be bench warming, listening for their names to be called over vent on those few stack fights on raid nights. There will be support groups with names like “I still worked in LK”, “That DS Sure Was Something”, or “The Sad Shaman Stack Point” all serving cheap coffee, stale donuts, and starting with “My name is_____ and I’m a restoration shaman.” There will be testimonials to what George or Lucy did with their resto shaman, “I made mine into a bank…”, or “I sometimes throw healing rain on the raiders dummies cause they stand still…”. Shaman teir sets will have cardboard signs like “Have food for raid”, “They told me I could heal…” or “The man took it all but my still got my mana tide”. To put it succinctly shaman tears will fall like healing rain.

The problem isn’t HPS or mechanics it is shaman have no hope for a future
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I am not whining about it - obviously, it's a change that should have been made awhile ago. However, I don't think it's something that is more than a minor QoL change, and I don't think its the type of thing that should be looked at before mechanics issues that are leaving one spec 50-100% behind across all tested fights so far are even touched.


Yes, but calling it a buff and complaining that "Priests are being buffed by this" isn't helpful. It's a QoL change, not a buff. :-\

I think you'd do better to focus on the fact that all...what is it...5...fights we've tested so far are absolutely horrendous for Shaman.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930


I think you'd do better to focus on the fact that all...what is it...5...fights we've tested so far are absolutely horrendous for Shaman.


Which is why the amount of developer attention on QOL changes instead of spending time figuring out a way to make Resto Shaman not broken is so infuriating. There have been multiple times where our concerns have been ignored for months of a PTR/beta cycle, and when they finally respond they shut it down with "we are done changing mechanics and only care about numbers now".
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930


I think you'd do better to focus on the fact that all...what is it...5...fights we've tested so far are absolutely horrendous for Shaman.


Which is why the amount of developer attention on QOL changes instead of spending time figuring out a way to make Resto Shaman not broken is so infuriating. There have been multiple times where our concerns have been ignored for months of a PTR/beta cycle, and when they finally respond they shut it down with "we are done changing mechanics and only care about numbers now".


Well, here's the thing, though. You're pushing that Resto Shaman should be buffed to the high heavens for stack healing, and that everyone else should be nerfed so Resto Shaman are the best. And I'm still telling you that it won't matter because all of these fights have so much spread/movement, no one will bring you anyway.

What Blizzard needs to do is freaking FIX SHAMAN SPREAD HEALING.
Edited by Tiriel on 7/1/2013 12:55 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
10005
just delete restoration shaman and change it to Earthwarder which is a tanking shaman
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86 Undead Priest
18490
Guys blood legion sat down their shamans in the ptr, I think it's time to reroll. We will be 200% behind all healers next patch (or even more).
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Guys blood legion sat down their shamans in the ptr, I think it's time to reroll. We will be 200% behind all healers next patch (or even more).


What are percentages, and how do they work?
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