Sad State of R. Shaman: Mechanics Oriented P2

90 Troll Shaman
18930
Not sure why this surprises anyone, it's worked like this for years:

1. New expansion, all shaman specs hilariously undertuned.
2. Blizzard denies there's a problem and let's the class rot for 6+ months, then gives a ~25% buff almost every major patch after.
3. Final major patch of the expansion, shamans are good.
4. Repeat.


Except, it's looking like we won't even get the last phase of the expansion situation where Shaman are actually good for a tier. All indications out of both PTR changes (they are basically buffing every other spec except Paladins and giving us irrelevant changes), and the SoO fight mechanics (all 7 fights that have been tested so far lack stacked healing as any meaningful component of the fight) point to Shaman being more worthless than any healer has been in the history of this game next tier.
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Please note that a 20% buff to those spells isn't a significant buff, except for HR, and HR's limitations makes the 20% buff to that spell pretty irrelevant. They're probably going to buff HR again, and it isn't going to do anything to help the Shaman situation.

You missed the point. What I meant is that there ARE several alternatives to buff us without stepping on PvP ground. The flat 20% buffs where an example, but several other posibilites can be done such as making ELW actually worthwhile, removing the 30% healing reduction from CH jumps, adjusting healing rain tick intervals (maybe make it work like WG, healing more on the first ticks), etc. We're very unlikely to see major changes at this point until 6.0, but there are still simple alternatives they can do to make us not feel useless while preserving some PvP balance.

Edit: I should say that these are *not* the best solutions to our situation, but right now I don't think we're going to see any truly relevant changes given that it is the last tier of the expansion and GC's stubborness to keep the stacked niche on us no matter what.
Edited by Korghal on 7/1/2013 7:02 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Because it has hardware issues. It's going to eventually be broken, so they need a fix which may necessitate removing it and replacing it with something else.


I do not believe this for one second, and neither should you.
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"Hardware issues" was the reason they gave us for not being able to increase CH's jump further than 12.5 yds for years. Now we have a glyph that increases it much further than that range and the world did not explode, but they did make sure to make fun of us by making it a glyph with a horrible downside.

Hardware issues is hardly a believable excuse to see Chain Heal kept the way it is nor a valid argument to have it removed and replaced.
Edited by Korghal on 7/1/2013 7:06 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
07/01/2013 06:47 PMPosted by Korghal
Please note that a 20% buff to those spells isn't a significant buff, except for HR, and HR's limitations makes the 20% buff to that spell pretty irrelevant. They're probably going to buff HR again, and it isn't going to do anything to help the Shaman situation.

You missed the point. What I meant is that there ARE several alternatives to buff us without stepping on PvP ground. The flat 20% buffs where an example, but several other posibilites can be done such as making ELW actually worthwhile, removing the 30% healing reduction from CH jumps, adjusting healing rain tick intervals (maybe make it work like WG, healing more on the first ticks), etc. We're very unlikely to see major changes at this point until 6.0, but there are still simple alternatives they can do to make us not feel useless while preserving some PvP balance.


The real issue is, what can they buff (outside of straight Healing Rain/CH throughput buffs) without affecting PvP? The single target direct heals are out of the question. Making Chain Heal instant cast, or adjusting glyphed Riptide so it is actually competitive (as in much less initial heal reduction) is out of the question too. HST buffs are pretty much out of the question. Adding any new instant cast ability is probably also out of the question. You actually can't do too much with ELW either without PvP impacts because of the automatic sub-35% HP triggering. What we're left with is probably major Healing Rain buffs, and major buffs to the output of Chain Heal (without changing the actual mechanics).

Frankly, the easiest fix that they would have that would instantly restore Shaman viability and at least make output more reasonable would be to make HTT baseline, consider it our "raid cooldown", buff it in line with the Tranq and DH 5.3 buffs, and then pull SLT out and put it in HTT's place in the talent tree. I suspect that if they did that, we would take Ancestral Guidance over SLT except on fights where SLT shines. The combination of the 240% buff to HTT and being able to have AG too would work out to around a 20% buff. We would also have a raid cooldown that is competitive with other raid cooldowns, as well as significant cooldown based burst (Ascendance every 3 minutes, HTT every 3 minutes, AG every 2 minutes).

Our base mechanics would still be garbage, and we would suck outside of those cooldowns (even more than we do now with how SoO fight mechanics look), but the combination of strong burst for the most difficult part of the fights, MTT, Ancestral Vigor, and Stormlash would probably be enough to ensure that you aren't gimping yourself with a Resto Shaman. That would be a decent band-aid fix with minimal PvP impact that would be able to tide us through this tier until they can make sweeping changes for the next expansion.
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Okay, so looking over the new PTR notes, Blizzard must think that Shaman are fine.

It was a nice effort guys, but I think this spec is boned.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
What Blizzard needs to do is freaking FIX SHAMAN SPREAD HEALING.
Edited by Marathel on 7/1/2013 10:38 PM PDT
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Also to add no offense to the thread. Wait for the right PTR build. There are literally at least a dozen very good threads about shamans these last few days but nobody will see ANYTHING done because the PTR build where they are going to throw tons of shaman changes ain't here yet. And already got confirmation they are coming.

A ton of good ideas have been thrown around. Wait to see what Blizzard responds with then continue with more feedback. "Hotfixes" don't exist in the PTR so throwing more gasoline on the fire isn't going to make the helicopter get there faster when it already has an arrival time that we just don't know yet. Sorry bad analogy. Changes come with the right build. But I do understand the frustration too don't get me wrong. I have two resto shamans at level 90 and 1 geared, 1 somewhat.

To be honest I somewhat doubt they will fully tackle the spread out healing problems but I do hope they give the necessary amount of buffs needed for the spec.


This is BS. We're always told, "Hey wait guys, don't panic just yet. There are still PTR builds to come. They'll do something for you! Just you wait and see!" Yet, with every major content patch and every new expansion, we wait, and get next to nothing. It's more than frustrating at this point.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as rude. Please know that this isn't directed at you in particular.
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90 Tauren Paladin
14370
Make Tidal Waves' haste effect the cast time of CH as well.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
This is BS. We're always told, "Hey wait guys, don't panic just yet. There are still PTR builds to come. They'll do something for you! Just you wait and see!" Yet, with every major content patch and every new expansion, we wait, and get next to nothing. It's more than frustrating at this point.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as rude. Please know that this isn't directed at you in particular.


Don't worry about it. I changed my post again because I thought what I wanted to say sort of has been said already. I don't play my shamans as much as my paladins but they're my second favorite healers most of the time.

Regarding spread out healing you're totally right on the mark there. Issue has been going on for quite a while without a fix. Everything else is justifiable more or less, debatable here and there but on spread out healing...

Yeah its been one of the longest issues with any healer that has not changed at all and it has been refused to be addressed.

Buffs are coming. That has been confirmed already but if they're enough or the ones that shamans want...that will have to be seen. And its understandable that most aren't optimistic about these buffs.

I'm expecting personally a buff to HR, CH, riptide possibly to be honest. Maybe a throughput buff to GHW too. As sad as it is I would be stunned if they buffed HTT, SLT too.
Edited by Marathel on 7/1/2013 11:12 PM PDT
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Also to add no offense to the thread. Wait for the right PTR build. There are literally at least a dozen very good threads about shamans these last few days but nobody will see ANYTHING done because the PTR build where they are going to throw tons of shaman changes ain't here yet. And already got confirmation they are coming.

A ton of good ideas have been thrown around. Wait to see what Blizzard responds with then continue with more feedback. "Hotfixes" don't exist in the PTR so throwing more gasoline on the fire isn't going to make the helicopter get there faster when it already has an arrival time that we just don't know yet. Sorry bad analogy. Changes come with the right build. But I do understand the frustration too don't get me wrong. I have two resto shamans at level 90 and 1 geared, 1 somewhat.

To be honest I somewhat doubt they will fully tackle the spread out healing problems but I do hope they give the necessary amount of buffs needed for the spec.


This is BS. We're always told, "Hey wait guys, don't panic just yet. There are still PTR builds to come. They'll do something for you! Just you wait and see!" Yet, with every major content patch and every new expansion, we wait, and get next to nothing. It's more than frustrating at this point.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as rude. Please know that this isn't directed at you in particular.


Pretty much. Other classes are getting PTR abilities balanced and reworked at this point. I would be pleasantly surprised to see significant Shaman upgrades at this point. It's like Beta all over again.

I'm amazed that that version of Conductivity is still on the PTR. It's actually worse than the live version of the talent.
Edited by Teriz on 7/1/2013 11:13 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8420
I'm amazed that that version of Conductivity is still on the PTR. It's actually worse than the live version of the talent.


From Ghostcrawlers twitter

The idea is you can keep HR going without spending the cast time just by casting other spells.


Do you think he even realizes resto shamans can't even pick up this talent?
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100 Draenei Shaman
6480
07/02/2013 12:25 AMPosted by Abathur
The idea is you can keep HR going without spending the cast time just by casting other spells.


Do you think he even realizes resto shamans can't even pick up this talent?


The mind boggles.


Okay, so looking over the new PTR notes, Blizzard must think that Shaman are fine.

It was a nice effort guys, but I think this spec is boned.


Sure looking that way.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11630
Here's what I want for shaman:
CH double range, no CD, cast while moving, reverse order of bounce or baseline riptide buff.

I want CH to still be this iconic heal that it used to be, it just needs to be updated. Reversing the order has two effects 1) it makes it less desireable to spam when it might only hit 2 targets, 2) the large hit hitting the riptide target means that target is topped, wasting any further first target advantage on them. Downside is it makes the heal smarter (more needy targets getting the biggest heals). Heck make it so unleash elements allows you to do the move while casting CH for 10s so the spell is useful most of the time!

This fixes the spread healing issue (to some extent - resto will still probably be the weakest spread healers even with this) and gives some mobility to healing a raid that is spread. With additional buffs should keep the 'stacked niche'.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9210
Do you think he even realizes resto shamans can't even pick up this talent?


I imagine them trying to explain they're not the kind of rshaman that has tide and then getting laughed all the way back to shrine.
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100 Troll Shaman
15270
07/01/2013 06:55 PMPosted by Tiriel
Because it has hardware issues. It's going to eventually be broken, so they need a fix which may necessitate removing it and replacing it with something else.


I do not believe this for one second, and neither should you.


Honestly, I don't either. But if that's what they want to say, it's further proof that it's outdated, breakable, not usable, and an unworkable AoE tool. Which means, hey! Resto Shams need an AoE tool, quod erat demonstrat.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8420
Reading Mr. Streets tweeter it would seem he intends for Shamans to dominate stacked fights and to compensate be behind everywhere else.

Do the develops take this approach with any other class? Are there certain fight mechanics that make a class number one just from their kits design?

Or is this flip of a coin, stacked fight Shamans are automatically the best, spread fight you're the lowest contributor, the thing that makes shaman unlike any other class?

I use present tense there because the devs intend to have us be the undisputed best stacked healers. So you know when that's implemented it will be true.
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07/02/2013 12:25 AMPosted by Abathur
I'm amazed that that version of Conductivity is still on the PTR. It's actually worse than the live version of the talent.


From Ghostcrawlers twitter

The idea is you can keep HR going without spending the cast time just by casting other spells.


Do you think he even realizes resto shamans can't even pick up this talent?


Um, wtf? He can't really be serious with that tweet. The majority of the spells that allow Conductivity to work have 2.5 (base) second cast times! Maybe if Conductivity increased the duration by 3 seconds per cast it could work. But seriously, spamming healing or attack spells to keep HR up is not my idea of a fun or cool talent.

Heck, the current version of Conductivity is better than the terrible PTR version.
Edited by Teriz on 7/2/2013 5:26 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
15480
Make Tidal Waves' haste effect the cast time of CH as well.


And buff CH by 30%. Range is fine imo.
Edited by Taelaus on 7/2/2013 5:41 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
6480
07/02/2013 01:50 AMPosted by Abathur
Reading Mr. Streets tweeter it would seem he intends for Shamans to dominate stacked fights and to compensate be behind everywhere else.


Well, they've definitely nailed the "behind everywhere else" thing. Nailed it.

And "everywhere else" means 90+% of the content, so the perfection of the Resto Shaman class concept (in Ghostcrawler's addled view, anyway) is nearly complete.

What an exciting time to be a Resto Shaman!
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