Sad State of R. Shaman: Mechanics Oriented P2

90 Troll Shaman
18930
Because it doesn't appear that they are moving off the "stacked healing niche" thing, here is a look at what the other healing specs would look like if they actually held every other healer to the same standard and gave them restricted niches

Paladins - "Tank healing niche" - Put them back to WoTLK design. Only beacon and single target heals. Remove all AoE heals from their toolkit

Druids - "HoT niche" - Get rid of Wild Mushrooms. Probably get rid of single target direct heals while they're at it, because we wouldn't want to risk "overshadowing their niche" in any way

Priests "Absorb niche" - No direct heals whatsoever. Only allow PoH, Greater Heal, etc to be usable while Spirit Shell is up. Otherwise, PW:S spam all day and all night (if that isn't already what's happening)

Mistweaver "Melee Fistweaving healer niche" - Delete all of their healing spells and have 100% of their output be made passive and be balanced around how much DPS they do. Don't even make them pay attention to raid frames.

This is possibly a bit of hyperbole, but isn't too far off from how healers would look if they treated every healer like they are treating Shaman
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93 Draenei Shaman
5610
It's not realistic or feasible to expect the entire meta to change to support the playstyle of one spec


100%-10%-100% in 2 seconds has to go whether shaman change or not. It is just terrible gameplay for everyone. If players have an amount of health that actually means something, shaman mastery will improve even without any shaman-specific changes. And if TTL is more similar between PvP and PvE, then we won't have the kind of "must be weak PvE for fear of being too strong in PvP" issues some people on this thread are claiming.

Instagibs are not fun gameplay in any type of content, anyway. (With the possible exception of "this never happens unless you epically failed at mechanics" instagibs, like Tortos breath. Those are irrelevant to healer balance because they are designed not to be healed through. I still wouldn't call them fun exactly, but they may have some valid uses in encounter design.)

Alternatively, they could keep the spirit of the mastery while making it less gimped by the topping-off environment by adjusting the formula so you get half the bonus all the time, ramping up to the full bonus at 1 HP. I.e. instead of the current 50% mastery = 0% effect at full HP, 10% at 80% HP, up to 50% at 1 HP, it would be 50% mastery = 25% bonus heal at full HP, 30% at 80% HP, up to 50% at 1 HP. (If some people here can be believed, this would actually not even be an overbuff if you just did it now, without changing the mastery rating coefficient at all.)

But that kind of encounter design change may not be able to happen mid expansion, so they will probably have to have some kind of band-aid for 5.4. I think they should remove the glyphs of riptide and chain heal, make the positive effects baseline and drop the negative effects completely. They are inching in the direction of reducing the penalties already, but need to take the plunge and just drop them.

Bottom line: Shaman need alternative tools for when encounter design makes healing rain impractical.
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100 Draenei Shaman
12110
Though I've tested only 10s and found the fights to range from 'this isn't so bad' to 'this is gonna suck' I still primarily raid 25s. I don't see many of the hurdles I'm facing in 10s to factor into my 25s.

The core issue with the shaman kit is that parts of the kit feel just useless in 10s. There is never a time, except Dark Animus, that I can't hit at least 3+ raiders with Healing Rain/Chain Heal in 25s. But that can happen in 10s unless your raiders make conscious efforts. Above an average/bad mastery, limited movement, and any other problem you want to claim the class has, that to me is the biggest issue. Chain Heal and Healing Rain just aren't as useful in 10s as they should be and it's not fun for pieces of the kit to feel useless in 10s.

Either way, in 25s I'm not seeing the issues as much as the people in these posts. I consistently top our healing charts as we down H Jin Rokh and hold my own in H Jikun and H Horridon (of the pulls we have made). I know anecdotal evidence and someone is gonna link me to raid bots but in 25s I don't have these problems.

10s is a whole different story and should in no way shape or form be ignored.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Either way, in 25s I'm not seeing the issues as much as the people in these posts. I consistently top our healing charts as we down H Jin Rokh and hold my own in H Jikun and H Horridon (of the pulls we have made). I know anecdotal evidence and someone is gonna link me to raid bots but in 25s I don't have these problems.

10s is a whole different story and should in no way shape or form be ignored.


There's probably a reason for that. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you're not pushing extremely difficult content with your group. You've done one heroic one time, and that's the only heroic content you've seen when it was relevant since T11. You've only killed most of the bosses in ToT a few times, and looking at your logs, you are not topping meters. You're high on the meters, yes, and you topped your last Lei Shen kill, yes. But those numbers are primarily because your Paladins and your Disc Priest are not pulling their weight. They're letting you win because they either don't care or don't know how to do their jobs (and your Disc Priest dies a lot).
Edited by Tiriel on 7/2/2013 6:48 AM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
The big issues are mainly later in the instance. Specifically Dark Animus and Lei Shen. They both have "burst" mechanics in them. Dark Animus combines them with being spread out generally. Lei Shen just has so much movement b/c you are running away from Thunderstrike as it goes off. Both abilities are on short timers (20 sec and 30 sec).

Either way, shaman's have no quick recovery buttons for these types of events. Druids HAD the same issue, so they gave them shrooms. Shaman's still have the issue.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930

Either way, in 25s I'm not seeing the issues as much as the people in these posts. I consistently top our healing charts as we down H Jin Rokh and hold my own in H Jikun and H Horridon (of the pulls we have made). I know anecdotal evidence and someone is gonna link me to raid bots but in 25s I don't have these problems.


Chances are the reasons why you are not seeing the issues is
(1) You haven't done any of the difficult heroic fights
(2) If you are consistently "topping healing charts" as a Resto Shaman, chances are you are healing with other healers that are absolutely terrible.
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
16845

Either way, in 25s I'm not seeing the issues as much as the people in these posts. I consistently top our healing charts as we down H Jin Rokh and hold my own in H Jikun and H Horridon (of the pulls we have made). I know anecdotal evidence and someone is gonna link me to raid bots but in 25s I don't have these problems.


Chances are the reasons why you are not seeing the issues is
(1) You haven't done any of the difficult heroic fights
(2) If you are consistently "topping healing charts" as a Resto Shaman, chances are you are healing with other healers that are absolutely terrible.


Oh please, or maybe he's just a good healer? I know that's hard to fathom..
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Oh please, or maybe he's just a good healer? I know that's hard to fathom..


Sure.

That's not what the logs show, tho. The ones I could find anyway. :-P Not everyone is you, Sensations.
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90 Pandaren Monk
3160
I said it before, and I'll say it again, Resto Shaman cast times are killing the spec. Even if they gave EB a healing component, it would still have a 2 sec cast. That's really prohibitive at this stage of WoW content.

Monks for example have an entire toolkit of (potential) instant healing spells.
Edited by Shaima on 7/2/2013 7:05 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
15480
Oh please, or maybe he's just a good healer? I know that's hard to fathom..


It's easier to flip the progression card than admit to such a thing. This your first day here Sen?
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100 Draenei Shaman
12110
Oh please, or maybe he's just a good healer? I know that's hard to fathom..


Heaven forbid that's a possibility though. Any priest or pally that 'loses' on healing charts is clearly bad. Because no one can be in a raid that works with them or no Shaman can possibly work with the sad mechanics.

Still I wish you would once log out in your Resto Spec so I could see your gear and talents. I'd like to try your setup in my 25s once. :)

Sure.

That's not what the logs show, tho. The ones I could find anyway. :-P Not everyone is you, Sensations.


Ouch
Edited by Elíka on 7/2/2013 7:07 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
07/02/2013 07:03 AMPosted by Taelaus
Oh please, or maybe he's just a good healer? I know that's hard to fathom..


It's easier to flip the progression card than admit to such a thing. This your first day here Sen?


I looked at her logs. She's better than most of her fellow healers, but they're not very good. You should go take a look at the Holy Paladin who can't seem to compete with her on anything and the Disc Priest that dies a lot.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Ouch


You're better than most of your cohealers. You have more situational awareness. But the reason you're doing so well on the meters is primarily due to their ineptitude, not your personal skill. When your guild is overhealing fights as much as they appear to be from the logs, there's no way you should ever be able to surpass a Disc Priest, much less with 3 Paladins in the raid, too.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
The problem is, every time you have Shaman with no real experience in content of any difficulty coming on the forums claiming everything is fine, etc, all it does is gives the validates the developers in ignoring very real and significant concerns. That is the problem with the Shaman community - I have rarely to never seen Druids (prior to the 5.3/5.4 buffs), Priests (back at the start of this expansion when they were having issues) or Paladins (with their current 5.4 issues) posting about how they think everything is fine. It seems to be something unique to the Shaman community, and all it does is dilute the message to the developers and empowers them to leave the spec in the terrible state that it is today.
Edited by Tiberria on 7/2/2013 7:13 AM PDT
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
16845
Still I wish you would once log out in your Resto Spec so I could see your gear and talents. I'd like to try your setup in my 25s once. :)


Just did since the servers did a restart haha. This is my resto spec, it's what I use :p(I change to Echo a lot though). Have to re-gem a bit though since I'm going back to full time Restoration this is a mix of ele/resto gems lol.

That's not what the logs show, tho. The ones I could find anyway. :-P Not everyone is you, Sensations.


The logs show a class who's mastery is severely gimped by progression, who's utility isn't shown well on meters, and who's heals are some of the most easily sniped unless stacked. I'm not saying we don't have our issues, but they're not as bad as people make them out to be. If just one person can make it work, so can others. Sitting here crying to Blizzard won't change anything, making yourself a better player will make your next raid week better.
Edited by Sensations on 7/2/2013 7:23 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
5740
I agree it seems silly to come to the forums and say "I consistently top our healing charts as we down H Jin Rokh" when you have one H Jin Rokh kill, but the devs don't seem to need "empowerment" to leave us gimped: they ignore even the stuff everybody agrees on.


Just did since the servers did a restart haha. This is my resto spec, it's what I use :p.


4750 Spirit.

*head asplodes*
Edited by Rheeah on 7/2/2013 7:26 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
The problem is, every time you have Shaman with no real experience in content of any difficulty coming on the forums claiming everything is fine, etc, all it does is gives the validates the developers in ignoring very real and significant concerns. That is the problem with the Shaman community - I have rarely to never seen Druids (prior to the 5.3/5.4 buffs), Priests (back at the start of this expansion when they were having issues) or Paladins (with their current 5.4 issues) posting about how they think everything is fine. It seems to be something unique to the Shaman community, and all it does is dilute the message to the developers and empowers them to leave the spec in the terrible state that it is today.


Okay...it's important to not discourage people from offering feedback. The reason, in my opinion, is that if someone is doing exceptionally well, we want to know how they're managing it. In Sensations' case, the man could probably heal through a blanket silence with one hand tied behind is back while suspended upsidedown. It is known.

But, in Sensations' case, I also happen to know that the man is a bloody drill sergeant with a heart of evil who will let his poor raid members die if they don't stand in the healing rain. Brutal. Cruel. But effective - his raid members end up brainwshed into loving his Healing Rain, as it is the only way they can survive. o_o

So in Sensations' case, the question is, should every Shaman player have to do that when no other healer has to? I would say no. Sensations would say, "Get on my level" because, like I said, he is a Shaman Tyrant. It's just, not everyone else can be Sensations.

It's also important to see if Shaman are having trouble in normal content, too. And if they're not, to try to figure out why that is. Might be their skill. Might be the lack of skill on the part of their co-healers. Might be that they're underhealing content. Just, if you aren't doing the difficult fights, say so. "On these fights I have no problems, but I'm not doing any of the heroic encounters." or "On this, this, and this fight I'm fine, seems to cater to me. On these three fights, I just have the worst time." Things like that.

I'm rambling. I'm very sick today so...yeah.
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100 Draenei Shaman
12110
The problem is, every time you have Shaman with no real experience in content of any difficulty coming on the forums claiming everything is fine, etc, all it does is gives the validates the developers in ignoring very real and significant concerns. That is the problem with the Shaman community - I have rarely to never seen Druids (prior to the 5.3/5.4 buffs), Priests (back at the start of this expansion when they were having issues) or Paladins (with their current 5.4 issues) posting about how they think everything is fine. It seems to be something unique to the Shaman community, and all it does is dilute the message to the developers and empowers them to leave the spec in the terrible state that it is today.


  • Guilds continue to bring Shaman's to world first, the most cutting edge of progression that none of us will see
  • People who are more progressed then myself show the class working
  • Tons of people are continuing to make the spec work from normal to early heroics to Lei Shen
  • Many Shamans are still brought for their contribution to their team. Maybe not stacked but still having at least 1 in 25s.
  • The class is clearly terrible.

    The class has flaws that were addressed in the first post of the first topic. Our mastery could use some tweaks. We could stand to be a little more mobile. Healing Rain is unfriendly in 10 mans. Running Mana Tide off our spirit wasn't probably the best idea because it further drove Shamans down the charts while others could gear for throughput.

    I and many others like the class, weaknesses and all. I've tweeted Blizzard and stood by for many of the buffs for the class and I still believe the spec has some issues. We don't need all of them but I've openly admitted in previous posts I'm a little disgruntled that Blizz isn't making good on a spread healing buff in our level 45 talent and our changes to the class were a radius increase and some minor glyph adjustments.

    Just because a few Shamans go against the whiny forum hivemind (that is literally every forum from League, to WoW, to Smash Brothers, to any other game that can be competitive) doesn't mean the class doesn't need adjustments. Even Sensations has issued complaints on the PTR. I'm fine for buffs but I and many other Shamans are making the spec work and don't want the class reworked. Stop making this into a personal attack of us against them. The reason Blizzard probably ignores these topics is because anytime a Shaman dares says they are making the class work in their experience people call them, their raiders, and their logs !@#$.

    07/02/2013 07:18 AMPosted by Sensations
    Just did since the servers did a restart haha. This is my resto spec, it's what I use :p(I change to Echo a lot though). Have to re-gem a bit though since I'm going back to full time Restoration this is a mix of ele/resto gems lol.


    All dat spirit you stack... I really should try a low spirit build. How do you make Echo work? Low Spirit high crit build? It basically looks like you entirely reforged out of spirit. Would be interesting to try. Thanks!
    Edited by Elíka on 7/2/2013 7:31 AM PDT
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    90 Pandaren Priest
    14930
    The logs show a class who's mastery is severely gimped by progression, who's utility isn't shown well on meters, and who's heals are some of the most easily sniped unless stacked. I'm not saying we don't have our issues, but they're not as bad as people make them out to be. If just one person can make it work, so can others. Sitting here crying to Blizzard won't change anything, making yourself a better player will make your next raid week better.


    Shaman have been waiting for a fix since Cata, Sensations. The only way for them to get their feelings and experiences across is to state what is going on. Have you tested the T16 fights yet? Because I have - on a Shaman, even, for several of them. It's a freaking nightmare. I simply cannot imagine most guilds taking a Shaman outside of a token MTT, and even if they don't have a Shaman, they probably don't need one at this point with all the mana we've been given between trinkets, gear, and meta procs.
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    90 Pandaren Priest
    14930
    07/02/2013 07:25 AMPosted by Elíka
    The problem is, every time you have Shaman with no real experience in content of any difficulty coming on the forums claiming everything is fine, etc, all it does is gives the validates the developers in ignoring very real and significant concerns. That is the problem with the Shaman community - I have rarely to never seen Druids (prior to the 5.3/5.4 buffs), Priests (back at the start of this expansion when they were having issues) or Paladins (with their current 5.4 issues) posting about how they think everything is fine. It seems to be something unique to the Shaman community, and all it does is dilute the message to the developers and empowers them to leave the spec in the terrible state that it is today.


  • Guilds continue to bring Shaman's to world first, the most cutting edge of progression that none of us will see
  • People who are more progressed then myself show the class working
  • Tons of people are continuing to make the spec work from normal to early heroics to Lei Shen
  • Many Shamans are still brought for their contribution to their team. Maybe not stacked but still having at least 1 in 25s.
  • The class is clearly terrible.

    The class has flaws that were addressed in the first post of the first topic. Our mastery could use some tweaks. We could stand to be a little more mobile. Healing Rain is unfriendly in 10 mans. Running Mana Tide off our spirit wasn't probably the best idea because it further drove Shamans down the charts while others could gear for throughput.

    I and many others like the class, weaknesses and all. I've tweeted Blizzard and stood by for many of the buffs for the class and I still believe the spec has some issues. We don't need all of them but I've openly admitted in previous posts I'm a little disgruntled that Blizz isn't making good on a spread healing buff in our level 45 talent and our changes to the class were a radius increase and some minor glyph adjustments.

    Just because a few Shamans go against the whiny forum hivemind (that is literally every forum from League, to WoW, to Smash Brothers, to any other game that can be competitive) doesn't mean the class doesn't need adjustments. Even Sensations has issued complaints on the PTR. I'm fine for buffs but I and many other Shamans are making the spec work and don't want the class reworked. Stop making this into a personal attack of us against them. The reason Blizzard probably ignores these topics is because anytime a Shaman dares says they are making the class work in their experience people call them, their raiders, and their logs !@#$.


    Let me ask you this - do you feel that because you are having 0 issues with your group, that Shaman are "fine" and do not need to be fixed?

    If yes, why?

    If no, why do you have a problem with people raising their voices to Blizzard after waiting since 2011 for fixes? How much longer do Shaman have to wait until Blizzard stops pushing them into a niche when no one else has one?
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