Sad State of R. Shaman: Mechanics Oriented P2

90 Troll Shaman
18930

  • Guilds continue to bring Shaman's to world first, the most cutting edge of progression that none of us will see
  • People who are more progressed then myself show the class working
  • Tons of people are continuing to make the spec work from normal to early heroics to Lei Shen
  • Many Shamans are still brought for their contribution to their team. Maybe not stacked but still having at least 1 in 25s.
  • The class is clearly terrible.


    Last tier, yes, Shaman were brought to world first kills. However, the viability of the spec has been severely diminished since the start of 5.2
    1. MTT was more needed in 5.2 progression because people didn't have legendary meta gems (or 550 ilvl through cloaks and item upgrades). The legendary meta has the value of about 3 Mana Tides used on cooldown, so the value of Shaman at MTT bots is significantly diminished. MTT was the main reason they were brought to world first kills in ToT, but it is not going to be enough in 5.4 by any stretch of the imagination.
    2. HTT was one of the strongest and most flexible raid cooldowns pre-5.3. In 5.3, they buffed Tranquility, Revival and Divine Hymn by 240% in 25 man raids, but left HTT out based on the ridiculous semantics of it being a talent and not baseline. SLT was and is a mediocre raid cooldown. Shaman went from having one of the strongest raid cooldowns to having the weakest raid cooldown of any healer.
    3. Shaman throughput (post hotfix a couple of weeks into the tier) was low but acceptable in 5.2. It is now ~30% behind in 5.3. If SoO mechanics are any indication (far less stacking and more spread and movement than ToT), it will be even further behind in 5.4, especially with major buffs to most other classes.

    The reasons why Shaman were used on cutting edge progression in 5.3 (and they were across the board benched in top kills of the 2nd most difficult boss - Dark Animus) are no longer really relevant.
    Reply Quote
    100 Orc Shaman
    HC
    18945
    All dat spirit you stack... I really should try a low spirit build. How do you make Echo work? Low Spirit high crit build? It basically looks like you entirely reforged out of spirit. Would be interesting to try. Thanks!


    For the low spirit build to work it's mandatory you use the magma totem drop/recall during procs. This alone nets you anywhere from 100-200k mana per fight, also make sure you use TR glyph.

    As for Echo, I use it on a fight I can utilize Chain Heal on since for ST it's pretty weak. Usually ends up being Council, Meg, primordius, lei shen, sometimes I'll toy with it.

    I never use a high crit build, my two main stats are haste/mastery followed by crit. I personally still use mastery because of 2 healing in 10m the majority of fights, my mastery is always in play and there when I need it.

    4750 Spirit.

    *head asplodes*


    It's pretty neat, I had to go a bit higher for lei shen/ra-den but might go back down and just play better with my spell selection.

    Shaman have been waiting for a fix since Cata, Sensations. The only way for them to get their feelings and experiences across is to state what is going on. Have you tested the T16 fights yet? Because I have - on a Shaman, even, for several of them. It's a freaking nightmare. I simply cannot imagine most guilds taking a Shaman outside of a token MTT, and even if they don't have a Shaman, they probably don't need one at this point with all the mana we've been given between trinkets, gear, and meta procs.


    Like I said, fixes are needed but it's not truly as bad as people make it out to be. We are behind yes, but I'd rather see people making it work instead of relying on Blizzard soley.
    Reply Quote
    90 Troll Shaman
    18930

    The logs show a class who's mastery is severely gimped by progression, who's utility isn't shown well on meters, and who's heals are some of the most easily sniped unless stacked. I'm not saying we don't have our issues, but they're not as bad as people make them out to be. If just one person can make it work, so can others. Sitting here crying to Blizzard won't change anything, making yourself a better player will make your next raid week better.


    The utility doesn't show up well is a bit of a red herring. Multiple other classes (especially Priests and Paladins) have just as much if not more utility that doesn't show up in raw throughput. If you want to use the tax throughput for utility thing, you also need to take into account that we have the weakest raid cooldown of any healer by a ~50% margin, and that we are the only healer that lacks a tank cooldown. If our heals are "most easily sniped", that isn't an indication that the class is fine - it's an indication that we lack appropriate and effective mechanics to deliver healing when it is actually needed.

    I also think you have a rose colored view of "making it work". 2 healing 10 mans with a Resto Druid is the best possible situation for Shaman to look better than they actually are, and is not the reality for anyone in 25 mans and for 90% of 10 mans either. You don't actually see what most Resto Shaman have to deal with when you don't regularly heal with multiple absorb healers.
    Reply Quote
    100 Draenei Shaman
    13040
    Let me ask you this - do you feel that because you are having 0 issues with your group, that Shaman are "fine" and do not need to be fixed?

    If yes, why?

    If no, why do you have a problem with people raising their voices to Blizzard after waiting since 2011 for fixes? How much longer do Shaman have to wait until Blizzard stops pushing them into a niche when no one else has one?


    No. I believe I am doing well because I am more skilled then my playtime allows and am in a more casual friendly guild. I also believe we have core issues with movement, specifically Blizzard front loaded too much power into HR and when people need to move out of it this becomes a problem. This problem is magnified in 10s. It's why I made the switch to 25s this expansion. I believe Rain can be worked around and though that isn't a fault with the class at all I give credence to the claim that it's an extra burden the other healers really don't have.

    So yes the class has issues. My first paragraph lists the popular ones I hear. What I don't want is to become a mobile healer. I like cast times and I like being grounded. What I don't want is more smart heals or to let shamans care less about the range of our raiders. I quit healing entirely on my Paladin because I liked the niche and Dragon Soul looked to average out my kit. What I don't want is for Blizzard to listen to the loudest people to change the class into something it's not.

    TL:DR The class has issues that I'll be sad to go unaddressed. The mechanics aren't sad though and I don't want to see Shamans homogenized in with every other healer.
    Reply Quote
    90 Pandaren Shaman
    15390
    The class has issues that I'll be sad to go unaddressed. The mechanics aren't sad though and I don't want to see Shamans homogenized in with every other healer.


    Amen
    Reply Quote
    90 Pandaren Priest
    14930
    No. I believe I am doing well because I am more skilled then my playtime allows and am in a more casual friendly guild. I also believe we have core issues with movement, specifically Blizzard front loaded too much power into HR and when people need to move out of it this becomes a problem. This problem is magnified in 10s. It's why I made the switch to 25s this expansion. I believe Rain can be worked around and though that isn't a fault with the class at all I give credence to the claim that it's an extra burden the other healers really don't have.

    So yes the class has issues. My first paragraph lists the popular ones I hear. What I don't want is to become a mobile healer. I like cast times and I like being grounded. What I don't want is more smart heals or to let shamans care less about the range of our raiders. I quit healing entirely on my Paladin because I liked the niche and Dragon Soul looked to average out my kit. What I don't want is for Blizzard to listen to the loudest people to change the class into something it's not.

    TL:DR The class has issues that I'll be sad to go unaddressed. The mechanics aren't sad though and I don't want to see Shamans homogenized in with every other healer.


    So far there's 0 evidence of your "niche" out side of part of a phase in Malkorak, and many guilds still won't bring a Shaman because while Shaman lose when they are spread, not a single other healing class loses when they are stacked. Even if you buffed HR to the high heavens, it would be better to bring another class.

    Not having effective spread healing is killing your class. That is what most posters are taking about.
    Reply Quote
    90 Troll Shaman
    18930

    For the low spirit build to work it's mandatory you use the magma totem drop/recall during procs. This alone nets you anywhere from 100-200k mana per fight, also make sure you use TR glyph.


    Can't you only effectively do this during like 30% of the LMG procs, because you won't be able to use it when HST, HTT, MTT, Earth Ele or Fire Ele are up?
    Reply Quote
    100 Draenei Shaman
    13040
    07/02/2013 07:38 AMPosted by Sensations
    For the low spirit build to work it's mandatory you use the magma totem drop/recall during procs. This alone nets you anywhere from 100-200k mana per fight, also make sure you use TR glyph.


    So you drop Magma Totem when the LMG procs then pick it back up for the free mana. Man my head just exploded from how good that sounds. That's a great trick. Thanks
    Reply Quote
    90 Pandaren Priest
    14930
    07/02/2013 07:44 AMPosted by Harpoa
    The class has issues that I'll be sad to go unaddressed. The mechanics aren't sad though and I don't want to see Shamans homogenized in with every other healer.


    Amen


    Except that you don't really play your Shaman anymore, Harpoa, aka Taelus. You've swapped to your Paladin, yet you continue to say that Shaman shouldn't be changed or fixed to keep up because that would "homogenize" them. There a reason why you're no longer playing Shaman, since apparently they're awesome and fine and any changes will just homogenize them?
    Reply Quote
    90 Troll Shaman
    17270
    07/02/2013 07:25 AMPosted by Elíka
  • Guilds continue to bring Shaman's to world first, the most cutting edge of progression that none of us will see
  • People who are more progressed then myself show the class working
  • Tons of people are continuing to make the spec work from normal to early heroics to Lei Shen


  • In 5.2. All the progression was 5.2. Before the legendary meta. Before players had 540+ ilvl and H-Horridon's trinket 2/2. AKA when mana tide was relevant. When Druids/MWers/Holy didn't have their 25 man raid CD's buffed to do ~2-2.5x more than HTT.

    Before 5.4 changes that are happening to further buff druids. Before the new raid encounter designs (which I honestly haven't done / looked at much so I'm not commenting here).

    I'm considering my paladin as a main swap (-10 ilvls once I get the cape in 1-2 weeks), sadly I'm waiting on their counter buff to make up for EF no longer stacking mastery on the PTR's before I make a final decision there. Really I should power my monk up, but the legendary questline... such a barrier to main swapping. The meta/cloak are just too gamebreaking.
    Reply Quote
    90 Troll Shaman
    18930

    For the low spirit build to work it's mandatory you use the magma totem drop/recall during procs. This alone nets you anywhere from 100-200k mana per fight, also make sure you use TR glyph.


    Can't you only effectively do this during like 30% of the LMG procs, because you won't be able to use it when HST, HTT, MTT, Earth Ele or Fire Ele are up?


    Never mind - it would actually only be unusable during Fire Ele, because it lasts a minute and you can just recall it after the other totems expire. Interesting.
    Reply Quote
    90 Human Paladin
    15480
    There a reason why you're no longer playing Shaman, since apparently they're awesome and fine and any changes will just homogenize them?


    Yep, the reason is i no longer progression raid. Real life caught up to me and i can't spend 12-15 hours raiding a week. I play casual with friends that already had a resto and enhance/ele shaman in their ten man. 3 shaman would have been a bit much.
    Edited by Taelaus on 7/2/2013 7:53 AM PDT
    Reply Quote
    97 Pandaren Shaman
    10755
    So far there's 0 evidence of your "niche" out side of part of a phase in Malkorak, and many guilds still won't bring a Shaman because while Shaman lose when they are spread, not a single other healing class loses when they are stacked. Even if you buffed HR to the high heavens, it would be better to bring another class.

    Not having effective spread healing is killing your class. That is what most posters are taking about.


    This is exactly what most shaman have been complaining about. I get that the minority of you do not want to be homogenised and *want* to maintain this niche. You all find it fun to "raise your gameplay and make the most out of your limited toolkit". Well, let me tell you now, judging from the fights on the PTR, 3/4 of your toolkit is effective neutered, no matter how hard you try to "raise your standard of play". In effect, you are effectively penalising your raid by bringing a shaman healer in, especially in a 10m. Does this even sound remotely fair to you? Why should shaman be the one healer class that is at the mercy of raid mechanics anyway?
    Reply Quote
    100 Draenei Shaman
    13040
    07/02/2013 07:55 AMPosted by Fewì
    Well, let me tell you now, judging from the fights on the PTR, 3/4 of your toolkit is effective neutered, no matter how hard you try to "raise your standard of play". In effect, you are effectively penalising your raid by bringing a shaman healer in, especially in a 10m.


    Immerseus - Split into small groups but was able to CH with the glyph. Mastery helped bomb heals on to the targets I needed to heal up. Not that it was hard to do, but maybe it will help in heroics.

    General Nazgrim - Small room perfect to bounce chain heal on. In 25s it will be easy to hit lots with Healing Rain. With two melee and our tank I had an excuse to keep rain down all fight.

    Dark Shamans - We'll see if the strat works on live but we seperated the two of them and I healed a tank, myself, and two melee through the melee shaman. Worked just fine with a small close knit group Rain and Chain Heal. Would have been fine in the ranged stacked group too.

    Malkorok - Mastery helps heal low health targets shields. Sure, critical health targets will die to raid damage but what are ya gonna do. No healer is better at getting a raid up fast then a shaman when stacked, especially when GC said he wants to buff that on Twitter. It's critical to get shields and the raid up quick after a stack and Shamans shine here.

    Paragons - Buggy (lol) fight. Can't say anything

    Siegecraft/Protectors - Didn't do.
    Reply Quote
    90 Pandaren Priest
    14930
    07/02/2013 08:03 AMPosted by Elíka
    Immerseus - Split into small groups but was able to CH with the glyph. Mastery helped bomb heals on to the targets I needed to heal up. Not that it was hard to do, but maybe it will help in heroics.


    Cool. How many melee did you have to heal? Because ours couldn't stand anywhere near each other, and neither could the ranged because puddles. Also, how did that work out for you when everyone split up to take out the oozes? Were you able to chain heal those people who ere 40yds+ apart?

    General Nazgrim - Small room perfect to bounce chain heal on. In 25s it will be easy to hit lots with Healing Rain. With two melee and our tank I had an excuse to keep rain down all fight.


    1) when did you have time to stand still and channel Chain Heal without being hit by something and/or standing in something?

    2) Healing Rain will work great until half the room is completely unusable and it's wasted.

    Dark Shamans - We'll see if the strat works on live but we seperated the two of them and I healed a tank, myself, and two melee through the melee shaman. Worked just fine with a small close knit group Rain and Chain Heal. Would have been fine in the ranged stacked group too.


    How'd you like the acid line? Oh, and the fire/earth line? And the void zones? We tried splitting them apart and stacking them up. Neither strat was conducive to anyone staying in one place very long. We would probably sit most of our Melee on this fight as they get rocked constantly.

    Malkorok - Mastery helps heal low health targets shields. Sure, critical health targets will die to raid damage but what are ya gonna do. No healer is better at getting a raid up fast then a shaman when stacked, especially when GC said he wants to buff that on Twitter. It's critical to get shields and the raid up quick after a stack and Shamans shine here.


    Well, I guess you can save HTT until you stack, but the truth of the matter is that you're moving too often and too spread out to be of much use with AoE healing in the first phase, especially given that Melee only take damage when they run out to soak puddles. The fact that you're great at healing stacked targets isn't going to help you when every other class is great at spread AND at least competent at stacked targets. Plus, Divine Hymn and Tranq are much stronger than HTT. SLT might be useful, but it actually killed people during testing.

    Paragons - Buggy (lol) fight. Can't say anything


    Constant movement. Constant spread. Stacking equals death.

    Siegecraft/Protectors - Didn't do.


    Constant movement. Constant spread. Stacking equals death.
    Edited by Tiriel on 7/2/2013 8:13 AM PDT
    Reply Quote
    100 Draenei Shaman
    13040
    stuff


    And this is why you never seen dissenting opinions in these topics.

    'Hey guys these are the things that worked for me! I'm a little out of my element since I'm used to 25s but we got some solid attempts in.'

    'You're ideas suck, you suck, and so do Shamans.'

    'Oh ok.'

    These topics are giant circle jerks. Instead of seeing anything constructive on how to work with our mechanics, how other healers are working with it, or even any strategy discussion a Shaman in trouble either goes to the Shaman forums were every class forum is convinced they are trash or the healing forums and sees 5 topics complaining about Shamans. And anyone with tips or tricks to get the spec working clearly is wrong.

    I healed spread targets on Immersius with Ascendence and Healing Tide. The same way I heal any serious spreading or movement. The bosses hitbox was bugged. Bouncing chain heal when Melee isn't two feet apart isn't going to be an issue and it worked fine among the range. With careful timing and consideration I was able to get all my casts off on Nazgrim. His rage mechanic was bugged out and there is clearly a trick to controlling his rage that I look forward to discover on live with timers and more information available. That way there won't be 3 Ravagers up.
    Reply Quote
    90 Pandaren Priest
    14930
    07/02/2013 08:25 AMPosted by Elíka
    stuff


    And this is why you never seen dissenting opinions in these topics.

    'Hey guys these are the things that worked for me! I'm a little out of my element since I'm used to 25s but we got some solid attempts in.'

    'You're ideas suck, you suck, and so do Shamans.'

    'Oh ok.'


    *looks her posts*

    Nope, didn't say that. But it's good that you tried! :)

    These topics are giant circle jerks. Instead of seeing anything constructive on how to work with our mechanics, how other healers are working with it, or even any strategy discussion a Shaman in trouble either goes to the Shaman forums were every class forum is convinced they are trash or the healing forums and sees 5 topics complaining about Shamans. And anyone with tips or tricks to get the spec working clearly is wrong.


    If you don't want people disagreeing with you, don't post to the forums.

    I healed spread targets on Immersius with Ascendence and Healing Tide. The same way I heal any serious spreading or movement. The bosses hitbox was bugged. Bouncing chain heal when Melee isn't two feet apart isn't going to be an issue and it worked fine among the range. With careful timing and consideration I was able to get all my casts off on Nazgrim. His rage mechanic was bugged out and there is clearly a trick to controlling his rage that I look forward to discover on live with timers and more information available. That way there won't be 3 Ravagers up.


    The hitbox wasn't the problem (with regards to spread), the pools were. It's possible that making the hitbox larger will help alleviate that, but you're still going to have to have some fairly wide spread because you need spots to put the pools and they come out very quickly (I can only imagine how fast on heroic). The small hitbox actually forced ranged closer than they otherwise would have been.

    We didn't note a bug with Nazgrim. You can control his Rage and that was deliberate. Taking the 3 Ravagers is preferable to the other options you have, at least in my experience.

    That's still 2 fights out of 7 so far.
    Edited by Tiriel on 7/2/2013 8:31 AM PDT
    Reply Quote
    100 Orc Shaman
    20250
    For the low spirit build to work it's mandatory you use the magma totem drop/recall during procs. This alone nets you anywhere from 100-200k mana per fight, also make sure you use TR glyph.


    Well now you've done it, incoming hotfix. Thanks, Sensations.
    Reply Quote
    100 Orc Shaman
    HC
    18945
    07/02/2013 09:17 AMPosted by Rags
    For the low spirit build to work it's mandatory you use the magma totem drop/recall during procs. This alone nets you anywhere from 100-200k mana per fight, also make sure you use TR glyph.


    Well now you've done it, incoming hotfix. Thanks, Sensations.


    You act like the developers read shaman threads, pfft.
    Edited by Sensations on 7/2/2013 9:19 AM PDT
    Reply Quote

    Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

    Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

    Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

    Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

    Forums Code of Conduct

    Report Post # written by

    Reason
    Explain (256 characters max)

    Reported!

    [Close]