Regarding Prot Paladin Changes for 5.4

100 Tauren Paladin
9965
TL;DR : I quit if haste pally is hurt bad, I know noone cares, but I enjoy this game alot, but don't enjoy being replaced because my class/build took nerf bat to face and i couldnt replace gear in time to be valid. Prot pallys now feel unique to me, only class Im truly good at, if they know longer feel fun to me then I'll no longer wanna play.

I've never played Prot paladin and enjoyed as much as I have since I have started to tank again during 5.2/5.3 I feel that us stacking haste, doing a decent amount of healing, and more depending on your gear, the amount of haste you get up to ect. The amount of damage you can do dependent on this, the unique feel to it, the low down time that makes it feel for fluent and full and not boring at all. I remember tanking during ICC, and how the only reason I did not reroll, Is at the time it was the only class and spec I really knew how to play, what I was truly good at and still am. Back then I didn't really enjoy it thou, but now I do. But if I end up not enjoying the one thing I am really great at in WoW, Prot paladin tanking the Im quitting. This happened to me with mages at the start of MoP, leveled one to 90, went fire, spent 80,000 gold gearing it out to raid with my guild, fire gets nerfed for that patch because it then required insane amounts of gear I'd never obtain and I did not enjoy other mage specs.

So I'll be quite honest if these changes to paladins glyph of battle healer and grand crusader, greatly impact the haste build for paladins I'll once again be leaving the came, if I can not get the gear appropriate in time for next patch. When fire mages were still greatly valid in 5.1 I leveled a mage to 90, and spent 80k gearing it out to raid with my guild just for it to get nerfed to the point it was no longer valid for the gear of that patch because fire is the only mage spec I enjoy I quit the game. why would they damage something that almost every single paladin builds into? If this reaally harms the build, there is going to be alot of people being replaced from their raid teams ect.

Now they are possibly doing the same? so if this really hurts haste build, and i can't get regeared in time for 5.4 I quit. I really hate quitting this game, I enjoy raiding, enjoy hanging with guild member ect, hell I even now enjoy actually doing daily quest and farming for rep some what. But what I don't enjoy, is getting the nerf bat and no longer being valid, so noone no longer takes me to raids cause Im taking a ton of damage/dont do enough damage/ect ect.

How do you guys feel about this? are some of you with me on this? especially if you can not get the gear required to be wanted next patch if this really hurts Haste Prot
Edited by Eranisa on 7/9/2013 1:11 AM PDT
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100 Orc Death Knight
17115
The only thing that's currently bad is if the SoI mana return being removed is true. If that's the case high haste builds will OOM protection paladins.

The rest of them while effecting haste, still shouldn't deter you from going haste. It should still be the best stat.
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100 Tauren Paladin
9965
If we are constantly oom due to this, which god any tank build for pally will be with this as the mana cost on some things are incredibly high, we wouldn't be able do anything, but just sit there with our thumbs up our butts till we get then 3-4k mana to do it.

The Grand Crusader, Upping the chance on it to proc from parry/dodge makes the removal of the CS/HOR from it kinda void, but still there.
The Glyph change is pretty screwed up if you ask me, it helped top my raid off a bit when we really needed it at times of progression ect.
Removal of mana regen well... Hello seal of wisdom? or does prot even have that.. Because with 30% haste Imma be oom quite a bit.
Edited by Eranisa on 7/9/2013 1:24 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
9965
TBH it would have been better for them to have waited till next expansion to start hurting the build at all, because now almost every single prot paladin I know is stacking pure haste, so it is going to harm ALOT of people
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90 Orc Warrior
9215
If these changes are entirely accurate and go through then haste will be gutted, yes. My guess is at best the theorycrafters would work out a breakpoint for haste that would keep you from going OOM and after hitting that you'd have to go for the far more boring 'proper' tank stats. With any luck Blizzard intends to give prot something similar to ret's mana regen passive and this nerf is only meant to affect Holy (though I guess not so lucky for Holy).

The Grand Crusader change on its own likely just means that you'll no longer completely hate actual tanking gear since Blizzard apparently refuses to let tank stats die despite doing everything to encourage it up to this point. You would likely still want to prioritize haste gear just not quite as heavily.
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100 Orc Death Knight
17115
You'll likely see less procs than you did before with the Grand Crusader change, however it's not going to be a massive difference. Most protection paladins will see a decent amount of parry anyway because a lot run strength proc trinkets which give a considerable amount of avoidance when they actually proc.

The glyph change, at least how I interpret it gives you a choice. You either keep the heal of SoI to yourself, or you glyph battle healer and push that healing on the raid. In the grand scheme of things this doesn't really devalue haste, you are just going to have to choose whats more important. Your survival, or helping the raid out. It actually makes it a fairly interesting choice now where before EVERY protection paladin ran with battle healer. Haste is still going to be strong and it will still scale SoI or battle healer, whichever you choose.

If you look at actual breakdowns battle healer is largely hit or miss anyways. The majority of protection paladin healing typically comes from sacred shield and SoI. Battle healer is still a considerable amount of healing, but a lot of the time people are out of range or it's over heal. On a fight with heavy aura damage it is quite good though.

It's not like protection is losing a lot of utility. You can still get battle healer, it's just going to be a personal loss of a healing now through SoI. It's not game breaking healing however and it will just make your healers have to work a little bit harder on SOME bosses. You still have devotion aura, sacrifice, hand of protection and great burst AoE raid healing in a high vengeance lights hammer/prism (whatever).

As I said the only real problem with the changes is the SoI mana change. I doubt it will be going live because it would be causing a lot of problems, unless there are more changes in the pipeline to make it so mana isn't an issue for protection paladins unless they are doing something they shouldn't be doing (i.e spamming FoL).

It shouldn't change your build at all. Assuming the SoI mana doesn't go through (I can't see it going through) you're still going to be going heavy haste and the play style will still be intact. On average your HoPo generation might be slightly lower due to the grand crusader change and you now have to pick between self healing and raid healing (most will take self healing on the majority of the encounters).
Edited by Gròmmash on 7/9/2013 1:36 AM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
9215
If the SoI mana change goes through it's to deliberately gut haste tanking. I really hope Blizzard isn't going to do that because while it is a bit overpowered it's also really fun. The current Grand Crusader change would help lower prot's damage as well as up the value of actual tanking stats, which is a good idea I think.
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90 Human Paladin
7295
07/09/2013 01:35 AMPosted by Gròmmash
It actually makes it a fairly interesting choice now where before EVERY protection paladin ran with battle healer.


And now no Protection Paladins will. There is no choice really, SoI is really just part of our mitigation. 70% of the healing it did was on us, Battle Insight (the raid heal) was barely 30% according to my logs.

Also, Grand Crusader change is pretty WTF ? Why do they insist on trying to shoehorn us into Avoidance when we all find it boring and ineffectice ? Why oh why.

They need to stop that.
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90 Human Paladin
12545
It's interesting how it goes completely against their design points they stated in Cataclysm.

We want tanking to feel more dynamic, similar to how a Death Knight gets punished for being bad at managing his attacks, we want the other tanks to have similar systems. Taking a more active role in your damage intake.

It is kind of OP that I can tank in my Ret gear but hey, other tank classes can mix and match their DPS and Tanking gear, why should a paladin be any different?
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90 Pandaren Warrior
16315
Prot Paladins and Brewmaster Monks are completely overpowered, So if you're quitting because of class balancing, you shouldn't be playing the game.

Try being a Prot Warrior, Blood DK or Guardian.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
13760


Try being a Blood DK


Heh.. ok. Didn't a Blood DK recently solo Sha of Fear? A raid boss that is from this expansion? Wanna elaborate on how that's not OP?
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90 Human Priest
10625
Im extremely shocked about the mana change. Thats going to cause us to OOM even with ZERO haste if we are using all of the skills (especially because of Rebukes insane mana cost).

Thats a ridiculous change. We are going to have to auto attack for seconds at a time with no access to important spells like taunt even if we arent haste tanks. What in the heck are they thinking with that. Its going to be a catastrophe.

I don't care about them nerfing haste tanking. I rolled a tank to hopefully gear for avoidance, not wear dps gear, but dont gut the resource so I cant even taunt and stuff when I need too.... thats absolutely preposterous.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
13760
Im extremely shocked about the mana change. Thats going to cause us to OOM even with ZERO haste if we are using all of the skills (especially because of Rebukes insane mana cost).

Thats a ridiculous change. We are going to have to auto attack for seconds at a time with no access to important spells like taunt even if we arent haste tanks. What in the heck are they thinking with that. Its going to be a catastrophe.

I don't care about them nerfing haste tanking. I rolled a tank to hopefully gear for avoidance, not wear dps gear, but dont gut the resource so I cant even taunt and stuff when I need too.... thats absolutely preposterous.


You ever do a Transmog run of Ulduar 25? Tanking for Paladins will become tanking Vezexx at level 90 while trying to do the achievement for him: OOM 15 seconds in and lolgg no mana rest of fight.
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90 Human Paladin
9960
The SOI change scares me. Im about ready to level this alt, but what the heck at gutting mana regen?

Ive been trying to test on live by turning off that seal, then doing a rotation on a dummy using Rebuke taunt and everything else. The mana drops fast to about 50% but I seem to struggle to bring it below that point.

I have zero haste rating on this character atm. As long as the rotation can be maintained, and I don't have to worry about being OOM and not being able to taunt and interrupt, I don't care.....

Maybe they should just remove the mana costs on Rebuke, SOTR and Reckoning period. I shouldn't EVER have to worry about mana as a tank on those skills. They are far to important to the tanking process.

You ever do a Transmog run of Ulduar 25? Tanking for Paladins will become tanking Vezexx at level 90 while trying to do the achievement for him: OOM 15 seconds in and lolgg no mana rest of fight.


Yeah, see thats what Im afraid of, thats ridiculous. They cannot let that go live. Im not a big fan of the gearing for haste thing personally, so I dont really care if stacking tons of haste will OOM me, so long as I can do my job without OOMing with little to no haste.
Edited by Esonar on 7/9/2013 1:34 PM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
9215
07/09/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Erazerz
Try being a Prot Warrior, Blood DK or Guardian.
Still not a fan of this change. The correct solution IMO - which Blizzard has been working toward at least - is to buff the three weaker tanks and nerf the other two. This feels like less of a nerf and more of a gutting of the spec if it goes through as is. It's not fun having to gear for dodge and parry, it's far more fun to gear for crit or haste. The leather tanks already gear for DPS stats, it's probably time all the tanks did. Pally scaling with haste is absolutely too good, but the solution isn't to make Haste completely worthless for them.
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100 Human Paladin
OOB
13745
Seal of Insight Mana Regen - This needs to be reverted or other changes made to compensate. With no haste our mana regen is still negative. It will take a while to OOM but it will still happen. We need to be able to run our base rotation for at least 12 minutes without OOMing for the long fights. Furthermore, if we use Reckoning or Rebuke (Our taunt and interrupt) we will run out of mana sooner. If we throw in a couple Cleanses we'll be screwed even more. Paladin Utility due to things like Cleanse and Hands should be viable for us to use. Hasted builds which are the current gearing for Prot Paladins will become non sustainable due to mana consumption. Even if we had zero haste we'd still OOM eventually, and during Heroism/Bloodlust we're going to OOM really fast (haste geared or not).

Battle Healer - Firstoff, its not OP like some of the crybabies are screaming. In anything but the most server circumstances Battle Healer does less healing than Bloodworms or Ox Statue. An extreme situation would be: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/wjsn1x818m069qwe/sum/healingDone/?s=2543&e=3025. This is probably one of the most extreme possible cases. I did 1.34M DPS. Battle Healer: 36.7M healing, Bloodworms: 27.3M healing. Bloodworms will also always put out that much healing regardless of vengeance since its based on the DK's health. Here is a more normal situation: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/2pigf2oysk447w4c/sum/healingDone/?s=2770&e=3461. Battle Healer: 3.76M healing, Bloodworms: 4.20M healing, Ox Statue: 5.56M healing. Bloodworms beat Battle Healer even though Bloodworms did more effective healing with 95% overheal than Battle Healer did with only 66% overheal. Ox Statue had 33% overheal. The difference is that Battle Healer scales up with vengeance (DPS), but it takes some pretty extreme DPS to overcome the healing from Blood Worms/Ox Statue which are baseline for those specs. The Ox Statue has its own limiter in place in that the stronger the shields will be the more DPS the Monk needs to put out to get them to proc. So if Monks and DKs can bring that much raid healing, why is Battle Healer considered OP? Is it because its a Glyph? I don't know what Druids bring to the table but Warriors have Rallying Cry and their Banners, which are far more potent in some cases. So much so I've tried to keep 3+ Warriors in my raids.

As for the new version of the Glyph. It has the potential to do far more raid healing than the current Battle Healer. SoI healing is mostly overheal on the tank and if fully effective will do more than Battle Healer could.

As for interesting choice. Its not a choice. Its kinda like how Blizzard insists LFR and Dailies are optional, when they aren't. its like saying here you can have Jessica Alba, or Rosie O'donnell.

This is how Prot Paladin seals have been this xpac. No choices, Blizzard dictates which you will use. Seal of Truth was nerfed to do 80% less damage for Prot, or nearly no damage. When we had the choice, most Paladins chose Seal of Truth (even though the haste paradigm would have eventually caused issues with that). At 20% damage, its not a choice anymore. The damage gained is nowhere near the surviviability loss, which isn't that huge. If this version of Battle Healer goes in, there will once again be no choice. As a smart heal on the raid, it has far more value that the massive overhealing on myself. Yes, there is a choice, but its not a good one. The majority of my self healing comes from Sacred Shield, not SoI. Its not trivial. Its about a 40% loss in my self healing, if I get none of it. 40k to 50k smart heals on the raid every ~2 seconds or so is worth more than just on me. Some of it will come to me also unless its forcibly made not to choose me. If there is no raid damage, it will come to me anyways and to my cotank when i'm offtanking. To me its a no brainer, hence not a choice again. Also, please make it so it is smart enough not to heal pets, especially temp pets.

Grand Crusader - This change is rather miniscule and won't have much impact. However, it should be a bit higher. It will be a slight loss in damage/HoPo when actively tanking and a 100% loss when not. It should be the same or stronger when tanking to compensate for the total loss when not actively tanking.

Paladin Tank DPS - Why do people think haste tanking is OP? Our DPS isn't that insane. Look at the top parses for the mostly single target fights (where you can't skew it with AoE DPS). The top parses for the tank classes don't have Paladins at the top. One would think with 35-40% haste we should be at least 20-30% higher than other tanks if its so good....
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100 Human Paladin
13860
Here is a question, if the nerf to the mana on SOI goes through, what if they brought back spiritual Attunement ? As a passive spell say 20-30% of the mana on the back of a healing spell, like they did in wrath, would that still maximize haste and make it still as viable?
Cause my other second worry if it does go through and haste is not as good, makes me worried about aggro, when i went mastery had the hardest time getting back from the other tank since it took 5 sec for vengeance to start up again. Or from the opening pull if i didnt pop everything to keep in front till vengeance took it was a little bit of a struggle so we had the other tank start till i went with haste, Now with out haste im feared were doomed to be a OFF TANK role from now on. Hope im wrong.
And i agree with the OP i spent 4k reforging and re-gearing only took me a couple of days thank god but still spend a great of deal switching to haste, even took the haste 600 cloak, now if i have to switch again, really will tick me off if i have to spend another 4k switching to something else, only bright side was i felt blizz might do something like this so i kept all of my tanking gear with parry dodge stats as well, just hoped i would never need it but looks like i will thanks for the two extreme bills blizz really appreciate that.
Edited by Tarlon on 7/9/2013 2:04 PM PDT
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90 Undead Warlock
16040
TBH it would have been better for them to have waited till next expansion to start hurting the build at all, because now almost every single prot paladin I know is stacking pure haste, so it is going to harm ALOT of people


What's funny is just the other day on MMO there was a question about how Blizz felt about haste being the best stat for prot pallies. Their answer was they were perfectly fine with the build. Funny how just a couple days later they kick the haste build in the balls.
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90 Dwarf Rogue
4570
You guys are missing the most important aspect of this change...it's a huge nerf to PvP prot paladins!!!!!!!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13820
What's funny is just the other day on MMO there was a question about how Blizz felt about haste being the best stat for prot pallies. Their answer was they were perfectly fine with the build. Funny how just a couple days later they kick the haste build in the balls.


Yeah they've said that multiple times. They claimed they actually liked it. But they already tried to nerf our GC proc to be by avoidance alone and the community went pretty crazy, so they changed it to what it currently is, yet they're trying to do it again. Not only is the SoI nerf a kick in the balls, but with GC only being from avoidance, that means if the other tank taunts off of us due to stacks or something in a fight, we get 0 procs of GC since we're not actively avoiding anything. All this is going to do is, if there are any adds on a fight, prot paladins are going to want the dps to avoid killing them if possible, that way we can get GC procs out the !@# to increase our damage on the boss. Blizzard just needs to Change SoI to return no mana to holy only since I feel that's the only reason they're nerfing it, and leave the change to the battle healer glyph, but not touch GC.
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