Regarding Prot Paladin Changes for 5.4

90 Tauren Paladin
9730
Does the passive that gives 6% mana every 2 sec not enough?

Current math puts Prot, with a high amount of haste, running completely out of mana with 6% mana per 2 seconds at the 30 seconds mark.
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90 Human Paladin
14845
Does the passive that gives 6% mana every 2 sec not enough?


Apparently not to Haste builds. I dunno, I've never had an issue. *shrug*
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90 Human Hunter
13545
07/09/2013 07:50 PMPosted by Keten
Does the passive that gives 6% mana every 2 sec not enough?

Current math puts Prot, with a high amount of haste, running completely out of mana with 6% mana per 2 seconds at the 30 seconds mark.


Thanks, every post I see about the issue they never mention that passive, wasn't sure if it was forgotten about. Maybe they'll see and revert it or make a work around for it. They do go overboard on they're nerfing sometimes, but experimentation.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
The increase to 10% per 2 seconds should be more than enough. That's probably more than what Prot has now (since Insight's 4% isn't guaranteed to happen every 2 seconds), and Prot doesn't spend nearly that much.
Edited by Keten on 7/9/2013 8:05 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12185
Apparently not to Haste builds. I dunno, I've never had an issue. *shrug*


They're talking about after the PTR nerf genius. No prot paladins have mana issues atm.
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90 Human Paladin
14845
In regards to the change, I think people are overdramatizing the impact it will have. From what I've read on the PTR notes, they don't want tankadins turning into Blood DKs with holy powers. Pally tanks aren't meant to be able to run out of mana so quickly - even since Wrath and how the old Divine Plea worked for us would indicate that.

From the sound of things, haste turned into a much bigger deal for pally tanks than Blizz intended, with people bending over backwards to get more and more Haste and becoming some kind of ubermensch that can solo-tank bosses that they were never meant to. People are screaming that they're crippling Haste build and making them unviable, but if they wanted to do that they could just remove Sanctity of Battle altogether from prot spec. In my opinion, some people got a taste of being totally OP and got hooked, but now the nerf's kicking in and they're fighting to keep their fix. I can't blame them or anything - they made it work and work well through legitimate means - but I feel that the ones wailing and gnashing their teeth are lacking in perspective.

Blizz has said they like active mitigation as a viable tanking method, but this idea didn't work out (or worked too well, rather), so they're going to try and find something that works without giving prot pallies an effective godmoding option. Seems reasonable to me. If the OP or anyone else is really considering quitting over this, there's the door. Or you could try a different class - you'd probably enjoy the basic theory behind blood DK tanking. Me and my 0 haste rating, on the other hand, will continue to enjoy what I've been doing thus far, and if the day comes where it just doesn't work anymore, I'll find an alternate strategy. I always have.
Edited by Benemus on 7/9/2013 8:17 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
14845
07/09/2013 07:50 PMPosted by Keten
Does the passive that gives 6% mana every 2 sec not enough?

Current math puts Prot, with a high amount of haste, running completely out of mana with 6% mana per 2 seconds at the 30 seconds mark.


07/09/2013 08:13 PMPosted by Véé
Apparently not to Haste builds. I dunno, I've never had an issue. *shrug*


They're talking about after the PTR nerf genius. No prot paladins have mana issues atm.


...huh? I know it's not an issue at the moment...I even said as much.
Edited by Benemus on 7/9/2013 8:19 PM PDT
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90 Human Hunter
13545
It's all over now, they're going to increase your passive regen to 10% every 2 secs like Keten just said. Lore put up a blue post earlier.
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90 Human Paladin
OOB
13855


Paladin Tank DPS - Why do people think haste tanking is OP? Our DPS isn't that insane. Look at the top parses for the mostly single target fights (where you can't skew it with AoE DPS). The top parses for the tank classes don't have Paladins at the top. One would think with 35-40% haste we should be at least 20-30% higher than other tanks if its so good....

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/100/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000011111000000

You are a down syndrome baby if you think prot pallies aren't OP along with Monks.


Perhaps you should learn to read and not use stupid metrics to rate things. Check World of Logs DPS rankings for each tank spec type on 25H fights. Paladins are not the top on most of the fights. Especially the mostly single target fights where you can't cheese parse. Yes, I parsed insane on Tortos 25H, but I solo tanked the Bats when they are mostly kited. An average Paladin tank does more DPS than average other tanks, but what matters is the optimal players. Most Paladin tanks gear for Haste and hard cap. Many warrior/dk tanks don't. The ones that do can put out equal numbers. Its not the haste differential.

You don't seem to have had problems getting to your progression level. If we're so OP and you're so weak guess the other tank carried you......
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90 Human Paladin
7295
07/09/2013 08:18 PMPosted by Benemus

Current math puts Prot, with a high amount of haste, running completely out of mana with 6% mana per 2 seconds at the 30 seconds mark.


07/09/2013 08:13 PMPosted by Véé


They're talking about after the PTR nerf genius. No prot paladins have mana issues atm.


...huh? I know it's not an issue at the moment...I even said as much.


I think we already established in another thread tough that you have both gearing and rotational issues to solve. Even with 0 hastes, Paladins tried it using SoT/SoR on target dummies and were running out of mana doing a proper rotation with some extras, without using things like Rebuke or other raid utility.

It was a very real issue at 6%.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
07/09/2013 08:15 PMPosted by Benemus
From the sound of things, haste turned into a much bigger deal for pally tanks than Blizz intended, with people bending over backwards to get more and more Haste and becoming some kind of ubermensch that can solo-tank bosses that they were never meant to.

Haste doesn't really have much to do with that, though. It's a combination of ShoR itself being a very powerful defensive ability (compared to Shield Block, Blood Shield, and Savage Defense) and paladins' ability to remove debuffs from themselves. Haste does help, but I don't think removing haste would make the bosses that are currently solo-tankable by Prot paladins unsolo-tankable.

The main thing they really need to do to fix Prot solo tanking is to make boss debuffs unaffected by immunities. They've started doing that, but thare are still things like Triple Puncture and Infected Wounds that shouldn't be removable but are.
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90 Human Paladin
14845
Haste doesn't really have much to do with that, though. It's a combination of ShoR itself being a very powerful defensive ability (compared to Shield Block, Blood Shield, and Savage Defense) and paladins' ability to remove debuffs from themselves. Haste does help, but I don't think removing haste would make the bosses that are currently solo-tankable by Prot paladins unsolo-tankable.

The main thing they really need to do to fix Prot solo tanking is to make boss debuffs unaffected by immunities. They've started doing that, but thare are still things like Triple Puncture and Infected Wounds that shouldn't be removable but are.


Well, I'm definitely down with that idea. I thought the whole idea behind grouping with other people was teamwork, so anything that removes the solo-tank hero attitude is fine by me. :)

Right now, I'm content to see what 5.4 brings. I actually enjoy learning how to adapt to changes in my class, and being an old fuddy-duddy I've missed Holy Shield, so even if it's not the same as before, it'll be nice having it back.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
I actually enjoy learning how to adapt to changes in my class, and being an old fuddy-duddy I've missed Holy Shield, so even if it's not the same as before, it'll be nice having it back.

They actually reverted the Sacred Shield/Holy Shield change. It's back to the same as it is on live. :P
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90 Human Paladin
14845
07/10/2013 10:27 AMPosted by Keten
I actually enjoy learning how to adapt to changes in my class, and being an old fuddy-duddy I've missed Holy Shield, so even if it's not the same as before, it'll be nice having it back.

They actually reverted the Sacred Shield/Holy Shield change. It's back to the same as it is on live. :P


GAAAAAH! *sobs* I'm so behind the times!!

Ah well. I like Sacred Shield too, so hooray for that!
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90 Human Paladin
17125
-nevermind-
Edited by Tavine on 7/10/2013 11:47 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
8015
The SoI nerf is ridiculous on multiple levels. Right now there are paladins on the PTR that are running OOM after 1 min 40 seconds going through a solid rotation including using abilities like our lvl 90 talents, cleanse etc.


This has been addressed, they're thinking of bumping up our regen to 10%

Unless I am mistaken, this is just going to make Paladins even more broke then they already are.


We aren't broken, we're haven't been broken and we aren't going to get broken.

So we go from overhealing ourselves to overhealing the raid. Nice logic.


How exactly is healing the most hurt raid member going to be a ton of overheal?

After years of making changes like these (especially mid expansion) make me question why I bother to continue playing a game that the developers appear to have lost focus on and no longer have any idea how to correct the years of mistakes they have made.


No one is forcing you. Line for martyrdom is ---> that way.

There are some glaring problems with Paladins in general as well as the Protection spec. None of the changes listed here help fix the original problems. Only create new ones. We will see what goes live but my tolerance for this kind of nonsense is reaching a peak.


Nice generalisations there, I'm unsure if I'd bother with what you consider a glaring problem given the quality and depth of this post.

Not only that but they are buffing Brewmasters... So far there has been nothing I have seen to bring Prot Warriors and DKs up to par with the other tanking classes.


This is not a comparison game of which class is better or has more buffs or nerfs. Try focusing on your own class problems and solutions as well as bringing something meaningful to the discussion like what specifically you are having problems with in the class. What do you disagree with in terms of the direction. Knee-jerk reactive rants do nothing other than paint you as an uninformed troll worthy of no consideration whatsoever.
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90 Human Paladin
17125
This is why I edited my post out. I knew that someone was going to twist and distort every word.

-Lore came out and said they were thinking about buffing GBtL. They made the change without looking at how it affects Prot.

-We are broken. Stop trying to deny it.

-I was pointing out that making major changes mid expansion are never a good thing. Try removing your head from your backside and stop looking to provoke others.

-I could list the problems with Protection Paladins buy why bother when everyone that doesn't have their head in the sand knows already. No generalizations are made genius.

-Prot warriors and DKs are the worst tanks right now without a doubt. Buffing Monks, Paladins or issuing nerfs is not the way to go. These changes aren't fixing any existing problems.

Go away.
Edited by Tavine on 7/10/2013 12:35 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
7295
-We are broken. Stop trying to deny it.


We're fine. A lot of the "broken" you refer to are not Paladin mechanics, they are encounter/general mechanics that weren't designed properly. IE, Vengeance and tank swap debuffs.
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90 Human Paladin
10270
the 4 piece set tier in 5.4 for prot doesn't look too appealing either, but I main Ret so :o
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