The stance system was made wrong

90 Night Elf Monk
0
I think Blizzard made a mistake when they made the three stances for monks. These things should not be like a Death Knight's presence system.

An actual martial artist will change their stance as it suits them in combat. We don't. A Brewmaster is in Ox stance 100% of the time, for example. And if you're not in your spec's stance, you lose out on special abilities related to it.

This really sucks because there are so many potential stances that could be added into the game. Like a stance based around Chi'ji, or one based around snow leopards, monkeys(Hozen?), etc.

They should just be kind of like gameplay modifiers that work for all specs in different ways. Maybe Chi'ji's stance, for example, could focus more on mobility, speed, avoiding damage, etc. Like making your Roll go a bit farther, or making you move passively faster.

Or maybe Xuen's stance could be based more around bleed attacks.

Just basically different ways to do the same thing.
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90 Draenei Monk
11285
Save the stance dancing for Warriors and DKs, I want no part in it.
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90 Undead Monk
OTF
7835
Save the stance dancing for Warriors and DKs, I want no part in it.


Pretty much this.

It's enough of a hassle getting up close and personal to CC and improve healing, i don't want to worry about having to change stances too. I think our system works fine.
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90 Undead Monk
4260
I don't want stance dancing, but having Ox stance for WindWalkers and removing the stance requirements on non-healing spells would be nice.
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90 Gnome Monk
13665
If we were allowed to switch in and out of stances at will that would pretty much render our spec system redundant. That and our stances are geared towards specific roles available in the game. you didn't really think this out at all did you?
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90 Gnome Monk
7335
While I don't mind the idea of WW monk switching to Ox stance to stagger off some of the damage from a major hit, I like how our stances work.

Serpent stance would offer nothing for a brewmaster or ww because we don't have any healing spells for it. We don't wear int gear to get our spell power up, and I feel like it would affect eminence too much if say a WW popped a RoRo'd tiger eye brew, and switched to Serpent stance, and just started healing the crap out of everyone because of an eminence double dipping. A 300k black out kick would typically heal for 75k, but then you add in the buff TeB is giving to healing, and you just spammed a 126k heal on someone. :/ Suddenly, instead of 3healing, you have 2 healers and a WW monk that would just attack in serpent stance.

I wouldn't mind a more "aoe" type stance for WW's though. Something that would passively increase spinning crane kicks damage by say 30% and cause it to generate one extra chi when it hits 3 or more targets, and FoF's damage by 100%. And just like switching stances before, you'd lose all your chi, so you couldn't just switch to Red Crane stance, and FoF a single target. It would be to enhance the damage of FoF'ing cleaving.

Just so WW isn't left the only spec without some sort of extra stance.
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90 Tauren Monk
11300
It wouldn't have to be that all the current stances are available to all specs. Any additional stances should have ww and brm still using energy, and mw still using mana. If implemented I think it'd have to be something which changes how some abilities work, taking one function away and adding another, rather than it being the same old offensive/defensive difference. And there would probably have to be a relatively long cooldown on switching stances. Which would make them pretty much like chakras. We already have everything we need/are balanced around outside of different stances, and unless we could be compensated for, while not being overpowered, not having something needed available while in a certain stance, I don't think it could be done well.

I would like a way to get an uppercut or some other cool attack that hasn't been used yet though.
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I would personally love to stance dance :(

07/08/2013 02:44 PMPosted by Elv
Serpent stance would offer nothing for a brewmaster or ww because we don't have any healing spells for it.


They could add a weaker version of Soothing Mists available for Windwalker. Yay, targeted heals!

07/08/2013 02:44 PMPosted by Elv
We don't wear int gear to get our spell power up, and I feel like it would affect eminence too much if say a WW popped a RoRo'd tiger eye brew, and switched to Serpent stance, and just started healing the crap out of everyone because of an eminence double dipping.


Rising Sun Kick and Tigereye Brew could be a Stance of the Fierce Tiger-only thing. Changing stances would remove the Tigereye Brew effect, as well as remove the Rising Sun Kick debuff from any enemies, so that it's detrimental to go into another stance at the wrong time.

07/08/2013 02:44 PMPosted by Elv
A 300k black out kick would typically heal for 75k, but then you add in the buff TeB is giving to healing, and you just spammed a 126k heal on someone. :/ Suddenly, instead of 3healing, you have 2 healers and a WW monk that would just attack in serpent stance.


This could also be balanced very easily.

Keep in mind that you are missing the extra Chi generation and 10% damage from Fierce Tiger.

Pair that with my other suggestion, RSK and TEB are fierce tiger-only, and changing out of Fierce Tiger will remove the buff and debuffs.

If we were allowed to switch in and out of stances at will that would pretty much render our spec system redundant. That and our stances are geared towards specific roles available in the game. you didn't really think this out at all did you?


We are a hybrid class... and I am sure there could be plenty of balancing so that, obviously, a Windwalker isn't as effective as a Brewmaster while in Sturdy Ox...

It's enough of a hassle getting up close and personal to CC and improve healing, i don't want to worry about having to change stances too. I think our system works fine.


I'd agree and say that Windwalker should be the biggest target of using multiple stances. We could use a few more things to worry about in my opinion.
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90 Gnome Monk
7335
I would like a way to get an uppercut or some other cool attack that hasn't been used yet though.


Keep in mind, 6.0 will bring us an attack or two. :D

Rising Sun Kick and Tigereye Brew could be a Stance of the Fierce Tiger-only thing. Changing stances would remove the Tigereye Brew effect, as well as remove the Rising Sun Kick debuff from any enemies, so that it's detrimental to go into another stance at the wrong time.


In Serpent stance, our attacks are determined by our spell power. The more spell power we have, the more attack power we have. I'm at 242 spell power right now. Multiply that by two for the stance, and I'm at 484. So they'd have to totally change the sp*2 + (atkp*0)=attack power idea for the stance, and add it as a passive for mistweaver.

But if they do that, then what about vengeance stacking for brewmasters. Suddenly, we have a brewmaster with 200k attack power in serpent stance, doing healing out the wazhoo as well, until he has to go back and tank. Because you keep your vengeance, no matter what stance you're in.
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90 Night Elf Monk
0
If we were allowed to switch in and out of stances at will that would pretty much render our spec system redundant. That and our stances are geared towards specific roles available in the game. you didn't really think this out at all did you?


Yes, I did. But you don't seem to be understanding what I am saying.

I am saying the current stance system was put in poorly and has no place. The different things the current stances do(like give you mana) should just be baked into spec.

Let actual stances be an actual mechanic. Otherwise, it's just taking up UI space.

07/08/2013 02:44 PMPosted by Elv
Serpent stance would offer nothing for a brewmaster or ww because we don't have any healing spells for it.


What if Serpent Stance was like the old Seal of Light for Paladins when used by a brewmaster or Windwalker? As in, you do less DPS, but your attacks passively heal others.

It's not fair that monks essentially lose out on what realistically should be a core mechanic of theirs just because warriors were here first.
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In Serpent stance, our attacks are determined by our spell power. The more spell power we have, the more attack power we have. I'm at 242 spell power right now. Multiply that by two for the stance, and I'm at 484. So they'd have to totally change the sp*2 + (atkp*0)=attack power idea for the stance, and add it as a passive for mistweaver.

But if they do that, then what about vengeance stacking for brewmasters. Suddenly, we have a brewmaster with 200k attack power in serpent stance, doing healing out the wazhoo as well, until he has to go back and tank. Because you keep your vengeance, no matter what stance you're in.


How I picture the Wise Serpent stance for WW and BrM is

1. Only grants 20% bonus healing and Eminence.
2. Allows the use of Soothing Mists, now a baseline ability, so we finally all have a reliable, non-cooldown targeted heal.
3. Still energy instead of mana. Soothing Mists would be a stronger alternative to Healing Spheres, but since it's channeled, would still be balanced in PvP.

Then the developers can make most of the extra Mistweaver-specific perks to the stance isntead become passives / thrown onto existing passives.

For example, Mistweavers always have mana, no need to be in Wise Serpent. This would remove the cheap healing sphere use of Fierce Tiger for MW monks that already exists, so another benefit would need to be given to MW monks to use Fierce Tiger.

Same would work for Sturdy Ox - Only 25% damage reduction as well as the base Stagger effect would be part of the stance. All other effects for Brewmaster monks, like the 20% health, would become passives.

Our stances have so many effects and text at the moment since the developers didn't want to make all of that passives for some reason. It has ended up making us less of a hybrid class.

-however- it is important that WW and MW get increased threat generation from Sturdy Ox. BrM doesn't need the increased threat generation since it's all in their abilities.
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90 Gnome Monk
7335
What if Serpent Stance was like the old Seal of Light for Paladins when used by a brewmaster or Windwalker? As in, you do less DPS, but your attacks passively heal others
I could see it for brew when it's not tanking, but then it just becomes another stance they have to manage when switching back to tanking. As for ww, with our new mastery nerf, we can't afford to lose that 10% increased damage from tiger stance for anything.

07/08/2013 11:12 PMPosted by Broldir
it is important that WW and MW get increased threat generation from Sturdy Ox.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. As it is now, whenever I'm going into heroic dungeons (and even some lfr) I'm already gimping myself to not steal aggro off a tank, because most of them can't handle the RoRo burst with 30k dps. To add the threat generation would make me flop over dead half the time. If I wanted to tank, I'd be a brewmaster for it. Gimping a WW switching into it by reducing it's chi generation (especially with the upcoming mastery change) would probably just make us want to be a brewmaster instead of ever stepping into that stance.

However, Wise serpent, even with eminence, would cripple our damage to the point where it isn't worth it, because with the new mastery change, 1 chi gained means double in time period for getting TeB stacks. And shamans, and shadow priests don't have to give up their damage to heal with VE and Ancestral Guidance, why should we?
Edited by Elv on 7/8/2013 11:49 PM PDT
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07/08/2013 11:47 PMPosted by Elv
To add the threat generation would make me flop over dead half the time.


Only in stance of the sturdy ox, which my proposed change involves giving the stance to WW

xD not all the time

You shouldn't be in stance of the sturdy ox, since that would be a 30% damage decrease plus no use of TEB.

The only time you'd go in there is if you had to temporarily tank a boss when something bad happens. When I am temporarily tanking a boss, it is annoying as a hybrid class to lose aggro to a non-hybrid class. It's happened to me, I lost aggro to a rogue, even though they have nice defensive CDs.
Edited by Broldir on 7/9/2013 12:33 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Monk
0
07/08/2013 11:47 PMPosted by Elv
I could see it for brew when it's not tanking, but then it just becomes another stance they have to manage when switching back to tanking. As for ww, with our new mastery nerf, we can't afford to lose that 10% increased damage from tiger stance for anything.


Keep in mind I'm thinking more into the next expansion beta, when Blizzard would actually be willing to make drastic changes like this.

In regards to that, current damage modifiers and what not mean absolutely nothing because it all has to be re-balanced anyways.

So the numbers don't actually mean much now anyways. Especially with the knowledge that the number crunch is supposedly happening next expansion.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9960
Keep in mind, 6.0 will bring us an attack or two. :D


Id much rather still be able to play the character I've invested an entire expansion in as the spec I prefer in raids ): So new skill or two soon pls. The uppercut animation is already designed so I feel like it is something that they want to implement, but arent sure. As of now we take a lot of influence from the Celestials of Pandaria sans ofc Chi-Ji. The only skill that is a partial throwback to him as of now is SCK. Give me my flaming crane uppercut as another RSK level damage skill and lets call it even shall we GC?
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90 Human Paladin
13195
Save the stance dancing for Warriors and DKs, I want no part in it.


If you want to get technical about it, you all have real stances, warriors just have presences like death knights now. By that I mean Monk stances actually swap out your action bar and have abilities that only work in certain stances.

Warriors no longer have true stances/forms. Warrior stances are more like Death Knights. There's no restriction on what abilities you can use in each warrior "stance" (presence).
Edited by Bravehearth on 7/10/2013 12:17 AM PDT
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90 Human Monk
5175
07/10/2013 12:16 AMPosted by Bravehearth
Save the stance dancing for Warriors and DKs, I want no part in it.


Pretty sure the reason stances are as they are is to save the trouble of also monotoring your stances. Stance dancing CAN be enjoyable, but you'd be surprised how hectic it can get.
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90 Human Monk
5835
They could add a weaker version of Soothing Mists available for Windwalker. Yay, targeted heals!


Hell no, that's our spell.
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90 Gnome Monk
5530
I would love to be able to switch stances based on what im doing

Ala...dks...pallies...warriors....druids

Seriously its ok that the dps specs of these classes can switch to tank pres to offtank (or just hold threat in a scenario) but the only way for me to do that is to switch to my tank spec.

Seems very silly and an oversight tbh.
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07/10/2013 01:15 PMPosted by Therem
They could add a weaker version of Soothing Mists available for Windwalker. Yay, targeted heals!


Hell no, that's our spell.


Ok. Then give me dematerialize. kkthx :3
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