Could HotR serve as a target-less AoE?

100 Draenei Paladin
11185
Hey guys, don't mind me, I'm just thinking out loud again.

I don't mind our current AoE style. It may not flow very well, but at least it has a solid priority queue, and I like to think that we're unique with out AoE finisher. However, it does irritate me that our finisher is our only AoE ability that doesn't require a target.

So, I'm wondering if HotR could be reworked to no longer require a target. It still functions in much the same way, except that you can use it anywhere. If they wanted to, they could add an additional mechanic wherein the current mechanics would apply if your target is in melee range. I'm imagining the tooltip looking something like this:

Hammer of the Righteous
Slam your weapon against the ground, releasing a wave of light that inflicts 35% weapon damage as Holy to all targets within 8 yards and granting a charge of Holy Power if at least one target is affected. If your current target is in melee range, you will hammer them for 25% weapon damage as physical, and the wave of light will originate from their location.

It sounds alright to me, but in a way it sounds clumsy. It would have to be a "smart" ability so to speak, e.g. the game first checks to see if an enemy is close enough to hit, and if not, it defaults to simply hammering the ground and releasing the AoE from your position.

What do you guys think? Would this make AoE less of a headache for us? Or would you go a different route?
Edited by Valethria on 7/10/2013 8:09 PM PDT
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93 Dwarf Paladin
15135
We really do need a baseline, non-dump, targetless AoE - in PvP it's a given for stealth detection, but the Lei Shi encounter last tier proved this to be a serious deficiency in PvE, too. Sure, we have talent options, but we really shouldn't have to talent for a targetless AoE, especially when the talents have such long cooldowns. It's bad design.
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100 Draenei Paladin
19360
Hammer being targetless would be fine and a good solution, we need a baseline AoE ability like that.

Besides what you already suggested though they'd have to take away the Holy Power generation unless it connects with a target as well I think.
Edited by Cadenbrie on 7/10/2013 8:04 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Paladin
11185
Besides what you already suggested though they'd have to take away the Holy Power generation unless it connects with a target as well I think.

In retrospect, I probably should have considered that. I'll just, uh...update that there OP right quick. >.>
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100 Dwarf Paladin
19505
You have Holy Wrath. Consecration. Holy Prism/Light's Hammer is you spec for them. There is no need for this change. And other tanks have similar abilities which require a target - Heart Strike/Revenge/Swipe (okay those are cleaves, but they fulfil a similar role).
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100 Human Paladin
11330
07/11/2013 10:03 PMPosted by Slainidh
You have Holy Wrath. Consecration.

Not as Ret, we don't. Prot's covered on targetless AoEs though, sure, as are DKs (Blood Boil) and warriors (Thunderclap); I don't know Brewmasters or bears well enough to say really.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18550
Bears don't need to target Swipe or Thrash.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
19505
Not as Ret, we don't. Prot's covered on targetless AoEs though, sure, as are DKs (Blood Boil) and warriors (Thunderclap); I don't know Brewmasters or bears well enough to say really.

Druids have Thrash as targetless AoE. Not sure about monks myself either.

But I have never really played Retribution, so I didn't think of their AoE. Does Divine Storm work okay? Ret's AoE probably does need buffing a bit, but making HotR targetless seem a bit overpowered.
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100 Human Paladin
11330
DS does not work at all well for the desired purpose, since it costs resources which we cannot build without a target.

Our AoE overall is fine, and making HotR usable targetless wouldn't make that any stronger, it would just be a mild QoL improvement, and make it slightly less impossible to destealth a nearby rogue.
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93 Dwarf Paladin
15135
Monks have Spinning Crane Kick.

07/11/2013 10:03 PMPosted by Slainidh
Holy Prism/Light's Hammer is you spec for them. There is no need for this change.


We shouldn't have to talent something which, literally, every other possible melee spec has baseline. Even Enhance Shaman have Magma Totem that does not require a target and which they can drop anywhere they please.
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We really do need a baseline, non-dump, targetless AoE - in PvP it's a given for stealth detection, but the Lei Shi encounter last tier proved this to be a serious deficiency in PvE, too. Sure, we have talent options, but we really shouldn't have to talent for a targetless AoE, especially when the talents have such long cooldowns. It's bad design.


Our tank isn't very happy with it at the moment - it makes picking up Tortos' bats a real PitA. I've been hating on the design of our AoE since beta.

I was thinking about this the other day, and the whole AoE cycle is odd. We have to spend time to shift in and out of our AoE seal, so it's a waste of time in a boss fight unless there are pauses before and after an add phase. One of our AoEs is targeted, another a finisher, and third a talent with either a long or a very long (for something you'll use rotationally) cooldown. About half the damage in our AoE rotation is actually single-target, and about half the Holy Power for DS comes from single target attacks. Effectively we're doing a single target rotation and cleaving, but for DS and our L90 talents.

I'd be okay with this, given it's how much of melee functions, expect that it's on top of having almost no targeted AoE. That blows.

Oh, and while Blizzard is at it they can fix Holy Prism so that it doesn't aggro everything within 15 yards of its target when cast on a hostile.
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93 Dwarf Paladin
15135
Mass Exorcism is a nice boost for AoE/cleave fights - and I don't normally unglyph it, as I'm pretty much always right up in melee, anyway, after my first Judgement. For Tortos, I just tab through and slowly stack Censure on several at a time; 2pT15 + MExo makes for some hilarious damage at that point!
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100 Draenei Paladin
11185
Druids have Thrash as targetless AoE. Not sure about monks myself either.

But I have never really played Retribution, so I didn't think of their AoE. Does Divine Storm work okay? Ret's AoE probably does need buffing a bit, but making HotR targetless seem a bit overpowered.

Damage-wise, our AoE is fine; I'm usually in the top 5 during AoE pulls. The main issue is the target requirement. Consider fights like Lei Shi, where you need to AoE in order to pull her out of Hide. We're pretty significantly gimped in those kinds of situations.

(Thanks to Grongard for reminding me about that. :P)

It would really just be a QoL thing. No other class (that I can think of) requires a target for their primary (in terms of use) AoE ability. Abilities that do are cleaves, which are a whole different can of worms.

Mass Exorcism is a nice boost for AoE/cleave fights - and I don't normally unglyph it, as I'm pretty much always right up in melee, anyway, after my first Judgement. For Tortos, I just tab through and slowly stack Censure on several at a time; 2pT15 + MExo makes for some hilarious damage at that point!

I love multi-dotting groups with Censure. It's even more fun when I immediately switch to SoR and continue as normal. My screen fills up with so many numbers, it's insane. :P

07/11/2013 11:55 PMPosted by Sharrow
We have to spend time to shift in and out of our AoE seal, so it's a waste of time in a boss fight unless there are pauses before and after an add phase.

I really only switch out of SoT when there's 4+ mobs in a pull. SoR only really pulls ahead in those cases. The 2PC bonus plus Mass Exorcism is a pretty big boon to SoR's damage, though.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17495
You have Holy Wrath. Consecration. Holy Prism/Light's Hammer is you spec for them. There is no need for this change. And other tanks have similar abilities which require a target - Heart Strike/Revenge/Swipe (okay those are cleaves, but they fulfil a similar role).


I (and I think everyone else replying) assumed that this thread was regarding ret only, because prot does have those targetless tools.

Ret has nothing besides LH which is a talent on a 1 minute cd (pretty sure Holy Prism doesn't affect stealthed targets). The big example of the problem here is Lei Shi in t14, where a ret could literally do nothing during the hiding phase (If they had 3 HP banked going into it, then they could get off one DS before having to sit there doing nothing). DS costs HP, and there is no way to build HP without a target.
Edited by Silverbolt on 7/12/2013 7:54 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
19730
HotR not requiring a target would be a huge quality of life boost for rets, and the fact they haven't done it yet is quite irritating. Especially when you consider that nearly none of the other dps specs require targets for their aoe.
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