Prot Paladin Changes in 5.4 PTR

100 Blood Elf Paladin
15195
Perhaps this is a bit idealistic, but I want to believe that Blizz really does read these forums and takes feedback into account.

I have been tanking as a Paladin since BC to varying degrees of success across varying types of content. Based on that progression, the current proposed changes worry me.

In BC, tanking was a strange mix of frantically trying not to die while generating inhuman amounts of threat. This was a problematic in a lot of ways, mainly the squishiness, which led to Wrath style tanking.

In Wrath, we got a huge buff to our base sustainability. For non-heroic raiding, you could easily keep one finger over Judgment, Shield, and Hammer and mash them with intermittent cooldown use for a viable tanking rotation. This was too simple and required too little active input, which led to the Cataclysm changes.

In Cata, we got holy power. This forced us to manage our rotation more precisely, and rewarded strong players, while not handicapping us unnecessarily. While this was a great step in the right direction, classwise, I understand that the balance between tanking classes left something to be desired (DK's were spikey, Paladins took no damage, warriors just needed lots of gear, etc.). This brings us to Mists.

In Mists, Blizz has said that they desire a more active tanking mechanic, similar to Death Knights. This playstyle encourages a higher level of participation and awareness from tanks, and in theory is a great idea. Theorycrafters leapt into the nuts and bolts of it and found that Haste was a perfectly viable stat for tanking, better in fact than Dodge or Parry.

Originally this was treated as a bit of a fluke, but over time became accepted. Having more Holy power and using your Shield at the right time provided ideal results. This meant that knowledgeable tanks properly using class abilities were performing best, while tanks relying on traditional tanking stats were perfectly acceptable, if less ideal.

This brings us up to the proposed changes for 5.4.

*Seal of Insight no longer has a chance to restore mana on attacks. - First Seal of Truth and now Seal of Insight are worthless for us. Which Seal did you want us to use again? There's the healing one, the AoE one, the Ret one, and the PvP one.

*Glyph of Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to heal the most wounded raid or party member instead of the Paladin. - Now irrelevant, but would have also been a serious reason to look at what seal you think we should be using.

*Grand Crusader no longer has a chance to activate from Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous, but now has a 30% chance to activate when dodging or parrying a melee attack (up from 12%).

That last one is the biggie. What that means is that all gear that we have been collecting is essentially useless. This is frustrating in and of itself, since I will have wasted all the valor, gold, and crafting mats, but will also negatively affect my entire raid team.

In terms of game design, Dodge and Parry again being king troubles me greatly. We have been building to a point where base stats that don't have any effect on the buttons we push are being weaned out (PvP resilience, Defense, MP5, Armor Pen, etc.). Dodge and Parry are exactly the same as those. They don't fit into your model of active tanking, they don't provide any visceral change to the game (e.g. haste makes us go faster and crits do big damage and show up differently), and they force us (and you) to keep dealing with gear that only a handful of classes want (and right now, just Warriors).

The defense that "Dodge and Parry are the traditional tanking stats and we want to differentiate between stats for DPS and stats for other roles" is not only invalid; it is laughably contradicted by the fact that you are adding Riposte IN THE SAME PATCH to give Death Knights and Warriors....CRIT.

I guess what all this is leading to is: Why are we still using Dodge and Parry? Why not let it become active tanking like you want and use stats that actually make sense? And if you don't want to do that, why sabotage raid groups with Paladin MTs and OTs going into the last patch of the expansion? I think Paladin tanks as a whole have been pretty adaptable, but this is the first time, in my opinion, that you have taken a step backwards in terms of game design. Going back to Wrath isn't the answer.
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90 Undead Warlock
8585
You'll have a better chance of them reading the feedback on the PTR forum, should copy it over there.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
17015
07/11/2013 06:22 AMPosted by Amargein
*Grand Crusader no longer has a chance to activate from Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous, but now has a 30% chance to activate when dodging or parrying a melee attack (up from 12%).


This is still active mitigation, a little RNG though.

Prot paladins are overpowered, just think about your warrior bros.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15195
It isn't actually active. It is a button lighting up because of something we had no control over. Active is planning resource usage and timing your cooldowns. I understand the mana issues are a bigger concern; this post was more about the overall backwards step.
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Blizzard doesn't read THIS forum (or any class forum; generally, class forums are for discussion, not feedback), but they do read other forums, especially the PTR. You'll probably have better luck there.

Seal of Insight's value has always been its healing, which isn't going away; losing the mana would cause issues if it went live alone, but it won't, per this post:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9423553519?page=3#55

I think a lot of tanks agree with you on dodge/parry at this point, and I'll be pretty disappointed if they aren't in some way dramatically overhauled for 6.0.
The defense that "Dodge and Parry are the traditional tanking stats and we want to differentiate between stats for DPS and stats for other roles" is not only invalid; it is laughably contradicted by the fact that you are adding Riposte IN THE SAME PATCH to give Death Knights and Warriors....CRIT.

That's not a contradiction, it's just a dodge/parry buff. DPS will still not want avoidance gear; warriors/DKs will want avoidance gear even more strongly, and have even less incentive to use DPS gear. That makes the divide between "tank stats" and "DPS stats" wider, not narrower.
Edited by Ravicana on 7/11/2013 9:11 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
16380
07/11/2013 06:22 AMPosted by Amargein
*Seal of Insight no longer has a chance to restore mana on attacks. - First Seal of Truth and now Seal of Insight are worthless for us. Which Seal did you want us to use again? There's the healing one, the AoE one, the Ret one, and the PvP one.
We'll still use SoI. Blues have come right out and said that this change was NOT directed at prot, it was just them removing the remnants of their attempt at giving Holy a "melee healer" option. They've stated that they have no intention of leaving prot in danger of going OOM, even in a haste build and that they'll make adjustments so we don't (such as probably boosting our base regen from GBtL up to like 10%). In other words this doesn't change anything for prot.

07/11/2013 06:22 AMPosted by Amargein
*Glyph of Battle Healer has been redesigned. The glyph now causes Seal of Insight to heal the most wounded raid or party member instead of the Paladin. - Now irrelevant, but would have also been a serious reason to look at what seal you think we should be using.
Why would this change make us second question our seal? All it does is make us second question the glyph. And again, the battle healer glyph wasn't originally intended for us, it was part of the "melee healer" concept for holy that just happened to become so powerful for tanks. We may not like it but it was an overpowered glyph and the change is warranted. And it again doesn't change anything about the way we gear, all it does is change one glyph slot for us.

*Grand Crusader no longer has a chance to activate from Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous, but now has a 30% chance to activate when dodging or parrying a melee attack (up from 12%).

That last one is the biggie. What that means is that all gear that we have been collecting is essentially useless. This is frustrating in and of itself, since I will have wasted all the valor, gold, and crafting mats, but will also negatively affect my entire raid team.
No, it does not mean that all that gear you've been collecting is useless. GC is most definitely NOT the only reason we liked haste, heck it was probably one of the smallest reasons. We still have SoB, so haste still means more hopo generation. We still has SS, so haste still means more absorb bubbles. We still have SoI, so haste still means more passive self-heals (or raid heals if you decide to keep the glyph). These are all more important than GC.

And again, blues have specifically stated that they are NOT trying to push us out of haste and they are NOT trying to force us to use avoidance. The ONE and ONLY reasoning behind this change is they are trying to narrow the gap between the stats. Make it so that avoidance, while it'll still almost definitely still be our worst stats, isn't *as bad* as it currently is. That's it, and they do it to other classes and specs all the time. At the start of Cata the original mastery for combat rogues was terrible, we'd rather go over the spell hit cap than have any mastery, yet they continued to tweak and buff their mastery over several patches (all within the first tier of cata), they weren't trying to make combat rogues want mastery, all they did was make it not-worthless so that when we saw a piece that was haste/mastery we thought "hey that's a pretty good piece" instead of saying "man I wish that had a second stat on it instead of just haste". And that's all they're doing here, making it so that dodge and parry aren't *as bad* so that we might look at a exp/dodge item and think it's not *that bad*, at least better than a haste/crit item. As well as also make it more viable to go for our set bonuses (ie any prot paladin using their 4p this tier means they have avoidance on at least 4 of their items, this change makes those 4 items a little better than they are right now).

Let me give an example with stat weights. Let's say that right now prot's stat weights are something like this:
hit/exp = 1
haste = 1
mastery = 0.7
avoidance = 0.3

That's a huge disparity in stats. What they're trying to do is probably shift them to something like:
hit/exp = 1
haste = 0.8
mastery = 0.7
avoidance = 0.5

The gap is a lot closer now, but doesn't actually change the priority order.

TL;DR: people are way too paranoid, and afraid that papa blizzard is gonna take away our brand new toy. If they were really going to gut haste tanking then they'd just take SoB away from prot.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
16380
It isn't actually active. It is a button lighting up because of something we had no control over. Active is planning resource usage and timing your cooldowns. I understand the mana issues are a bigger concern; this post was more about the overall backwards step.
Also, this is a poor argument. You're basically saying you don't like the change to GC because it's RNG based instead of being predictable/controllable. But you overlook the fact that GC has been RNG based for the entire expansion. Even before 5.2 when GC only proc'd off of CS/HotR it was still a proc and reliant on the RNG and was therefore just "a button lighting up because of something we had no control over."

The current/previous GC were no more predictable or controllable than the future one will be. So that really is not a valid complaint about the change. The only thing the change does is make it so that GC won't scale with haste anymore and will instead only scale off avoidance. But again, this is a MUCH smaller deal than people make it out to be. It makes avoidance a little better, and brings haste down a little bit but most likely haste will still be king.
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