Open Libram LXXXVII: Mobile Suit Paladin

90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
Primo and Spark are roughly equal in a vacuum at the same item level. Actualy value depends on fight - Jin'rokh and Primordius would favor Spark, since you don't burst on pull, and I'm also thinking maybe Qon, Horridon, and Tortos would, too, to have the slight burst for second Quilen, adds, and small burst window after first kick/first round of bats respectively.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
I'm convinced very few people understand what the puddle does judging by the amount of people that pop CDs on pull instead of waiting for the puddle. Hell, I still see some of it on reg - which is frightening.

If I pop CDs on the pull, I get CDs then, and another set with the second puddle. If I wait, I only get one set of CDs.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
19285
Spark is superior to primo trinket for raiding if you want more exo/cs/truth hits/rppm trinket procs. Primo trinket is good for challenge modes however.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11665
I actually enjoy the primo trinket more than the spark especially when 5 stacks keep refreshing. But I need MOAR HASTE!!!!
90 Blood Elf Paladin
19285
My jikun trinket (rppm) is nearly always active thx to my haste (plus its 2/2 H-Tforged) the nearly 2k haste on spark is undebatabley bis. At a lower gear level primordius is better like lfr-mid heroic gear area
Edited by Zagara on 7/17/2013 10:32 AM PDT
90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
The thing is, it comes down either to the fight or which is the higher item level. If you have both at equivalent item levels, I'd say best bet is to swap on a per-fight basis. The haste on Spark is nice, but it really shouldn't outweigh the more constant strength from Primo under certain situations. All your haste over mine changes your swing timer by 1/10th of a second (and you ACDs by even less), which is not much in the grand scheme.

There really isn't a clear-cut answer; it's mostly preference, but I really do think that certain fights would favor one over the other.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
19285
Every drop of haste is a dps gain for ret and how it works. But play how you want if you feel content everyone is different.
90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
Every point of anything not over a cap is a DPS gain for Ret and how it works. Crit is good, mastery is good, strength is good - and we have not yet hit the 1:1 strength:haste barrier yet, so the possibility of more available strength does need to be taken into consideration. Again, though, under certain circumstances.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
19285
With haste gcd cap nearly obtainable this tier max haste is 48.36% for h TF tot gear. Mastery will then be what we stack with mastery/str gems to increase output and crit will be after that. But atm for ToT haste is king purely to fish procs. From 35% haste to my current haste I barely shave .20 seconds off CDs but every bit helps me fish 4set procs and exo procs
Edited by Zagara on 7/17/2013 10:52 AM PDT
Every drop of haste is a dps gain for ret and how it works. But play how you want if you feel content everyone is different.

Certainly. Every drop of crit is also a gain, although a smaller one. But most of the value of both trinkets lies in their procs.

We're not just asserting that we like the Primo trinket and therefore it must be competitive. We have considerable data supporting that assertion. The prevailing opinion on this forum (including my own) was that Spark was clearly better and Primordius was garbage, until somebody actually looked at the data, and found that isn't actually true.

Your own profile, for example, sims 184439 DPS with your Spark, and 184318 DPS with an equivalent Talisman. That's, what, .07% DPS difference?

We have data and math; all I'm seeing to counter that is unsupported assertions.
Edited by Ravicana on 7/17/2013 11:01 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Paladin
19285
Sims are usually flawed and don't take into account stars align and did you break a mirror 20 times. Plus it inaccuratly does rppm trinkets and most procs.
Sims are a tool. They're not perfect, sure. Take it with a grain of salt.

Do you have some empirical data to support your claim? Because bald assertions are even less reliable than sims.

Edit: To the best of my knowledge, Simcraft models procs and RPPM accurately. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be interested in seeing it, if you don't mind.
Edited by Ravicana on 7/17/2013 11:08 AM PDT
90 Orc Death Knight
16325
Haste might be king but you don't blindly just stack it because it's the highest stat weight. You have to look at averages and other stats that come into play. Even a trinket with passive crit can surpass something with passive haste if it has a better proc. I see people here think that crit is garbage, when in reality it's not as abysmal as some people here would lead you to believe.

Talisman is a much more friendly proc and in my opinion just flat out superior to spark in a lot of situations. The built in proc protection only ensures 1/10 of your procs on spark, which is infinitely less useful than talismans proc. Spark won't be up on a number of bosses that pop lust almost immediately, making it fairly hard to time. Whereas on an encounter like Heroic Durumu which you typically lust at the start, it's much better to run with the Talisman because everything is up at the start and during lust you can expect 3-5 stacks being up for it's duration.

Point is the trinkets aren't that different and it largely depends on whether it's an encounter where you front load damage or use it at different points. Spark is fairly good on Jin'rokh considering it's likely you will get your 10th stack slightly before, slightly after or right when the puddle spawns.
90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
Sims are not the end-all of accuracy, I'll grant that; doesn't change the fact that certain situations most likely favor certain trinkets more so than others. We had that in DS, with Bone-Link Fetish being better on some fights, if you'll recall.

Also, the "stars align" argument is a one-in-a-thousand type occurrence, and things like SimCraft run several thousand different iterations, average them together, to give you a bigger picture of what's going on that smooths out various RNG factors. You do a fight with Spark and get a few more crits, it's gonna look really good; do the same fight with Primo with fewer crits, it looks bad. But one fight with each is too small a sample size to account for random factors like criticals and procs.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
19285
I've used heroic TF primo before (unlucky bonus roll) and was doing significantly less dps during DA heroic over the course of a 2 hour wipefest vs using spark. Also tested it during twins. So I find it marginally worse. Also messed around in lfr and target dummy's before concluding to vender it.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
19285
Never saw a single bone link fetish drop ever. Sucked for h yorsahj progression. Almost got sat for fire mages.
90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
Animus would be a case where Spark would be better; Twins, I'm still not entirely sure. But, again, you looked at an incredibly small sample that could be inherently skewed by various RNG factors. And dummies are notorious for not proccing trinkets properly, LFR is notorious for not having the same people, the same things done at precisely the same instant or the same DPS.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
19285
Twins is where I'd imagine primo would of been better for all the twerks of the fight on h but it just sucked greatly. Lfr I run with a group every time so it's not that different.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
07/17/2013 11:18 AMPosted by Zagara
would of

At least learn English before you start spouting anecdotes as empirical evidence.
90 Human Paladin
15265
Morning Pally Crew

Rewatching 00 Gundam, think thats my favorite one
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