Dodge and Parry don't actually have a "feel"

90 Tauren Paladin
9715
"
We know you guys like active mitigation. We like it too. We totally agree -- it feels a lot better (and a lot more fun) than passive mitigation.

However, in the short term, dodge and parry still exist. We want them to serve at least some value to tanks. They don't have to be your best stats, we just want them to feel like they're at least accomplishing something.

"

Stop messing with your accidental success. Haste-heavy prot paladins are the correct version of what you twits thought you wanted tanks to be in this xpac, now you're going all bull-in-a-china-shop on it.

Dodges and Parries don't have a feel. Guardian druids are lame as !@#$ to play, being RNG dependant is stupid... You click your big "OMG DODGE" button and you still get the %^-* beaten out of you. Either you dodged the attack, or you didn't... And there's very little you can do about it if the RNG God decided to forsake you if you jack our healing up. Not to mention that dodge and parry have no answer for magical damage.

You're taking our class from awesome dynamic active healer/tank/meat shield to video poker machine on two hooves.

Stop meddling. Get your grubby hands off of my class and put away your broken calculators.
Edited by Beefwalk on 7/16/2013 5:57 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
You're taking our class from awesome dynamic active healer/tank/meat shield to video poker machine on two hooves.

Except they're not even changing anything important with regards to haste? The 5.4 changes will still leave haste on top and avoidance on the bottom.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
17175
Yeah, people need to stop overreacting about all this stuff. There is ONE and only one reason for ALL of the changes over the past few patches regarding haste and avoidance in regards to tankadins:

The gap between them in value is faaaaaaaaar too big. And they're simply trying to narrow it.

That's it. They're not trying to "break" haste builds (I've said before, if that was their intent all they'd need to do is take SoB away from prot and call it a day). They're not trying to force us into using dodge and parry. They're simply trying to make the difference between avoidance and haste smaller. So that -IF- have a piece of gear with dodge or parry on it, it won't be absolutely abysmal. It'll still be non-ideal, and you'll prefer an item with different stats, but it'll still be better than you have now. They have no intent of pushing us away from active mitigation, they love it just as much as we do.

There IS a middle ground. It is possible to make dodge and parry better than they currently are, make avoidance items less of a detriment, without making them better than haste. In fact there's a massive amount of room for them to do that (which is the problem in the first place). If you'd read the rest of Lore's post that you quoted, then you might have realized that this is what he's already said.

If you want, then look at it this way TC: this will effectively buff the 9 avoidance items you're currently wearing (including the valor cloak that you bought instead of the haste/mastery cloak).
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90 Human Paladin
7295
Grand Crusader doesn't make dodge parry better. The design of avoidance in this game is just bad. If we had to gear for dodge and parry tanking would just be boring as heck.

The stats are a relic. They never were really liked and at this point any attempts at make them relevant to people will always result in a backlash due to the completely passive nature of the avoidance system. The introduction of AM was the perfect time to finally get rid of it on gear. But blizzard keeps sending us this message that they want to keep Passive, boring, RNG based tanking around.

Thee is nothing they can do to make us like it. Sure they can make it so we'll stack the stats, but the cost will be our fun with the game.
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
07/17/2013 04:42 AMPosted by Berith
Grand Crusader doesn't make dodge parry better.

Sure it does, just not in any way that's important enough to worry about. Currently haste increases Grand Crusader's effect as well; by removing the haste portion and buffing the avoidance portion, avoidance's value will increase relative to haste's. It's just so little that it's irrelevant.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7570
Dodge and parry were only "interesting" when we had the possibility of dropping hits off of the combat table.

If they want to make us like avoidance stats, I think they need to keep giving us more "proc after dodge/parry" abilities that actually make a difference in survival.

More risk, more reward? It's a much larger risk to leave our survival up to random number generators, where's our huge reward for letting it happen? An occasional extra charge of Holy Power and some damage? BIG WHOOP.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13385
Grand Crusader doesn't make dodge parry better.

Sure it does, just not in any way that's important enough to worry about. Currently haste increases Grand Crusader's effect as well; by removing the haste portion and buffing the avoidance portion, avoidance's value will increase relative to haste's. It's just so little that it's irrelevant.


I don't necessary think it's irrelevant. I think they see Paladins taking Crit/Haste gear over, say, Dodge/Mastery gear as a problem, and they're making some minor tweaks in the hopes that we'll be shunning Crit rather than shunning Dodge. I'm not sure whether it'll be totally successful as far as that goes, but it's certainly not going to overhaul our stat priority in a meaningful way.

People do need to consider that this isn't a big change against raid bosses and is actually a tremendous buff whenever we're tanking multiple mobs. A lot of the fights next tier feature lots of adds, so I wouldn't really complain a lot.

Haste will still be awesome. :-P
Edited by Tailias on 7/17/2013 2:48 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
17175
@Berith and Kaskarum: You guys still aren't getting it. The change is NOT intented to make us want to use dodge/parry. Get that through your heads. The ONLY intent is to make them not as massively far behind as they currently are.

Again, that's it.

You guys act like scared little kids afraid that someone's going to try to take your new toy away from you.

All they want to do is change this:
hit = exp > haste > mastery >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doge = parry
into this:
hit = exp > haste > mastery > dodge = parry

So just take a deep breath and calm down.
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90 Human Paladin
7295
Sure it does, just not in any way that's important enough to worry about. Currently haste increases Grand Crusader's effect as well; by removing the haste portion and buffing the avoidance portion, avoidance's value will increase relative to haste's. It's just so little that it's irrelevant.


That's not what I meant, I meant it doesn't make Dodge/Parry any more fun (should've phrased it differently). RNG procs on top of an RNG based "mitigation" mechanic is just more RNG. You know why RNG is sorta fun in D&D but not in WoW ? Because in P&P D&D, I get to throw the dice. It's that gambler's moment where you shake it and hope for the best and throw it and either WIN! or GAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!

In CRPGs ? Dice is never fun. D&D rules on a computer just suck. There's no physical contact with the dice, no actual gambler's moment.

The rest of my post was based on this. Sure things like GC and other "buffs" to avoidance can make it so we'll stack the damn things as stats we want, but it won't make their current design any fun nor will it make us say "gee, I want MOAR PARRY BECAUSE IT'S SO ADDICTIVELY FUN!" like we do with Haste (or crit for classes that can use that. MOAR BIG NUMBERS!).

The visual stimulus/twitch gameplay that is the basis of fun in video games just works with Haste or Crit, not so much with Dodge/Parry. Those are fun mechanics for P&P dice rollers.

Get that through your heads


Please be respectful. I know why the change was put in place, doesn't mean I agree with it.

And I never mentionned being scared ? What is your problem ? Chill if you want to discuss, drop the ad hominems.
Edited by Berith on 7/17/2013 7:50 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
17175
Please be respectful. I know why the change was put in place, doesn't mean I agree with it.

And I never mentionned being scared ? What is your problem ? Chill if you want to discuss, drop the ad hominems.
I'm trying to be respectful, but you guys respond the exact same way every time, acting like Blizzard is trying to force us into using avoidance. Either you DON'T understand the purpose behind the change, or you're just making strawman arguments because you don't like a change that ultimately doesn't do anything but make more potential upgrades worth looking at between here and BiS.

As for the scared comment, how else am I to interpret constant overreacting and exaggeration about how you feel that Blizz is pushing you towards avoidance. That's what you're lashing out at, you seem to think that blizz is going to make you stack avoidance instead of active mitigation and you don't want to do that, sounds scared to me.

If you really understand why the change was put in place then why are you complaining? Because there's really nothing to complain about. Are you really just that dead against the concept that haste is only twice as good as avoidance instead of 3 times as good? Why? What's the big deal? If you want to discuss it then address what's actually happening instead of claiming that blizz is trying to push you into stats that they have no intention of pushing you into at all.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
17175
That's not what I meant, I meant it doesn't make Dodge/Parry any more fun (should've phrased it differently). RNG procs on top of an RNG based "mitigation" mechanic is just more RNG.
What do you think GC has been this ENTIRE expansion? An RNG proc. That's what it's been since the beginning that's what it is now, and that's what it'll be after this change. So the argument that "rng isn't fun" isn't even a valid one for this argument, because GC is rng either way. If they changed it back to only being proc'd by CS/HotR and not by avoidance at all, it still wouldn't be any more "fun" by your definition.

The rest of my post was based on this. Sure things like GC and other "buffs" to avoidance can make it so we'll stack the damn things as stats we want, but it won't make their current design any fun nor will it make us say "gee, I want MOAR PARRY BECAUSE IT'S SO ADDICTIVELY FUN!" like we do with Haste (or crit for classes that can use that. MOAR BIG NUMBERS!).
This is just a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You base your entire point on the fictitious belief that blizz wants you to stack more dodge/parry than you already have. The point of the change isn't to make you stack avoidance. It's not supposed to make you go "MOAR PARRY!!!". So again, DO you understand the purpose of the change, or are you just making strawman arguments?
Edited by Pancakê on 7/17/2013 9:50 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
SWC
20975
RNG can be fun. Getting back to back GC procs from smacking stuff is fun. Getting 10 rng full hits to the face isn't. Avoidance feels bad because it's wasteful. I'll be getting some degree of healing whether I'm taking damage or not. A streak of dodge/parries just feels like excessive overhealing rather than a nice bonus. That 5-10 seconds of lifebloom/renew/SoI was totally wasted overhealing. On the other hand a long streak of full hits isn't any better, now I'm just more taxing on my healers and liable to die. On either extreme the RNG feels punishing or bad, I'm either requiring an excess amount of heals to survive wasting healer mana, or I don't need any healing that I'm getting and waste healer many anyway.
GC procs are good RNG. The dice roll favors me and I get a nice boost in damage/interrupts/survival that I'm not overly reliant on to live. It lets me replace a low priority filler with a powerful HP generating Avengers Shield.

With that said I disagree with making GC basically a crappier version of revenge resets. It works well now allowing haste and avoidance to be useful at providing more avenger shields procs. The change basically means instead of 5 GC procs in a fight I might see 2, small nerf and will still avoid pretty much all avoidance gear.
Edited by Tuesdays on 7/17/2013 11:28 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
7295
07/17/2013 09:42 PMPosted by Pancakê
Either you DON'T understand the purpose behind the change,


Or maybe you just don't understand my position ?

You're not respectful when you call me things like "kid" (I'm 34 years old...) and say I'm some kind of paranoid raging lunatic.

What do you think GC has been this ENTIRE expansion? An RNG proc


Sigh. Read what I wrote again.

I can't discuss with you if you nitpick like others do. GC with CS/HotW/Judgement is an RNG proc over a controlled rotation. GC with Dodge/parry is an RNG proc over an RNG proc. See the difference ?

I know about its current status too, that it already procs over Dodge/parry.

Again, be respectful and you'll maybe start a discussion rather than doing what you're doing and attacking. We're discussing the feel of avoidance, or better put, "it's lack thereof". What is your take on the "feel of avoidance" ? I feel it's not fun. I've made this clear. Let's discuss this.

So again, DO you understand the purpose of the change, or are you just making strawman arguments?


Geez, just so we can lay it to rest and you can stop attacking me instead of discussing, here it is for your own enjoyment :

The purpose of the change is so that if that damn 1h mace with BOTH dodge and parry drops from the SoO first boss, we don't go "screw this, DE it even though mine is 30 ilvls lower, because frankly, that's a downgrade to all my secondaries".

The result of the change though, is this :

"screw this, DE it even though mine is 30 ivls lower, because frankly, that's a downgrade to all my secondaries".

The change itself doesn't make me want to lose haste to gain Dodge/Parry. So it fails as a change.

Now can we get back to discussing the actual topic rather than the GC change ? The "feel of Dodge/Parry" ? Ok with you ? We done with insults and attacks now ?
Edited by Berith on 7/18/2013 2:59 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
16365
It's a very minor change altogether

It might not be the best design, and one that most paladins probably do not like, but for us to pretty much ignore avoidance entirely is a little silly. I'm probably going to take haste/crit gear before I take something with mastery/parry

At the moment, I put crit at relative value to dodge/parry, and given how our other stats work, personally, I think that's a problem that needs addressed.
Gear that doesn't have haste on it should still be a consideration for Prot, and that's all the GC change is aimed to do. They weren't out to get us haste stacking paladins. It'll be nice if we have no choice but to pick up a piece of avoidance gear, that it not be complete trash.

Opinions.

I really wouldn't be surprised if avoidance gets reworked or removed entirely, but that's not something that is going to happen in 5.4, and for now, I think the change makes sense.
The vast majority of players prefer active mitigation, that's apparent, but for now, avoidance needs to have a use. A very small portion of players seem to like an avoidance model.

It will be kinda fun machine gunnin' those shields in certain situations, so I guess that's a +, and a rather decent buff for add fights.
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90 Human Paladin
7295
I'm probably going to take haste/crit gear before I take something with mastery/parry


Seriously, I would never consider that. Anything with Crit on it, I pass. It's as bad to me as Dodge/Parry pieces. Mastery has more value than Crit and so does Parry. Haste/Crit is a wasted piece of equipment with basically just very little haste on it.
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90 Tauren Paladin
16365
To an extent, it's the same idea really. It's simply a statement, but it's how many Prots gear right now.

One unappealing stat, one attractive stat on the piece of gear. I'd rather have haste than mastery, and the extra crit isn't 100% wasted, just like dodge/parry.

I swapped from Ret very recently for Heroic progression, and a few of the pieces I have had haste/crit on them, better than some of the avoidance alternatives I had.

It's really your perspective on things, but crit/dodge/parry don't have a useless weight, it comes down to how much value you want to place on them.
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90 Human Paladin
7295
Dodge and Parry have more value than Crit.
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90 Tauren Paladin
16365
Dodge and Parry have more value than Crit.


It's probably best to forget it at this point, since you probably missed what I was even saying.

I set a high value on haste, it has far too many benefits, especially at my gear level and for the content I'm doing, the extra mastery, or TDR from avoidance is quite... useless. The extra dps isn't, the extra healing isn't, the higher uptime on ShoR isn't.
You might find that it isn't, I do.

Vengeance scaling with SS/ShoR, and our arsenal of defensive cooldowns is already insane, it doesn't help that dodge/parry only extend our vengeance timer, and do not contribute. Makes me happy we don't have AM like Savage Defense.

The way I see it right now, regardless of whether or not dodge/parry has a higher value defensively than crit, that's quite obvious, If the gear has a decent amount of haste on it, and the alternative is dodge/parry, mastery/dodge, mastery/parry, whatever the case may be, I'm probably not going to use it.

MOAR HASTE!

I'd still rather have the gloves from Primordius, legs from Durumu, random stat haste bracers, and Raden Ring, but I can't have everything I want.

But if you want to get back on topic, considering =p

Now can we get back to discussing the actual topic rather than the GC change ? The "feel of Dodge/Parry" ? Ok with you ? We done with insults and attacks now ?


The stat is probably going away next expansion. Passive tanking is out-dated, not fun, and quite useless for raiding.
At the very least, combining the two into one stat would be a good start, and the same could be said with hit/exp, but I think they need to do more than that for avoidance to ever be attractive again.

I don't really know how much discussion there even is in this thread tbh, They are aware the stat isn't attractive, and I think we all can agree that Active mitigation was a great success. Pretty sure they will be doing something with Dodge and Parry next expac.
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90 Human Paladin
7295
Actually, back on topic, I would rather they remake dodge/parry into something that has a feel, something that is more than just dice rolling without the fun of actual dices.

Guild Wars 2 has something fun with their dodge mechanic. There is no stat behind it but such a dynamic system made to scale with stats is what would make those outdated, passive stats fun and Active.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7570
@Berith and Kaskarum: You guys still aren't getting it. The change is NOT intented to make us want to use dodge/parry. Get that through your heads. The ONLY intent is to make them not as massively far behind as they currently are.

Again, that's it.

You guys act like scared little kids afraid that someone's going to try to take your new toy away from you.

Relax. I was talking about the feel of dodge and parry, you know, like the thread's topic? I don't really care about the change to GC and what it does to dodge/parry in relation to haste. I'm simply talking about how underwhelming it is.
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