[Raid Healing] Need Priest Advice

90 Tauren Shaman
8940
Last night, my group downed Gara'jal and the Spirit Kings in 10N MSV. We normally run with a Blood DK and a BM Monk for tanks, but had to substitute the DK for a Prot. Paladin this week. Healer composition is a Disc. Priest (item level 497), a Resto. Shaman (myself, item level 490), and a Resto. Druid (item level 482).

I've been topping overall healing done and HPS, with the Resto. Druid in second, and the Disc. Priest in third. Unfortunately, I didn't save any logs, and only have Recount to go off of. Our Spirit Kings kill resulted in the following HPS and overall healing done:
Resto Shaman - 33.4k (37%)
Resto. Druid - 30.0k (28%)
Disc. Priest - 26.8k (20%)

(I chose this fight because there wasn't too much damage going out for the majority of the encounter; on more damage-heavy fights, the gap between me and the Druid grows, and the Priest remains bottom on throughput.)

The Disc. Priest seems to be using Atonement healing, with Recount listing her top 3 heals as Atonement, Flash Heal, and Divine Aegis.

Why would a Disc. Priest use Atonement healing? What are the advantages/disadvantages of it? Is it normal for Atonement healing to perform throughput-wise as it does in my raid?

Edit: Posting links to blogs/threads about Atonement healing would be appreciated, too.
Edited by Nahuul on 7/17/2013 5:36 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
19325
Since the ilvl you needed to do these raids was 463 - my question is - why 3 healing?

Spirit Kings is very low on healing, and easily 2 healed.

Disc Priest can attonement a lot, and it does decent healing + decent DPS. Without seeing the priest/how they are gemmed/reforged etc - I will say he Disc Priest should ~NOT~ be getting beat by either of you.

Frankly if I was the Priest I would be using bubbles / spirit shell on CD and leave you two nothing to heal............ :P

Also a Disc Priest should NOT flash heal. Sounds like this Priest doesn't know their class very well.
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90 Tauren Shaman
8940
Since the ilvl you needed to do these raids was 463 - my question is - why 3 healing?

The raid group is taking much more damage than they should due to messing up mechanics. For many members, it's their first step into a normal raid, and their first time doing the fights on normal, and mistakes are to be expected. Once we have better group synergy and get a better handle on mechanics, I'll start two-healing.

Disc Priest can attonement a lot, and it does decent healing + decent DPS. Without seeing the priest/how they are gemmed/reforged etc - I will say he Disc Priest should ~NOT~ be getting beat by either of you.

I'd rather not post a link to their armory, out of respect to their privacy. It appears their stat priority is Mastery = Crit > Haste, which isn't what's typically used. I do agree that the Disc. Priest should be topping the meters.

07/17/2013 05:50 AMPosted by Xiata
Frankly if I was the Priest I would be using bubbles / spirit shell on CD and leave you two nothing to heal............ :P

I would do the same. :P

Also a Disc Priest should NOT flash heal. Sounds like this Priest doesn't know their class very well.

Many of our raid members, doing to improperly reacting to mechanics, take a ton of damage. I'm assuming she's trying to emergency heal them?

Come to think of it, she does spend quite a bit of time PvPing. Maybe she's trying to apply that healing style to PvE content?
Edited by Nahuul on 7/17/2013 6:42 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Priest
17600
. It appears their stat priority is Mastery = Crit > Haste


Is correct. Our Mastery and Crit feed one another. Haste breaking for disc is rather low, 3039. Anything beyond that speeds up our casts, but isn't really needed. And that's for an extra tick on renew, a spell disc shouldn't be using.

Your disc, on that fight, should be doing the usual. Shield on the tank on CD (for the rapture proc, otherwise they are OOM and screwed). Casting Penance, Holy Fire, and smite on the current kill target, Prayer of Mending when needed on the tank.

During high inc damage (they need to know if it is incoming ~10 sec before hand) they should pop inner focus (for the 100% crit chance)+ spirit shell and proceed to get 6 PoH's off (3 on each group, + 1 extra if they also have PI).

Basically for this fight, with 3 healers, disc, with 497 ilvl, should be doing their level best to dps as much as they can, as their smite atonement will heal far better better than a flash.

Their heals on recount should be pw:s, atonement, and DA. The order will vary depending on their stats and gear level.

Make sure they have a notifier for rapture (I still have Ingela's Rapture, I like it's in your face set up).

Don't assign them to tank heal if you can avoid it. Any other class is better for that, even holy priest.
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100 Draenei Priest
17600
P.s. Check their enchants.
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
When "too many" healers are brought to aids, or when overgeared healers are brought to raids, Disc priests can sit back, Atonement heal, and pick their noses ;)

Now, if she's never raided on a Disc priest in Cata/MoP, then she may legitimately not know how to perform. Certainly, as Xiata and you are saying, SS/PW:S should form a larger part of her healing than Atonement on any fight, especially post-5.2, if she's healing "the way she needs to heal when the content matters more".

She should *probably* be talented for Mindbender, and be using it at about 90% mana and then on cooldown thereafter.

She should definitely be casting Holy Fire on cooldown to stack Evangelism.

She shouldn't be using Smite much (I mean, in this content, she *can* but if she needs practice learning how to Disc heal she should start avoiding Smite now) unless it's a damage modifier fight (like Elegon); Smite should be reserved for times of lower incoming damage if there's time to spare before she needs to start pre-shielding with SS/PW:S.

She *can* use Penance offensively for Atonement, but honestly, if Flash Heal is one of her top heals because of the damage patterns you're describing... she should be using Penance in its place as much as she can.

She should be using Inner Focus with PoH every SS... or if she *has* to use it while SS is on cooldown, she should definitely be trying to use it with PoH.

She can play around with where she uses Archangel - definitely with SS if she's got SS time left after AoE damage has started eating through her pre-shielded Shells.

She should probably be taking PI, though she might not be able to get enough Haste yet for her to squeeze an extra PoH cast during PI, which is the biggest benefit that talent can provide for a Disc priest.

PW:S isn't as beefy as it used to be in Cata, but it's still a *highly* effective Disc tool anytime the priest knows someone is likely to take 70k+ damage within the next 15 sec. She should be getting into the habit of babysitting her DBM timers so she can know when to pre-shield effectively with SS and/or PW:S.

Even if she feels lost as to when to use Pain Suppression & PW:B, she should use them every fight (preferably multiple times). Ask her to think over fight mechanics before the pull, specifically with PS & PW:B use in mind. If she's not using them, she's never just... going to magically start using them effectively all of a sudden. She has to start somewhere. Let her know that it's ok for them to be used "not to their best effect" if it means she's starting to remember to include them in her arsenal.

You've mentioned her performance during Spirit Kings, but Gara'jal is a special case for a Disc priest. She should be using PW:S and SS to have the Voodoo Doll tank take as little damage as possible when she's not in the Spirit realm, because unless they've fixed that fight, absorbs cause the Voodoo Doll tank to avoid transferring damage to the other Voodoo Doll targets.
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100 Human Priest
14475
If I recall correctly, Disc Atonement is not OP in non-LFR MSV at relevant gear level, except Elegon because of the damage modifier. Disc was OP back in 5.1 because of 100% DA proc on PoH, which is no longer the case.

Nevertheless, the disc priest probably could have done better with keeping PWS on tanks and popping Archangel and Spirit Shell as much as possible. You may still see Atonement among the top 3 heals. PWS may not be top heals unless she's spamming it.
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100 Draenei Priest
17600
Gara'jal is a special case for a Disc priest. She should be using PW:S and SS to have the Voodoo Doll tank take as little damage as possible when she's not in the Spirit realm, because unless they've fixed that fight, absorbs cause the Voodoo Doll tank to avoid transferring damage to the other Voodoo Doll targets.


Any avoidance by the tanks whatsoever keep transfer from happening, so tanks mitigating their own also has that effect. And absolutely, on Gara'jal, get your evang stacks and go to town on SS as soon as voodoo goes out. Again, I'd pair it with PoH, not GH, just because, why not?

But you underestimate how much atonement you should be doing. Atonement should certainly be getting used as much as possible. For a few reasons.

Give your other healer(s) something to heal.

It's a smart heal that generally does as much as flash AND can proc DA.

Penance is an AoE heal if used offensively. it has 3 pulses on the mob, and castes 3 atonement heals, which may all go to the tank if needed, or may split to 3 different players if needed. Again, ALL with the chance to proc DA.

Higher crit= MORE DA, and higher mastery= BIGGER DA. Hence stat priority.

SS on cd isn't always a good idea. Later fights (such as Magaera) need it for rampage. I can't stress enough that SS is not an "on cd" tool. It should be used every fight, for certain, and multiple times, but NOT "on CD". It's our tranq, divine hymn, soul link, etc. It requires a ramp up to be effective, knowledge of the fight, etc.

Pw:B should also be used multiple times in most fights, and if the raid isn't stacked, use it as a tank CD.
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100 Draenei Priest
17600
If I recall correctly, Disc Atonement is not OP in non-LFR MSV at relevant gear level, except Elegon because of the damage modifier. Disc was OP back in 5.1 because of 100% DA proc on PoH, which is no longer the case.


Yea, but the disc they said has 497, not relevant gear level at all :-)

They do need to take better care of their gear. Multiple enchants and gem issues. :-/
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90 Night Elf Priest
9895
All of you are failing to realize, even logs and recount cannot calculate when phased.
There is also a range limit on combat logs so if you are standing far enough apart you will not get the combat log information for them either.

This is due to those players not showing up on your logs at that point.

so you will see only the healing that happens when you are not phase and they are not phased.

for Garajal the meters and logs should not matter as long as you are downing him. no one can get the full 100% logs due to the phasing and the logs not collecting data for that.

i am sure every healer is showing that they are top healer for that fight on their own logs.

happy hunting and keep at the raid.
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90 Troll Druid
10000
All of you are failing to realize, even logs and recount cannot calculate when phased.
There is also a range limit on combat logs so if you are standing far enough apart you will not get the combat log information for them either.


The OP said that the stats listed for the fight were for Spirit Kings, which has no phasing issues and is in a relatively small area, so range is unlikely to play too much of a factor with messing with logs..
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I really need to see an actual log to make any judgement calls. Yes, the Priest is a bit low for being Disc and on that content, but I don't know why without seeing a log.

Also, Atonement should be high on her list.
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
07/17/2013 08:29 AMPosted by Rauri
But you underestimate how much atonement you should be doing. Atonement should certainly be getting used as much as possible.


Agreed, but you and I differ in what "use as much as is possible" means.

Disc should never be standing still. If you're standing still, you could be Atonement dps/healing. However if this priest is new to the end-game Disc thing, she has literally zero idea of when to use Atonement (outside of Holy Fire on cooldown) and when *not* to use Atonement. New-to-raiding Disc healers almost invariably err on the side of "Smiting more than they should, when they really should be doing something else".

Yes, it's an overgeared 3-healing MSV group, so no, she's not going to magically "see" the fine edge of "squeezing Smites in wherever possible vs being a Smite-spammer". There's going to be a lot of room for Smiting.

Will that help her learn how to deal with raiding in a less over-healed environment? Nope.

Additionally, in situations like Voodoo Dolls, if you're using Penance offensively rather than defensively, and healing Voodoo Doll targets via Atonement, you're losing out on the heals you land being buffed by Grace. I know Grace isn't as important a mechanic in MoP as it was previously, but in this specific situation, where you *know* which targets need the extra healing, and where you *know* those targets are going to continue to need extra healing for a set duration of time... when you're not absorbing the incoming damage, you should be casting buffed heals on them.

The Flash Heal usage Nahuul is reporting suggests she *should* be using Penance as a heal more often. I don't care how good Smite is vs Flash Heal, if she's Flashing, it's because she's scared someone's getting too low and in that situation you do not trust the game to direct an Atonement heal where it's actually needed. You PW:S if the target doesn't already have Weakened Soul, and then you Penance and/or Pain Suppression them as needed. If the damage is eating through those efforts, you Gheal-spam them until Penance is off cooldown, to hope to keep them alive long enough for SoS to eat away at Weakened Soul so you can slip another PW:S on them. If Gheals aren't landing fast enough, and Weakened Soul is still active, and Penance is on cooldown, you hope to hell that Fheal-spam will keep them up until WS drops and you can get another shield on them. You potentially Void Shift them if your own health is relatively stable. Agreed, that if PW:B isn't necessary for an upcoming mechanic, it can and should be used as a tank CD.

Also agreed that SS on cooldown generally isn't a good idea. If anything I said in my first response indicates that it should be part of Disc's standard strategy, I apologize for leaving people with that suggestion.

[edit: hahahahaha, said ToT instead of SoS up there... /shakes head sadly at self]
Edited by Ellarix on 7/17/2013 4:02 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
11640
Here's my Wrath/Cata main, on whom I mostly don't raid in MoP.

Geedge@Malygos is my co-healer. He literally doesn't stick his nose into any out-of-game info, so when he said he was going to move to a Disc priest for MoP I knew I was going to stay up-to-date on Disc to keep him on the right track.

We're doing a *lot* better than we did when he was on his druid in Cata, when there was no one else to keep him educated & look at his logs to help him improve ;)
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100 Troll Druid
6545
It's kinda sad that as soon as you posted that you were 3-healing MSV with those iLvls and explained that it was because your team was messing up mechanics, I immediately assumed you were from Moon Guard (I play there most of the time). Lols, we have a terrible reputation.
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90 Tauren Shaman
8940
Lots of good advice here. Based on what I've read here and on Icy Veins, she's having gear issues and rotational issues as well.

Thank you all for your advice. It's greatly appreciated. :)

It's kinda sad that as soon as you posted that you were 3-healing MSV with those iLvls and explained that it was because your team was messing up mechanics, I immediately assumed you were from Moon Guard (I play there most of the time). Lols, we have a terrible reputation.

Well, the only thing we're really known for is Goldshire. :P
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100 Night Elf Priest
8950
If flash heal is one of their top 3 healing spells, they will not be able to keep up in healing because they are likely running out of mana during the fight.

It sounds like a few things are going on.

- Bad mechanics from DPS causing the priest to panic and use FH
- Priest is panicking and using FH instead of shield + pennance or gheal if penance on cd.

It's very unnerving at times to be a healer. There is pressure on us to keep people alive even when they make mistakes that can cause a raid wipe. This can cause healers to panic and use the wrong spells. Help your priest understand that FH is an expensive use of their mana for minimal return. In all likelihood if they shield someone who is low, the other 2 healers are already casting a heal that will help keep that person up (and shield is a lot faster than casting a heal). For Disc, shield can be as good if not better than a heal in many situations.

It's hard for some people to get used to Disc since all other healers watch the big green bar move up to full whereas Disc tends to protect the target from going down. Once your priest gets used to that fact and gets their spell priority down better, I'm sure they will be at the top of healing.

I think you've seen some good advice from some really good priests in this thread and hopefully it will help them out.

I should also state that SS on cd is not a good idea (imo). It should be tactically used when big raid wide damage is going to happen. Using it when not a lot of damage is going on just because it's on cd is a waste. DBM is a Disc Priest's friend.

Good Luck
Edited by Docholywood on 7/18/2013 11:44 AM PDT
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90 Troll Priest
12105

The Disc. Priest seems to be using Atonement healing, with Recount listing her top 3 heals as Atonement, Flash Heal, and Divine Aegis.

Why would a Disc. Priest use Atonement healing? What are the advantages/disadvantages of it? Is it normal for Atonement healing to perform throughput-wise as it does in my raid?

Edit: Posting links to blogs/threads about Atonement healing would be appreciated, too.


Everything everyone else has posted has merit. By all means, listen to them.

That said, I'll chop up your OP and hit on a few things that I am curious about.

Am I the only one that wonders why Flash Heal is in the top 3 heals? It has its uses, sure, but, to beat out prayer of healing, shield, greater heal... I don't get it (unless when he said DA he also meant PoH). Depending on the fight, I even have prayer of mending beating out Flash. Might just be me... /shrug

Why should disc use atonement, Vear edition:

1. Single target damage period
2. Because it is a Disc priest
3. Light Aoe damage phase
4. Because it is a Disc priest
5. Boss has damage modifier (Elegon, Horri)
6. Because it is a Disc priest
7. Spirit Shield on cooldown
8. Boredom
9. Because it is a Disc priest
10. Burn phase and every bit of dps counts
11. Did I mention because it is a disc priest

Seriously, atonement is as much a part of disc healing as Chakras are to Holy priests. Not using it is as much as tying one hand behind you back. Dps benefits aside, ensuring you have Archangel on hand for heavy hitter periods can be a game changer. Archangel being a stacking +healing buff that atonement gives discs priests. The only real disadvantage is juggling mana at lower gear levels, where too much smite-healing may suck you dry faster than intended. That is a learning curve issue that disc priests will usually work out for themselves over time; when to smite and when not to.
Edited by Vear on 7/18/2013 9:23 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
It's kinda sad that as soon as you posted that you were 3-healing MSV with those iLvls and explained that it was because your team was messing up mechanics, I immediately assumed you were from Moon Guard (I play there most of the time). Lols, we have a terrible reputation.


Hey...I'm from Moon Guard. They even have a 13/13 guild there! :-P
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100 Tauren Warrior
9915
Then you should be well aware of pornshire.

Erm... I mean the server's rep for RP. >.>
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