Anyone think that monk are OP in PvE raids ?

I'm curious about what the none monk think MW monk ?
Edited by Ishak on 7/23/2013 6:19 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
12920
I've honestly never met a good one before. I don't know why either. All I know is their mana is too good but I don't see them as being outlandishly powerful.
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I've honestly never met a good one before. I don't know why either. All I know is their mana is too good but I don't see them as being outlandishly powerful.


Yeah I'd have to agree myself. It's probably just because I'm still bad at monk healing and am used to every other class' healing quite literally, but very rarely am I above 3rd most heals in LFR.

But it's also highly up to player performance.
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90 Gnome Monk
7335
They have really good mana regen, are decent in 10man, and blow 25m out of the water, but they're not op. They aren't really a "tank healer" as they are a "group healer."

And in PvE, as I believe it is for DPS, Tanking, and Healing alike, as long as you're all working together for a common goal, that's what counts. Who cares if one healers numbers are slightly above the others if you're performing as best as you can.

Looking at World of Logs, I see a large variety of healers.
Edited by Elv on 7/23/2013 9:18 PM PDT
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My concern is if Monk aren't overpowered with the ability to skip spirit in order to get stats that increase our HPS.

If were nerfed in a way to force us to reforge out of + HPS stats in order to get enough mana regen, it will hurt us bad.
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100 Human Paladin
12920
My concern is if Monk aren't overpowered with the ability to skip spirit in order to get stats that increase our HPS.

If were nerfed in a way to force us to reforge out of + HPS stats in order to get enough mana regen, it will hurt us bad.


Good thing Blizzard confirmed that won't be happening this patch. Expect a rework in 5.5/6.0 to your mana but for now it's too large of a task to change in the expansion.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12790
Just out of curiosity, why do monks do so well in 25 mans? I've only done LFR, which doesn't require a ton of skill, and I don't run recount or any other HPS logging addons, so I have no idea how I'm doing. I'm just wondering what skills specifically lend themselves to 25 mans..?
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10235
Just out of curiosity, why do monks do so well in 25 mans? I've only done LFR, which doesn't require a ton of skill, and I don't run recount or any other HPS logging addons, so I have no idea how I'm doing. I'm just wondering what skills specifically lend themselves to 25 mans..?


It's more so on aoe fights... RnM.. TFT.. And uplift.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
Just out of curiosity, why do monks do so well in 25 mans? I've only done LFR, which doesn't require a ton of skill, and I don't run recount or any other HPS logging addons, so I have no idea how I'm doing. I'm just wondering what skills specifically lend themselves to 25 mans..?


ReM, TfT, Uplift, Chi Brew and Chi Burst should do almost all of the 25 man work, although that will mostly translate to ReM and Uplift with a dash of Chi Burst, maybe some Chi Torpedo too?

There's also less of a need for them to focus on single target healing in 25 man (which they are probably the worst healer at when LC is on CD) since so many other healers can, so their major weakness isn't as big of a deal there.
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
There's also less of a need for them to focus on single target healing in 25 man (which they are probably the worst healer at when LC is on CD) since so many other healers can, so their major weakness isn't as big of a deal there.


This is the big reason monks shine in 25s much more than in 10s. Since almost every 25 man will have a paladin or shaman to handle the tank healing it allows the monks to focus solely on aoe healing which is extremely strong for us.

Tank healing is by far the weakest aspect of our tool set, in large part because we have no real big bomb heal. Enveloping heals for a decent amount but I still think the nerf it took in 5.1 was far too much and left it lacking. It would help a small bit if multiple casts stacked instead of overwriting but it is still far and away the weakest "big heal" of any healing spec. Healing spheres need some sort of change to allow you to cast them at a player directly instead of having to deal with a targeting reticule to be useful on a consistent basis, particularly in 25 man or high movement situations.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12245
I've honestly never met a good one before. I don't know why either. All I know is their mana is too good but I don't see them as being outlandishly powerful.


It isn't that our mana is too good, its that our spells that cost mana are too bad. The only thing I ever spend my mana on is Renewing Mists and maybe 15-16 surging mists on average (Most of these are overheal casts used to generate chi before an AoE damage spike), excluding my cooldowns that is. If the new Rushing Jade Wind ends up worth using you should see monks finishing fights with under 90% mana.

I'm curious about what the none monk think MW monk ?

Monks are in a pretty decent place. They aren't dominating all of the other healers but they definitely are not at the bottom if played right. Monks take a lot more getting used to than the other healing classes because of our massive amount of spells and utility and our dependance on the RNG for Chi (not so much if you go the spirit route to use surging mists for on-demand chi like me). Our secondary stats could stand to be made more appealing though. Mastery is pretty bad when nobody wants to step on the orbs and you can't get enough crit this expansion to make a noticeable increase in healing, and then there is haste *shudder*. To me spirit is by far the most appealing stat, even more so than Intellect until about 13.8k when you start to see it get diminished.

07/24/2013 07:33 PMPosted by Linnelle
There's also less of a need for them to focus on single target healing in 25 man (which they are probably the worst healer at when LC is on CD) since so many other healers can, so their major weakness isn't as big of a deal there.


This is the big reason monks shine in 25s much more than in 10s. Since almost every 25 man will have a paladin or shaman to handle the tank healing it allows the monks to focus solely on aoe healing which is extremely strong for us.

Tank healing is by far the weakest aspect of our tool set, in large part because we have no real big bomb heal. Enveloping heals for a decent amount but I still think the nerf it took in 5.1 was far too much and left it lacking. It would help a small bit if multiple casts stacked instead of overwriting but it is still far and away the weakest "big heal" of any healing spec. Healing spheres need some sort of change to allow you to cast them at a player directly instead of having to deal with a targeting reticule to be useful on a consistent basis, particularly in 25 man or high movement situations.


Healing Spheres actually makes a pretty effective spell for tank healing. Sure it isn't a huge heal but it is cheap and you are only limited by the GCD, unfortunately it doesn't generate Chi. We definitely aren't the best tank healers in the game but if played right we can handle the task fairly well.
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100 Pandaren Monk
11630
MW is OP in spread AOE healing.
MW can solo AOE kill many mobs at the same time, reach 100k++ dps, other class healers are impossible to do that.
MW can solo many old raid content.
MW dps is higher than Tank (when vengeance is low).
MW can top DPS in H dungeon.
Edited by Xingling on 7/24/2013 10:04 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
12245
Monk only OP in spread AOE healing.


A good resto shaman or holy priest can do as much AOE healing, for a while at least. A monks sustained AoE is just crazy and that is the main reason we do so well this expansion.
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100 Pandaren Monk
11630
MW spread AOE healing don need to move, just stand there, casting RM, TFT, UPLIFT etc.
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100 Pandaren Monk
10645
Our throughput can be absolutely insane.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990

Healing Spheres actually makes a pretty effective spell for tank healing. Sure it isn't a huge heal but it is cheap and you are only limited by the GCD, unfortunately it doesn't generate Chi. We definitely aren't the best tank healers in the game but if played right we can handle the task fairly well.


It's a decent spell for what it does, but quite frankly we are still the worst tank healers in the game as far as I'm concerned. The orbs are extremely clunky to use, will sabotage Tea stacks if used over Chi generators, and Surging Mist is so expensive it can even OOM a geared Heroic raider if they don't abuse the LMG proc. Plus, no DR CD, and if the tank has to move on a regular basis orbs are extremely unreliable.

But beyond all that, our raid healing is top notch in just about every conceivable scenario right now. Why give that up for tank healing when the kit of literally any other spec would, at the bare minimum, match our capabilities in that regard (and usually exceed them) given equal skill? I'm sure MW can help someone in a pinch with a Life Cocoon or a Soothing channel or something, but not taking advantage of that amazing raid healing seems quite a waste. "Worst tank healer" doesn't mean we are totally incapable of healing the tanks at all (one spec will always have to be the worst at it), but our kit speaks for itself pretty well.
Edited by Thaimaishu on 7/25/2013 1:21 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10235
MW is OP in spread AOE healing.
MW can solo AOE kill many mobs at the same time, reach 100k++ dps, other class healers are impossible to do that.
MW can solo many old raid content.
MW dps is higher than Tank (when vengeance is low).
MW can top DPS in H dungeon.


The heroic dungeon part isn't saying much when most mw are geared and out dosing a fresh 90 or a baddie. When I have a dps anywhere near my ilvl and knows how to play I look tiny next them.
Being higher then tank in dps.. The same could be said about disc priests.
Personally I like having nice aoe healing considering we lack on single target.. That's called balance.
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100 Pandaren Monk
11630
HS is quite good in tank healing, but to place it under tank is really hard during raid.
If Bliz make it can be targeted to other ppl, then HS become very OP cos it is cheap but heal a lot.
I use HS only for self heal, and during Durumu maze phase cos that time all people is moving, they will surely move over my HS.
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100 Pandaren Monk
17700
Monks are quite capable of pushing out some very strong numbers even with them breaking Jab, Jab, Uplift. As has been said before our single target healing is lackluster but we've got significant aoe throughput that is hard to beat (especially in spread situations).

It isn't that our mana is too good, its that our spells that cost mana are too bad. The only thing I ever spend my mana on is Renewing Mists and maybe 15-16 surging mists on average (Most of these are overheal casts used to generate chi before an AoE damage spike)


Have you really looked at what we have that costs mana?
Soothing mists (cheap channeled chi generator)
Surging Mists (fast expensive heal)
RnM
Expel Harm
Healing Spheres
Spinning Crane Kick
Jab
Crackling Jade Lightning

Out of all these, the most useless is Crackling Jade Lightning and Surging Mists (outside of LMG procs or emergency situations which is what its for). All these other spells have a use and are tied into the use of our chi abilities. Saying our mana costing abilities are bad is really a silly thing, and even using surging mists for the reason of generating chi WHILE willing causing overheal is entirely silly. You're better off planning better for the coming burst damage than throwing away your mana pool.

our dependance on the RNG for Chi (not so much if you go the spirit route to use surging mists for on-demand chi like me).


My next point here, you have two guranteed chi generators that you should be using on cooldown: Expel Harm and Renewing mists. You should supplement this ideally with soothing mists or SCK if you're grouped up. Stacking spirit to use surging mists isn't a terribly effective gearing strategy and you're sacrificing a lot of throughput to use a spell which you've said yourself you use mostly to the effect of overheal. This again falls under planning for damage better.

Our secondary stats could stand to be made more appealing though. Mastery is pretty bad when nobody wants to step on the orbs and you can't get enough crit this expansion to make a noticeable increase in healing, and then there is haste *shudder*. To me spirit is by far the most appealing stat, even more so than Intellect until about 13.8k when you start to see it get diminished.


Stacking spirit as a mistweaver really isn't that big a deal. At early gearing levels (Pre-MSV/HoF/ToES 5-7k) spirit you can simply add in more down time when there's less healing needed (work with your co-healers) although most people don't hit actual raids now a days until around 470-480 range due to how lfrs work. You'll probably be rocking close to 8k spirit without gemming or doing anything crazy to get it. Playing well will make it so you don't need a large amount of spirit. Intellect will ALWAYS trump spirit. If you're ending a fight with a ton of mana you waste a crap load of stats. And unless you're spamming surging mists the entire fight (which is an ineffective playstyle for mistweavers) you have far too much spirit and suggesting others stack spirit to such extreme levels is really silly. We're not holy priests, we're mistweaver monks.

you can't get enough crit this expansion to make a noticeable increase in healing


Outside of our haste break points crit is our strongest secondary stat and we have so many HoTs ticking so fast, and uplift hits so many people this turns out to be a lot of throughput. The chance to generate extra chi is just icing on the cake. Getting more crit is solid for mistweavers and discrediting how much we can get because the healing isn't "noticeable" is silly. It interacts with our mana regen and is a complete throughput increase.

then there is haste *shudder*


Haste is an amazing stat for mistweavers to our breakpoints. Mistweaver monks scale amazingly well with haste due to the 50% bonus we get from Stance of the Wise Serpent. This allows us to reach haste breakpoints that would be unreasonable until the final tier of gearing. The two that all mistweaver monks for this tier should be aware of are the 3145 and 6141 breakpoints (while in tiger stance). These give us an extra tick of renewing mists which is even more valuable considering our 2 piece.
Now add in that trinkets this tier (aside from valor) and the LMG are all RPPM which all scale off haste aka, the more haste you have the more often it procs. This is incredibly strong for Horridon's Last Gasp and the LMG. Saying haste is a bad stat for monks is simply ignorant.
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100 Tauren Druid
9805
07/23/2013 06:27 AMPosted by Ipitydafoo
I've honestly never met a good one before.


This.
That is skewed as I am a Resto Druid and we fill same role, thus, unless were desperate for a pug, we won't be bringing a monk.

All I know is their mana is too good but I don't see them as being outlandishly powerful.


My monk is only 496, the heals feel good for ilvl appropriate content, maybe a tad OP.

I think the real issue is I see them being way, far and away OP at high gear levels. This is mainly due to the legendary meta gem granting them so much mana, making spirit undesirable and thus boosting the crap out of all other stats far and away more than other classes can do.
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