Anyone think that monk are OP in PvE raids ?

90 Pandaren Monk
8130
We have the strongest burst healing in the game, some of the fastest reaction to healing (precasting is the only way to get close), and by far dominate spread healing (no one gets close, sustained or burst.)
We're also amazing at stack healing when it comes to burst (pretty strong sustained too). AKA Megaera.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10235
07/25/2013 06:55 AMPosted by Tonydanza
I've honestly never met a good one before.


This.
That is skewed as I am a Resto Druid and we fill same role, thus, unless were desperate for a pug, we won't be bringing a monk.

All I know is their mana is too good but I don't see them as being outlandishly powerful.


My monk is only 496, the heals feel good for ilvl appropriate content, maybe a tad OP.

I think the real issue is I see them being way, far and away OP at high gear levels. This is mainly due to the legendary meta gem granting them so much mana, making spirit undesirable and thus boosting the crap out of all other stats far and away more than other classes can do.


The LMG does make spirit undesirable.. Spirit makes spirit undesirable. You should take a monk sometime so u can see how "op" they are. Dropping spirit keeps us competitive.. Op no.
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90 Tauren Druid
8435

Dropping spirit keeps us competitive.. Op no.


So MW inc nerfs are just for fun? ok.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
10805
I generally beat the 520 Disc I raid with, but I'm not sure if I'm good, he's bad, disc is bad, MW is good, or a combination of any of the 4.
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100 Draenei Shaman
12725
I generally beat the 520 Disc I raid with, but I'm not sure if I'm good, he's bad, disc is bad, MW is good, or a combination of any of the 4.


You're good/great
He's bad/not great
MW is great
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90 Pandaren Monk
12245
Please for the love of god don't blindly call somebody out. There is this button when you click my name that says profile. If you were to click it you could see that I'm not a complete moron. Soothing Mists has such a low mana cost that when you are raid geared you should have more than enough spirit to make it seem as if it doesnt cost anything in the first place and did I not mention Renewing Mists and Surging Mists in the part that you quoted? Healing Spheres and SCK have such a low priority in our lineup of spells that they aren't even worth mentioning and jab really isn't worth it unless fistweaving or if you need Chi and surging isn't fast enough to give it to you. You should also really do your research. Crackling Jade Lightning actually does more healing than Soothing Mists if you don't needed the targetted healing that soothing mists allows and produces the exact same amount of chi.
The rest of your argument is the rambling of a min/maxer. I will play the game how I want to and as long as I can put out the required healing then who cares, but I will bite.
You are assuming that I don't grasp the basics of a mistweaver. I use Renewing on CD and Expel harm as needed, I am not going to pointlessly cast a heal on myself just for 1 chi when my time would be best used healing somebody else regardless of the fact that it gives me chi, however the new glyph for it next patch is extremely appealing. Taking 700+ spirit over the under 1% crit I would get otherwise is an extremely effective gearing strategy. The faster that Chi builds the sooner I can cast uplift, I chose a guaranteed uplift rather than a chance at crits. Intellect does not always trump Spirit. up until the soft cap of spirit 190 spirit is worth around 100 intellect and if you would look at our intellect scaling on renewing mists and uplift it is a complete joke. Obviously I do have the haste breakpoints so that was a complete waste of time for you to say, you could have easily found this out by looking at my profile. I'll turn one of your earlier arguements against you here. WE have so many HoTs and AoE heals going out that increased haste means absolutely nothing for proc based trinkets. They are almost always going to proc as soon as they can.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
9715
I heal with an awesome MW right now. I've been used to playing with middle of the road/bad ones so healing with him at first really made me second guess my abilities on those aoe heavy fights.

It takes a lot of effort and good RNG to keep up on aoe intensive fights such as heroic iron qon or megaera 25 man with our monk and even then I haven't quite been able to. The burst healing is just nuts, and better yet it's sustained. Couple that with MW monks being classified as melee and have the ability to ignore ranged specific mechanics.....you get a really incredibly strong raid healer when placed in the hands of a good player.
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100 Draenei Shaman
12725
Couple that with MW monks being classified as melee and have the ability to ignore ranged specific mechanics.....you get a really incredibly strong raid healer when placed in the hands of a good player.


If this is true then that's some bull!@#$...
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
07/25/2013 12:40 PMPosted by Elíka
Couple that with MW monks being classified as melee and have the ability to ignore ranged specific mechanics.....you get a really incredibly strong raid healer when placed in the hands of a good player.


If this is true then that's some bull!@#$...


It's true to an extent and it's not b.s.. We are designed to be in melee range punching things. Not being classified as a melee when doing so would be horribly unfair. In many cases we are susceptible to "ranged only" type abilities if we are not actually in melee range when they are used.
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90 Draenei Monk
11275
07/25/2013 12:55 PMPosted by Linnelle


If this is true then that's some bull!@#$...


It's true to an extent and it's not b.s.. We are designed to be in melee range punching things. Not being classified as a melee when doing so would be horribly unfair. In many cases we are susceptible to "ranged only" type abilities if we are not actually in melee range when they are used.


This basically sums it up.

@Sacredmists your playstyle may work for you, but encouraging others to gear badly and use a playstyle that is gimping your hps is not welcome here.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
Not being classified as a melee when doing so would be horribly unfair


*cough* SoI
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17270
So MW inc nerfs are just for fun? ok.


The monk "nerfs" are being done in an attempt to force monks to want spirit, not because monks are completely overpowered.

I mean, they're not being done because Blizzard realized that they wouldn't be effective so they're reverting them all.

If you look at overall data, monks are on around the level of disc priests and resto druids, slightly below holy priests, and above shaman and paladin. Monks are not at all close to really OP or anything to the sort. Blizzard just wants us to use more spirit than we do, even though there's no real reason for it.

@Sacredmists your playstyle may work for you, but encouraging others to gear badly and use a playstyle that is gimping your hps is not welcome here.


I looked at his armory and decided to ignore everything he said so, I'll let Eiko handle this one. But dumping everything into spirit and forgoing breakpoints, crit, AND mastery is the most misguided thing I have ever seen in this game, and I've seen a lot.
Edited by Mist on 7/25/2013 1:44 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
15480
even though there's no real reason for it.


Reason as i see it is that you have no fear of resource management. Nothing more than that. I don't personally believe that MW are OP when it comes to throughput, but once you have your head around the class resource management no longer exists.

edit: not saying that you don't have to think about chi, so not saying that it is brainless. But it is pretty easy to pool for a double uplift if you plan it out.
Edited by Taelaus on 7/25/2013 1:45 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17270
Reason as i see it is that you have no fear of resource management. Nothing more than that. I don't personally believe that MW are OP when it comes to throughput, but once you have your head around the class resource management no longer exists.


Resource management is our entire class, if you consider chi our primary resource and mana our secondary resource which is how most of us play the game.

Everything we do is to optimize chi usage and spending.

It's really easy to screw this up as well, forcing us to oom and severely crippling our healing.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
07/25/2013 01:45 PMPosted by Mist
Everything we do is to optimize chi usage and spending.


Agreed, how i worded it can be misunderstood. Was more along the lines of you can build your chi at a reasonable pace where you are not really chi starved.
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100 Pandaren Monk
16640
07/25/2013 11:08 AMPosted by Sacridmists
Please for the love of god don't blindly call somebody out. There is this button when you click my name that says profile. If you were to click it you could see that I'm not a complete moron.


I did check your profile before (mostly was curious how you were gemming and what breakpoint you were at). I'm aware of your progression and I've looked at your logs as well. I'm not blindly saying things to piss you off, I'm trying to correct some of the misconceptions about the class that you have.

did I not mention Renewing Mists and Surging Mists in the part that you quoted? Healing Spheres and SCK have such a low priority in our lineup of spells that they aren't even worth mentioning and jab really isn't worth it unless fistweaving or if you need Chi and surging isn't fast enough to give it to you.


I was more miffed that you were using surging (aside from the fact you used it outside of emergency situations at all) to the effect of overheal. An expensive spell such as that is flat out wasted to generate chi. If you don't need the heal (i.e. its not an emergencey) use soothing to generate your chi. Healing spheres really is a niche thing though and I've really only found use for it (in 10 mans at that) on fights like Lei Shi where there's basically no other damage going out for long periods of time.

You should also really do your research. Crackling Jade Lightning actually does more healing than Soothing Mists if you don't needed the targetted healing that soothing mists allows and produces the exact same amount of chi.


Crackling jade lightning is more expensive, ticks less for the duration of its channel (5 times vs soothing's 12 times), and suffers from not having RNG protection (when soothing mists fails to generate chi its chance is increased by 15% which remains even if you begin a new channel). Add to this that as soon as you cast soothing you get an instant heal (chance to get chi) and you'll have a tick before the GCD is up (another chance). If you were REALLY tried for chi you can simply spam soothing on the GCD and you'll have far better chi generation as well as the spot healing from it and your statue.

The rest of your argument is the rambling of a min/maxer. I will play the game how I want to and as long as I can put out the required healing then who cares
Playing how you want to play is fine. Encouraging others or telling others its better to play using a gimped set up is not fine.

I use Renewing on CD and Expel harm as needed, I am not going to pointlessly cast a heal on myself just for 1 chi when my time would be best used healing somebody else regardless of the fact that it gives me chi, however the new glyph for it next patch is extremely appealing.


Renewing Mists on CD is what you're supposed to do, correct. Expel Harm on cd because its an incredibly cheap and reliable chi generator. Think of the healing it does as icing on the cake because I don't rely on it for its healing. Yes the new glyph is going to be awesome and I can't wait for it. It'll make expel harm an even better ability.

Taking 700+ spirit over the under 1% crit I would get otherwise is an extremely effective gearing strategy. The faster that Chi builds the sooner I can cast uplift, I chose a guaranteed uplift rather than a chance at crits.


You're talking about a throughput stat vs a regen stat. The regen stat you have most likely too much of. Spamming soothing mists inbetween renewing mist and expel harm cds should be more than sufficient for what you're doing. Mabye SCK if y'all are grouped together.

Intellect does not always trump Spirit. up until the soft cap of spirit 190 spirit is worth around 100 intellect and if you would look at our intellect scaling on renewing mists and uplift it is a complete joke.


I'd really like to see your math on this. I have a very difficult time believing that flat out increasing the throughput (don't forget int also gives crit) of your top two spells is "a complete joke".

Obviously I do have the haste breakpoints so that was a complete waste of time for you to say, you could have easily found this out by looking at my profile. I'll turn one of your earlier arguements against you here. WE have so many HoTs and AoE heals going out that increased haste means absolutely nothing for proc based trinkets. They are almost always going to proc as soon as they can.


You're above (not by so much its really a big deal) the 3145 haste breakpoint. In your gear level the 6141 haste breakpoint should be what you're aiming for. What does this breakpoint do?
1) An extra tick of Renewing mists
2) An extra tick of Enveloping Mists
3) Increases the frequency of HLG proccing (coincidentally your LMG when you get it as well)
4) Increases the value of the T15 MW two piece
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17270
usage should be generation but too late for that, woops.

The entire thing, however, is that it's still possible to oom if played poorly, or if it's just an intensive fight. It's hard if you're a good player, but it's possible. Chi management is very, very crucial to playing well. It takes more than just pooling chi and whatnot.

There's a close balance you have to maintain between offensive and defensive playstyles.

And when you get into overall throughput, monks do not overshadow anyone, we are in line with pretty much every other AOE healer.

At the end of the day, the entire problem stems from Blizzard wanting spirit to be equally important to every class, and while I understand the sentiment, I don't feel it necessary at all.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
At the end of the day, the entire problem stems from Blizzard wanting spirit to be equally important to every class, and while I understand the sentiment, I don't feel it necessary at all.


I find it a bit odd how Chi resembles HoPo but are treated very differently. Maybe that is their problem. It is insane how much mana it takes to generate HoPo. But that is for a different thread.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17270
I think it's because chi is our primary dps and they want us to be able to effectively DPS.
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