RPPM scaling with Runespeed mechanics

90 Worgen Death Knight
16910
Recently a poster on MMO-Champion made a discovery on the PTR: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1325282-So-that-s-why-UH-is-so-much-better-than-frost

For those that aren't familiar with Death Knight mechanics, the Runic Corruption talent differs from both Blood Tap and Runic Empowerment in that it speeds up Rune Regen greatly when it procs, rather than fully activating a depleted rune.
This find however, seemed to imply that a bug was also causing Runic Corruption to affect RPPM rates: Trinkets such as Feather and Rage, the Capacitative Meta and even our Tier 15 2P.

We discussed this in #Acherus and were unsure if this was a bug solely restricted to the PTR or one that had been present since 5.2 (anecdotal evidence suggested it had, but we wanted more proof).
It also stands to reason that if Runic Corruption is behaving in this way, then Improved Blood Presence and Unholy Presence are likely doing so as well.

Mione (Mioneechan on Kazzak-EU) was kind enough to assemble some parses for us, so full credit to her:

The following are roughly 30 minutes logs of pure autoattacking on training dummies, as Blood spec, one of them being done in Blood Presence and the other in Frost Presence. 30 minutes is obviously not enough to remove the luck factor entirely, but all RPPM effects being significantly lower is more than enough to draw a conclusion.

PTR Blood Presence: 13.5M Fallen Zandalari, 5.3M Flurry of Xuen (13.7% uptime), 25.6% Feathers of Fury, 23.3% Cruelty - http://worldoflogs.com/reports/wxh5sb3mn4vmvoj6/

PTR Frost Presence: 8.5M Fallen Zandalari, 4.5M Flurry of Xuen (11.5% uptime), 23.2% Feathers of Fury, 15.5% Cruel - http://worldoflogs.com/reports/jo5gs17kh43tusj3/

Live Blood Presence: 29.8% Feathers of Fury, 72.7% Rampage - http://worldoflogs.com/reports/4wy99cwu6cap8dco/

Live Frost Presence: 19.4% Feathers of Fury, 66.9% Rampage - http://worldoflogs.com/reports/r93ydzfhq5d27sqf/


This pretty much confirmed what we suspected: The bug is not only real on Live, but has been affecting us from the start.

The implications of this are obvious: Runic Corruption becomes the default talent for any DPS DK since it now also carries a sizeable numbers boost. It's also been a definite contributing factor towards the gap between Unholy and Frost, given that Frost tends to default towards Blood Tap whilst Unholy (Festerblight especially) functions well with Runic Corruption's smoothness.
Mendenbarr's cooked up the exact numbers on Elitist Jerks if anyone is interested.
In addition, once the bug gets fixed in 5.4 (I am assuming you won't hotfix it since the tier is largely over), we'll likely need slight compensation for the DPS drop.

It would be great to get some information on what exactly causes the bug and how it will be resolved. Thanks!
Edited by Magdalena on 7/28/2013 5:50 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
It's on the bug report forum, I checked when it was first reported. Not much else we can do about it except hope we're compensated for performance lost when the bug is fixed.
Edited by Slant on 7/28/2013 5:53 PM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
11390
So basically - chose RC over RE now until 5.4 hits as Frost DK? :D
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90 Human Death Knight
12440
So basically - chose RC over RE now until 5.4 hits as Frost DK? :D


Yep, to paraphrase a friend of mine when dealing with bugs in games.

"Bugs can be weird and cause weird things to happen"
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Community Manager
After some investigation, we found that rune regeneration mechanics were, indeed, giving an unintended increase to RPPM proc rates. Unholy in particular gains a significant performance boost from this bug. We're going to fix the bug, but we'll also be compensating Unholy.

In the next build, Unholy Presence will give pure haste, rather than just attack speed. This will allow it to (legitimately) increase proc rates for RPPM mechanics. Runic Corruption and Improved Blood Presence, however, will no longer have an effect on RPPM proc rates.
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90 Orc Death Knight
10645
but we'll also be compensating Unholy.


That's good to know, thanks for the update.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
07/29/2013 11:20 AMPosted by Lore
We're going to fix the bug, but we'll also be compensating Unholy.

Very much appreciate this response!

Why did you decide against something similar for the 20% rune regen component of Improved Blood Presence? It had the same effect.
Edited by Slant on 7/29/2013 11:36 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7880
Does this mean that the fix won't be done until the patch, and if so runic corruption is by far the best talent now?
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90 Orc Death Knight
10645
Interesting to note, if the UH presence change goes through: the pure haste won't only affect rune regeneration and attack speed. Our Gargoyle will cast more often, and our ghoul will attack more often b/c of higher energy regain and lower attack speed.
Edited by Athdeux on 7/29/2013 11:48 AM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
19415
Not necessarily, pure melee haste does not attack gary's cast time, only spell haste does.

Now we have Spell haste, melee haste, ranged haste, haste from rating, attack speed haste, AND rune regen haste. Not confusing at all.
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90 Orc Death Knight
10645
He never insinuated any of those types of haste. He only suggested pure haste. Which feels like a rather ambiguous response. But hypothetically if it were haste rating, it would effect those two.
Edited by Athdeux on 7/29/2013 11:55 AM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
13905
I recall testing this when RPPM mechanics first appeared, and I'm kind of surprised, because my conclusion at that point was that Unholy Presence was already real haste. It already increases ghoul attack speed (I did not test Gargoyle casts at the time). I certainly always knew that unholy presence increased RPPM, I thought everyone realized this.

If you actually want to compensate DK's for this change, it needs to be something to make up for the biggest bug here, that Runic Corruption is providing more procs, which is currently inflating numbers for DK's as a whole.

Swapping to RC from Blood Tap, I can immediately see a difference. If this has been propping up DK numbers, then once it's fixed we are going to be even further behind in dps than we already are.

EDIT: Real melee haste that is
Edited by Sibyl on 7/29/2013 11:56 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Death Knight
4445
After some investigation, we found that rune regeneration mechanics were, indeed, giving an unintended increase to RPPM proc rates. Unholy in particular gains a significant performance boost from this bug. We're going to fix the bug, but we'll also be compensating Unholy.

In the next build, Unholy Presence will give pure haste, rather than just attack speed. This will allow it to (legitimately) increase proc rates for RPPM mechanics. Runic Corruption and Improved Blood Presence, however, will no longer have an effect on RPPM proc rates.


I think that Blood should be compensated as well. It's a huge nerf to Blood DPS, which is important when soloing and when you're not using two stamina trinkets, which is always the case during progression.

In addition, Blood's DPS in most raiding scenarios is pretty low - a small buff on top of what we have right now certainly wouldn't hurt.
Edited by Valithyria on 7/29/2013 12:06 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Death Knight
14750
While I am glad to see unholy will be compensated, how about compensating frost so it isn't terrible?
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
07/29/2013 11:54 AMPosted by Sibyl
I certainly always knew that unholy presence increased RPPM, I thought everyone realized this.

Initially RPPM scaled with attack speed,. At that point everybody knew it worked with Unholy Presence, since it was supposed to.

Then later on it was changed to only work with "pure" haste from items and bloodlust/heroism, and everybody assumed that Unholy Presence no longer worked with it. It's not trivial to test, and it's not an obvious improvement at only 10%, and that's obviously how it was supposed to function, so we missed it.
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90 Orc Death Knight
13905
We tested it in Acherus, though, and learned that it increased Ghoul attack speed, and assumed therefore that it was real melee haste, and therefor RPPM.

Mag and Mend, am I remembering this incorrectly?

In any case, the RC change is bigger (100% haste increase leads to a boatload of RPPM procs), and is gonna lead to a big impact for any DK that was using Runic Corruption.
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90 Orc Death Knight
10740
Icy Talons could also be made into pure haste to put unholy and frost at the same level.
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90 Orc Death Knight
19415
Haste explained!
http://destinysoftworks.blogspot.com/2013/07/haste-explained.html

And we've made so many assumptions about what effect what type of haste, I've lost track.
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90 Orc Death Knight
13905
I'll try to test it again on live, but my recollection was that UP already gave Melee Haste, so their "compensation" mentioned above is actually nothing.
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90 Orc Death Knight
10740
I doesn't give melee haste it says increases attack speed like Icy Talons and both these and unholy aura are curently not affecting rPPM.
Edited by Kainz on 7/29/2013 12:50 PM PDT
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