Discipline Priests

100 Tauren Priest
20130
First off if you are going to quote GC use the whole post not what just fits your argument cause it just makes you look bad. You completely left out the part where he talks about how disc is getting nerfs in 5.4.

Can you please explain the intention behind decreased duration to ss? Disc seemed balanced in 25 but less so in 10s...
Disc would be balanced with Atonement or good bubbles or good CDs. With all 3, they are too versatile. (Source)
Atonement is fun and we like seeing more PW:S use now than we had in 5.0, so we (gently) hit SS and Rapture. (Source)


Second off don't taste GC word as the end all be all. Notice how he didn't even answer the question that he was trying to address? If he thinks that 25 man is supposed to make up for 5 seconds loss on spirit shell in bubble spamming on top of a rapture nerf and somehow make it balanced with ten man, which btw the SS nerf has almost no effect on what so ever, then it clearly shows how out of tune he is with the class.

And I don't need more button bloat and things to track thanks very much.
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90 Night Elf Priest
5045
Indeed. It's not the raw healing that snuffs out other players, honestly.

I'm not sure how I'd feel about an increase in Smite cost. I can maintain/utilize Archangel pretty well even without Smite. In high damage encounters, I'm really doing other things than smiting generally. Solace/penance usually do the trick, if maybe a smite if I need it. Worse case it to quickly smite x 2-3 to build the stacks up to 5.

With the CD on AA as long as it is, I don't think after all the changes we've already seen, an increase in smite mana cost would really "stick it to us".
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100 Tauren Priest
20130
I'd really just be happy if they gave disc the opportunity to be a healer without using smite holy fire/ offensive and AA rotation again. Blizzard went from introducing it in cata as an alternative healing style with completely viable talents if you chose not to take them, to a falsified and blatant lie in mop saying disc priests that didn't use AA were just as good as disc priests that did and then not even bothering to keep that lie up by putting AA on our 2 piece in the next tier.

It should have remained a talent option that all 3 specs had the choice to utilize or not in that tier.

I hate smite healing, I hate ghost crawler telling me that I should be having fun with it and I hate that blizzard took that choice away from me in mop but I was also hurting my raids in ten man for heroics as a holy priest so /shrug

Sorry on the brighter side the legendary cloak is looking godly on the ptr for holy priests looking to be a out 15-20% of their healing so holy may actually be stronger than disc come next tier as crazy as that sounds so /fingers crossed.
Edited by Rapsidy on 7/28/2013 1:38 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
10315
Atonement use is alot like Mistweaver "fistweaving" right? Blizzard intended for it to be an alternate playstyle, to gain healing and damage, but lose out on potential healing.

Having it on your tier gear is really abyssmal. It would be like Mistweavers having "Your Blackout Kick now increases your haste by 25% for 4 seconds" or something similar for a set bonus. It would punish raw healers and benefit only the fistweavers.

You guys definitely need the guise of choice on that option.

(Also, Rapsidy, are you in debate? good call out back there)
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100 Tauren Priest
20130
(Also, Rapsidy, are you in debate? good call out back there)


No I'm just testy because Ive literally been on the clock since 3 pm Friday afternoon and haven't been home once since then due to being called in for 2 extra emergency shifts this weekend.

Smart phone and 48 hours of straight work = meaner sounding priest than normal. Least I get off at 7 lol.

And the mobile armory has been down the whole weekend as well so I can't even make gold while I've been at work
Edited by Rapsidy on 7/28/2013 1:45 PM PDT
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100 Undead Priest
10430
These are all terrible ideas.

I can't wrap my head around the idea of why you're posting other than some Disc Priest made you look bad on the LFR meters.
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90 Pandaren Monk
10315
Thank you for the constructive criticism.
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100 Undead Priest
10430
No, thank you for the constructive ideas.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
Well what's to be said? Changes like the kind Rapsidy is proposing are beyond the scope of a mid-expansion fix. I agree with him that Disc's reliance on the very boring Atonement playstyle is a problem, but I don't think it's one you can solve without completely revamping the spec.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
So, GC just recently went to bat for discipline priests, and I completely agree with him. They are VERY fun to play, but are overtuned and shields are much more reliable than any other heal. So, here is my proposed solution.

-Retune Power Word: Shield.

Split PWS into two seperate spells. One is Power Word: Wall - This spell absorbs only physical damage and shares a CD with Power Word: Nullification.

Power Word: Nullification: This spell absorbs only magical damage and shares a CD with Power Word: Wall. Both apply the Weakened Soul Debuff. The spell lasts 30 sec or until the shield is broken.

The cooldown of the spells would be six seconds, very similar to Renewing Mist, Holy Shock, and Riptide.

What would this do?

It would cause discipline priests to react pre-emptively like they currently do, but in a smarter way. Currently, discipline priests watch timers to know when to shield, and let the damage come with no second thoughts. With my proposed change, they will have to choose one over the other. Is magical damage more important for this ability? Or is the physical damage from the boss more dangerous?


The fact that you believe this at all is evidence you have never played a healer at a high level, much less a Disc Priest.

-Retune / remove Spirit Shell. Buff Mastery.

Spirit Shell is excellent as a concept. It exchanges the specs healing output for shielding, the niche for disc priests. It lets the class dumb heal, by applying a shield even before damage comes out, and is far too reliable and powerful. Retuning this spell, or even removing it allows the developers to focus on discipline mastery, or a rework to mastery all together. A longer CD on Spirit Shell might work. Another way to retune Spirit Shell is :

While Spirit Shell is active, the priest may now cast Power Word: Wall and Power Word: Nullification regardless of Weakened Soul. All healing done during Spirit shell is applied as additional shields. 20 sec duration, 90 sec cd.


I don't see what this would accomplish at all.

Mastery

- The current mastery buffs absorb and healing both. It is extremely lucrative for disc priests as most of their contribution to the raid is through shielding. My proposed change to mastery is to remove the bonus to raw healing. The new mastery would be:

After casting Power Word: Nullification, the shield of the next Power Word: Wall is increased by X amount.

After casting Power Word: Wall. the shield of the next Power Word: Nullification is increased by X amount.


I just...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zNjQecyjE8

Do you like these concepts? Do you think they are viable? Do you think they would be overpowered or perhaps too confusing? Please post constructively about what you think woiuld be a fun change for Disc priests!


I think your ideas are...absolutely terrible.

Since the only thing you care about is 10 man Normal, I'm just going to be blunt - the only thing I care about is 25 man Heroic. So um...does that mean that everything should be tuned around me, and nothing should be tuned around you? Do you think that would be fair? Or fun for everyone?

I'm going to say this as nicely as I can, because I swear to god, my brain hurts right now: You are basing a lot of your premise on LFR, which isn't a good way to do anything. I can completely shut down everyone in LFR if I am Disc because...well...there's no damage. For that matter, I can completely destroy bad Disc Priests, Druids, Monks...hell, even Pallies...as Holy. Because...I have the regen (and evil will!) to snipe everything. You'll never get a heal off. I'll be there first.

But what you don't get is that LFR doesn't matter. No, really - it doesn't matter. Classes are not balanced around LFR. They're not balanced around 10 man normals, either. They're balanced around 10 man and 25 man heroics. And if you can't keep up with your cohealers as a Monk, I don't know what to tell you. But what I can tell you is that part of your problem probably comes from your gearing, gemming, and enchanting choices, not the fact that "Disc Priests are just too OP!"
Edited by Tiriel on 7/28/2013 4:14 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Priest
20130
Well what's to be said? Changes like the kind Rapsidy is proposing are beyond the scope of a mid-expansion fix. I agree with him that Disc's reliance on the very boring Atonement playstyle is a problem, but I don't think it's one you can solve without completely revamping the spec.


Yeah that's more of a please dear god make it so for the next expansion cause I can't stand to be told that I'm supposed to be having fun smiting by GC. That really annoys me when mop was supposed to be the expansion of choice.

Also these are all game breaking changes. Can't do things like that mid expansion as was pointed out. The biggest complaint right now with the proposed 5.4 changes is that it does nothing to balance the strength of disc in ten man heroics, but it weakens disc in 25 man heroics, who were already fairly balanced provided u didn't stack them, and the reply as to why they were implemented makes absolutely no sense.
Edited by Rapsidy on 7/28/2013 3:06 PM PDT
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
Mastery

- The current mastery buffs absorb and healing both. It is extremely lucrative for disc priests as most of their contribution to the raid is through shielding. My proposed change to mastery is to remove the bonus to raw healing. The new mastery would be:

After casting Power Word: Nullification, the shield of the next Power Word: Wall is increased by X amount.

After casting Power Word: Wall. the shield of the next Power Word: Nullification is increased by X amount.

Ideas like this have historically worked very poorly. When a Mastery affects only a few spells, it has to scale extremely quickly in order to be at least somewhat competitive with Haste or Crit (which is one of Blizzard's basic design goals). Since we're talking about buffing two spells which share a 6 second cooldown and is only effective in certain situations, the scaling would have to be immense.

Adding on to that, in order to actually use the Mastery in several situations (any time the damage is primarily physical or magical), we'd have to waste globals casting a spell that does effectively nothing, then wait 6 seconds to actually cast the spell that does something. On the "plus" side, since the scaling would need to be so high to be competitive with haste and crit, it'd pretty much always be best to rotate between the two, even in situations where there's no physical or no magical damage.

Essentially, what this would do is exaggerate the problem by forcing all our absorbs on to one or two targets at a time, instead of being spread across the raid. You'd see people just not take damage for 15-20 seconds at a time because of the sheer magnitude of the shields we'd be throwing out.
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So an idea that's been tossed about in my guild regarding disc shields and how they operate in the raid environment. Basically, Disc being able to frontload so much shielding can reduced the impact or, in some cases, completely negate mechanics. This isn't a good thing. So the idea is basically:

Complete revamp of how healing based absorb shields work. The concept is that we apply a shield for X amount, but to prevent front loading the shield only absorbs Y damage every time a player takes damage.

So for example, I apply a DA shield of 1000 to each player in a party from PoH, but due to my scaling factor (Y, would probably be mastery) each time a player is struck the absorb takes 300 damage off of the hit, but the absorb remains until the full 1000 damage is taken.

Now this idea has issues. Namely how strong it would be against DoTs or periodic damage. and how potentially weak it would be against huge hits. But it does allow damage to be taken while shielding is up so that other healers have something to do.

In short, healing based shields would act as old block did before the % change.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
So an idea that's been tossed about in my guild regarding disc shields and how they operate in the raid environment. Basically, Disc being able to frontload so much shielding can reduced the impact or, in some cases, completely negate mechanics. This isn't a good thing. So the idea is basically:

Complete revamp of how healing based absorb shields work. The concept is that we apply a shield for X amount, but to prevent front loading the shield only absorbs Y damage every time a player takes damage.

So for example, I apply a DA shield of 1000 to each player in a party from PoH, but due to my scaling factor (Y, would probably be mastery) each time a player is struck the absorb takes 300 damage off of the hit, but the absorb remains until the full 1000 damage is taken.

Now this idea has issues. Namely how strong it would be against DoTs or periodic damage. and how potentially weak it would be against huge hits. But it does allow damage to be taken while shielding is up so that other healers have something to do.

In short, healing based shields would act as old block did before the % change.


The thing is, there is damage. There's plenty of damage to punch through Disc's shields, force them to spam and ultimately hit the hard cap on a Discipline Priests's throughput (and yes, there is one).

But you're never going to see that damage until you hit heroic content or severely underheal encounters with people stupid enough to stand in fire. Until then, you're basically SOL.

But dear god, please do NOT nerf Disc Priests like you want. Please. This would make MY job as HOLY much, much harder in heroic content.
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90 Draenei Priest
8710
No , No , No....
I'm sure i'm not alone when having two different bubbles that absorb magical and physical on the same CD. That would just make it harder.

Again no on mastery changes , i like the idea of having + healing and + bubble on mastery as is. Although i wish they would increase the bubble %. Since we are here to prevent damage and not out heal it.

let me ask you this? do you raid? current content? ...not LFR
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
Personally, I think I'd just like to see changes that give Disc more depth. I'm not sure what it is specifically, but I think part of it is a lot of my throughput is caught up in spells that aren't particularly fun to cast. Or at least not fun any more, given how often I fall back on them.

EDIT: So basically, what I'm saying is if your suggestion doesn't make me go "Ooh, that sounds fun," I'm probably not on board for it.
Edited by Skootalloo on 7/28/2013 5:23 PM PDT
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Split PWS into two seperate spells. One is Power Word: Wall - This spell absorbs only physical damage and shares a CD with Power Word: Nullification.

Power Word: Nullification: This spell absorbs only magical damage and shares a CD with Power Word: Wall. Both apply the Weakened Soul Debuff. The spell lasts 30 sec or until the shield is broken.

You might as well rename PW:Nullification into PW:Useful and rename PW:Wall into PW:You'redoingmorchok or PW:Tanksonly. While it could be interesting if there had to be a choice on what kind of damage the bubble can mitigate, most raid damage leans towards magic damage and not often enough towards physical damage.

- The current mastery buffs absorb and healing both. It is extremely lucrative for disc priests as most of their contribution to the raid is through shielding. My proposed change to mastery is to remove the bonus to raw healing. The new mastery would be:

After casting Power Word: Nullification, the shield of the next Power Word: Wall is increased by X amount.

After casting Power Word: Wall. the shield of the next Power Word: Nullification is increased by X amount.

Again, raid damage tends to catter to one type of damage or another. While we do have encounters where we got both types of damage, not every encounter does (not counting tanks physical damage taken). In any encounter where magic damage is prominent or absolute, or physical damage is, your Mastery idea would fail as there would be not enough cases to make it worth at all.

Choices can be good, but they do not work if the scenarios do not let you make a choice to begin with.
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
07/28/2013 05:48 PMPosted by Korghal
your Mastery idea would fail as there would be not enough cases to make it worth at all.

Or (since it is so limited and all that), it'd always be better to rotate between the two. All the Mastery would have to do is provide a bonus greater than 100% in order for that to be 'ideal'.
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100 Human Priest
8375
I had too much time to think.

Well, you might have better luck thinking about what blizzard can do for the Mistweaver class to make them take spirit, since blizzard thinks that's important too. A good Mistweaver will match or outheal a disc priest any day in relevant content. I'm sure if you shared ideas about a class you understand better, it will be better received.

It was entertaining reading how little you understand about priests though.

07/28/2013 01:16 PMPosted by Naérdriel
Give Holy better mana regen tools.

No.
Edited by Evry on 7/28/2013 6:03 PM PDT
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