Prot Paladin tanking Challenge modes

90 Blood Elf Paladin
9565
I posted this on the tanking forum and only got one reply so I'm curious to see what my class forum has to say on the matter.

Anyways to start off Prot isnt my main spec. But I'm not exactly new to it either. Ive had Prot as a main spec for pve in Cata, and its become an off-off spec in MoP to get into Heroics and LFR quicker. Its really just a pve spec that I play because healing in LFR and Heroics bore me to death (( I stopped progression raiding at TBC due to time constraints )) but I do main Holy PVP and Ret PVP

I tried my first run at Scarlet Halls in challenge mode with my IRL friends yesterday. I spent a few weeks with them running heroics and LFR's to get them PVE geared ( we are mainly a PVP oriented group ) , got them close or at hit/exp cap and figured thats fine considering all our 490-500 ilvl PVE LFR gear gets dropped to 463 anyways. But my first run hurt. Alot.

Pass through the dogs with meat buckets, tanked the archers fine, then tanked the first boss fine. We didnt invis pot through the undeground basement section with the canons due to this run being a test run to see if we're ready but the mobs hurt! I get dropped faster than I can generate holy power to use SotR. The mobs do dis-arm which makes it impossible to block but im just wondering these challenge modes remind me how tough old Heroics were in TBC and back then we had to meet certain stats ( like 3000 healing or something like that ) to ensure a fine dungeon run. Is this kind of damage expected? Or am I gemmed/reforged wrong? Is there a better build for challenge mode specifically?

So basically TL;DR: Whats the best way to build a Prot paladin to be ready for challenge modes?

Our group comp is:
Prot Pala
Holy Pala
Boomkin
Frost mage
Arms warrior

i'm expecting trolls to tell me to roll a DK but no.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20525
It's a hard one, and you really need to do good CC in most challenge modes. Having aoe stuns is a huge help, using CDs every pull is basically mandatory.

You really can't go into challenge modes without having your character set up completely, and remember that you get down scaled so your stats may not work out properly. Easiest way to make sure they're right is to go into one of the challenge modes that you can mount inside the door, and use a reforge mount.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13290
I honestly haven't done any challenge modes myself, but I can tell you based on a) talking to Prot Paladins (and guildmates who play other classes) who have, and b) my knowledge of Prot mechanics:

You still should be Hit/Exp capped for the content. The bosses require the full 7.5% hit/15% expertise, and I believe the trash is level 82 rather than 83 (which would be 6% hit and I think 13% expertise but double check those numbers). I don't know whether the bosses themselves will mandate being capped or if you should just worry about the trash mobs, but Hit/Exp are by far our best survival stats and also increase our damage output by a truckload. They also don't diminish at all in challenge modes, so your reforging stays put.

You really can't go into challenge modes without having your character set up completely, and remember that you get down scaled so your stats may not work out properly. Easiest way to make sure they're right is to go into one of the challenge modes that you can mount inside the door, and use a reforge mount.


Yup.

Also remember that a lot of the guides assume that you have full raid buffs and are in a raid setting with high Vengeance attack power, which would naturally mean that getting more attack power from Strength wouldn't mean a lot. In challenge modes, I think using a Strength flask and food is actually a really good idea - not only does it add a ton of damage, but the combination of parry and the defensive benefits of attack power (extra healing from Seal of Insight + Word of Glory, and bigger Sacred Shield ticks) isn't bad.

You should also consider swapping out higher lilvl but poorly itemized pieces of gear for lower ilvl but better itemized pieces, although pieces of gear with sockets generally win out since gems never get scaled down. Your meta gem choice is bad too - use the armor one. And obviously, enchant your stuff, and aim for trinkets with stats like haste or hit/expertise that would allow you to gain more haste elsewhere :-P
Edited by Tailias on 7/28/2013 10:53 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
12585
9/9 Gold Paladin signing in here.

As others have mentioned its very important to pick your gear for challenge modes wisely.
Higher ilvl items can be of more benefit to you than lower ilvls despite the scaling down due to:

1. Gem Slots - Never scaled down, Lei Shen drops pants with 3 gems slot! OMG OP for CM.
2. Better socket bonus - They are not scaled either! Hurray!

Gemming strategy: Personally I went for a mix between haste and stam. Haste is great for CM since you do so much more damage and better mitigation (Mitigation >>>>>> HP). However, when you first pull a pack you might get some spikey damage from not having your 3 HP up, hence the stam to get you to the point you can get stable with your holy power generation.

Moving on from that you should also have full enchants and food/flasks (Strength), while practice runs are nice, my opinion is you are better off spending the time to make the gold to get those consumables and end up spending less time in the dungeon because they are such drastic buffs.

Have you healer use Restorative Amber from the Klaxxi, it will help to ensure that you aren't pulling when they have very little mana which might be the end for your run.

So that for preparation, now when you are actually in the CM:
1. Use as many aoe stuns, slows, snares as possible. There were several times where on a melee heavy pack I ducked out when the mage froze just to get a little time for the healer to get me back up. Tip: Blinding Light glyph is very very useful.
2. Target specific mobs and cleave off them. You said you had some issues in SH which is typically one of the "easier" dungeons. The two most difficult pulls in there are the hallway after Harlon and the pull right after the invis pots. The reason for this is partly the number of mobs and the very dangerous casters. Focus or CC the evangelists if you can.
3. Troubleshoot and problem solve, in SH for my second time it was ridiculous on those two pulls I mentioned before, we had to try it 3 or 4 times before I knew when and what CDs needed to be popped - This is also an important factor in why you should run with all your buffs and consumables, what CDs you have at your disposal will differ a lot when it takes 1.5min versus 1min to clear a trash pack.

Overall just keep at it, change your talents and glyphs to match your situation, Holy Wrath stun is very valuable in ToJS, SPM and SSB because of all those elementals while Blinding Light is a very useful glyph in SM or SH. Do your research on the places and think about how your comp can work around each challenge the dungeon gives you.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13820
9/9 Gold

I literally stayed my haste build, and just changed helms since the legendary meta doesnt work. It more comes down to comp/stuns etc
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11270
9/9 Gold - wow! Congrats to you both! I've tried CMs a couple times and we've failed every time. It doesn't matter if I'm tanking or healing.. So, much respect to you guys who can do this successfully!!
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100 Draenei Paladin
ENO
6150
I am unfamiliar with the Challenge modes, but isn't it just a heroic dungeon with a timer?

If so why are people struggling with these? Heroics are tuned for iLvl 435, being at iLvl 463 is a significant upgrade. My group just came back to WoW about 2 weeks ago and we are starting to run 4+ heroics /day to get into raids. We are between 450 and 470 iLvl atm and we steam roll heroics, sometimes pulling 2-4 packs at a time.

I get dropped faster than I can generate holy power to use SotR.

It more comes down to comp/stuns etc

you really need to do good CC in most challenge modes.


Reading the comments here is a bit shocking, I mean utilizing CC, stun rotations, group composition? I can understand if you are going for gold times this may help, but if you are getting your a$$ handed to you because the system dropped you down to iLvl 463 then maybe you need to seriously reevaluate how much your gear is carrying you in your current content.

I do not mean to flame, I am honestly curious as to why people are having such a hard time with these challenge modes.

Thanks
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
5845
@Kindread I implore you to attempt one. You will likely understand before you reach the first boss in any of them; why your logic adds nothing here.
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100 Draenei Paladin
ENO
6150
@Kindread I implore you to attempt one. You will likely understand before you reach the first boss in any of them; why your logic adds nothing here.


I am not sure why you think I was trying to add logic to the conversation ..

I have no experience with Challenge modes and made that pretty clear in my post.

I was simply curious as to what makes these runs harder than your average heroic run, except you have a timer. I should have thought twice before posting anything in the sleaze that is the paladin class forums.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13295
Curiosity implies you asking " hey why is this harder", which you did in the first part. The second part was just insulting the posters.

Challenge modes have more trash on occasion, stuff hits a lot harder (4x in some cases) and certain mechanisms in heroics that hurt are one shot kills in CMs. Oh yeah they have more health too.

Big differnce in getting hit by 4 mobs for 40k a piece and 4 mobs hitting for 200k a piece
Edited by Souledin on 7/31/2013 12:00 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
19630
07/31/2013 11:39 AMPosted by Kindread
@Kindread I implore you to attempt one. You will likely understand before you reach the first boss in any of them; why your logic adds nothing here.


I am not sure why you think I was trying to add logic to the conversation ..

I have no experience with Challenge modes and made that pretty clear in my post.

I was simply curious as to what makes these runs harder than your average heroic run, except you have a timer. I should have thought twice before posting anything in the sleaze that is the paladin class forums.

There's more to challenge modes than the timer.

Everything is one level higher than it is in heroic mode--trash is level 91 or 92, bosses are 93 (just like a raid boss). They have more health and do more damage.

Your group's gear is all scaled down to 463 ilevel.

There are patrolling mobs in some places that aren't found in the heroic versions.

Some of the bosses have new mechanics. For example, the jinyu boss in Temple of the Jade Serpent now does a huge aoe spell to players who aren't in the circle around him during the add phase.

You have to kill all the bosses and a set number of trash to count as complete. So you can't just get a bunch of rogues and druids in, stealth to the end, and win.

There isn't any loot, and your gear doesn't take durability damage if you die. But challenge modes aren't about loot, they're about bragging rights and pushing yourself as hard as you can. If you haven't been in one, you have no idea how hard they can be.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13735
9/9 Gold Prot Pally W/ multiple Realm Bests (KT) and World Ranked on multiple dungeons as well.

If your having trouble the first thing I would suggest is to get a disc priest they do a lot of dps and heal all the same, secondly like stated earlier make sure your hit/exp capped and you have a second helm with a meta gem as the legendary doesn't work. 9/9 Gold with a good group is not that difficult and requires no change in gear but these things may help if your dps or survive-ability isn't there. (More gem slots the better)

If your going for 9/9 and not Realm Best I would suggest a haste/stamina build, this means gem 320 haste in red and yellow sockets and 1/2 hast 1/2 stamina in blue sockets. 2x haste trinkets would be optimal but if your going just for 9/9 then stamina gems wouldn't be bad either until you get more comfortable with tanking them. There are a lot of tips and tricks in the pulls that make the dungeons 100x easier such as skipping all that adds in Siege and pulling them after the boss spawns bombs and using them to kill the adds in seconds. So I would take a look at strategies and knowledge of the dungeons if you are struggling to meet gold times as well.

Talents - Speed of Light ~ Fist of Justice ~ Eternal Flame ~ Unbreakable Spirit ~ Holy Avenger ~ Lights Hammer ~ Are my optimal choices.

Glyphs - Alabaster shield ~ Divine Protection ~ Final Wrath (Replace with Blinding light if more stuns are needed in your comp)

Note - Engineering is a very helpful profession synapse springs is very powerful and rocket boots are extremely useful for tanks in CM's. Also invisibility belt means you can use dps potion on every single fight.

For those of you who are LF Realm Best BiS it will also be a haste build (including haste trinkets/gems) w/ bloody dancing steel and strength enchants over stamina. Why not strength? We get hit really hard in CM's this means we are always pooling a lot of vengeance far more than trinkets or gems can even compare, so haste is better as it lowers our gcd's and our cds on certain abilities to allow us to take advantage of high vengeance areas. (Haste build means we will do lower dmg on boss fights to compensate for this we should be swapping our Divine Protection glyph out for Focused Shield and our Lights Hammer talent out for Execution Sentence for more single target burst / dmg.)

If anyone has any questions feel free to reply below and ill try to respond asap, I will be making a prot pally CM guide soon when I get some more experience and ill be sure to link it in here, GL all and have fun :)!
Edited by Deathlobsta on 4/1/2014 9:59 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
13155
I'm not sure the OP still wants advice close to 9 months later ;)
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100 Draenei Paladin
13735
04/01/2014 09:58 AMPosted by Berith
I'm not sure the OP still wants advice close to 9 months later ;)


Yo
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100 Blood Elf Mage
5350
thanks for the answer deathlobsta, found that pretty helpful
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91 Goblin Shaman
3135
Not sure if Deathlobsta is still monitoring this thread, but I have a question.

If Ret gear has the same amount of stamina as Prot, is it worth while to just use DPS gear that has Haste/Mastery on it, or is does Dodge/Parry worth it? Even for SH with the trash that disarms you?
Edited by Dragon on 4/18/2014 4:56 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
9540
Haste gear is prot gear and dodge/parry gear is not paladin gear at all.

Also, you couldn't have found a more recent thread?
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100 Draenei Paladin
13735
Yes Dragon you would, your best in slot stats would be haste/x with x being mastery>crit>dodge>=parry haste is always the best for CM because it gives you damage and survive-ability after that mastery gives you more survive-ability and crit gives you more damage. I prefer mastery because it allows you to pull bigger and get more vengeance increasing your damage way more than crit or have enough mastery so your healer can atonement heal more and not heal you increasing his/her damage. So to sum up you want to find gear with the following stats:

[Most Gem Slots] -> [Haste/Mastery] -> [Haste/Crit]-> [Mastery/Crit] -> [Haste/dodge or parry] -> [Mastery/ dodge or parry]

Unless gear has both dodge and parry then gem slots are priority over anything even haste, other than that follow this priority list to find you bis. (For realm best crit has value)(For golds only dodge/parry/crit all have the same value)

Trinkets for realm best should be haste w/ strength proc > strength w/ haste proc
Edited by Deathlobsta on 4/25/2014 10:29 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
6880
cc as much as possible. You have a stun, aoe disorient, and a good fear. Don't miss interrupts, keep AM up, cycle cd's.... The usual
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90 Tauren Paladin
2680
I've been toying around trying to optimize a gear set. Wanting to do this for fun to push times.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/148FIjST2_5jSE6vcN6ea23LwN11GR42uMsvaiuEHyZk/edit#gid=0

The first one is a strength based build, while the second one is an almost pure haste.

It's also assuming you have Blacksmithing/Engineering
Edited by Scruffee on 4/25/2014 2:06 PM PDT
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