All Monk Healers Please Read: Important

90 Undead Monk
13535
After playing a holy paladin for two expansions, it's easy enough to find down time to use up 8-10 stacks of tea at a time in every single encounter. It also let's you not have to waste a GCD in the middle of heavy damage to gain back your mana so you don't fall behind the cooldown.


So confused.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
I honest to god do not see the advantages of the glyph at all.


glyph doesn't take you out of the healing and returns the same amount of mana. If you're good, you don't fall behind. You can continue to heal and can continue to damage without losing anything at all.

1 GCD > 5-10 seconds of channeling.

Next patch it won't matter as much, but until next patch, glyph is the best.
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100 Human Monk
11910
I think the pros and cons are pretty obvious. You are said its hard for you to find the time to waste a GCD, but you have no problem finding 10 seconds to channel? It doesn't make sense to me, but whatever works.


During heavy damage times, the value of a GCD is more important than during low damage times. Finding time to burn mana tea stacks when their is low damage is easy. I typically do this in between cooldowns of my renewing mists.

The other part of my comment is about you using multiple surging mists on the same target without a clearcasting proc. I don't think its a good practice, so it makes me skeptical about some of the other things you might be doing.


Glyphed Surging Mist removes the target requirement, so you aren't casting it on the same target.

In addition, I think it's the fact you have twice the Spirit as Suplift and Somurd have. Yeah, that sounds a lot more like it.


Spirit would have to enable me to go longer periods of without relying on mana tea. Even with that amount of spirit difference, I still feel that the mana costs that would be required for burst healing wouldn't account for spirit regen. In short, when we use mana, we use a lot of mana in a short amount of time.

glyph doesn't take you out of the healing and returns the same amount of mana. If you're good, you don't fall behind. You can continue to heal and can continue to damage without losing anything at all.

1 GCD > 5-10 seconds of channeling.


1 GCD during heavy damage < 5-10 seconds of channeling during low damage. And you are actually comparing a GCD (1.5 seconds) vs 2 seconds channeling, which is no where near 5-10 seconds, for the same amount of return.

If I can go through a heavy damage phase without needing to waste GCD's on Mana Tea, it will result in more healing throughput given that I have a sufficient time available in a lower damage period to get mana back.

If I have to use a GCD throughout this time in order to keep my mana pool up, then it will be a net loss in healing during the heavy damage period.

The other option is to fall behind in using your mana tea stacks during heavy damage periods, but at the given rate of mana return, it may not depreciate your healing or mana pool.

The only situations where I would want the glyph would be in soft enrage situations where damage progressively gets stronger since you wouldn't have that down time to get your mana back. Although in the previous expansions, it was still possible to do this as a holy paladin and not detract from the overall raid healing.
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100 Human Monk
11910
So confused.


Divine Plea cuts healing by 50% for 9 seconds. In every fight, you had to find down time to use this spell in order to get your mana back. If a Paladin can currently do this (at least until the patch), then it's definitely not improbable for a monk to do the same thing.
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90 Undead Monk
13535
08/05/2013 03:41 PMPosted by Superhero
So confused.


Divine Plea cuts healing by 50% for 9 seconds. In every fight, you had to find down time to use this spell in order to get your mana back. If a Paladin can currently do this (at least until the patch), then it's definitely not improbable for a monk to do the same thing.


The confusing part is that you said that you can find multiple times to channel Mana Tea for 5-10 seconds, but you didn't want to waste a GCD in the middle of high damage. Well you really don't have to "waste" a GCD during high damage. You wait til the high damage is over, then use Mana Tea and go on your way.

During your channel, you aren't healing, damaging, gaining chi and mana tea stacks. You're just standing there channeling.

But if it works for you, then go for it.

I love monk threads.
Edited by Dijital on 8/5/2013 3:48 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
You talk about all of this heavy damage like you've ever actually encountered heavy damage.

You also talk about glyphed mana tea like it negatively impacts your healing (it doesn't.)

Spirit would have to enable me to go longer periods of without relying on mana tea. Even with that amount of spirit difference, I still feel that the mana costs that would be required for burst healing wouldn't account for spirit regen. In short, when we use mana, we use a lot of mana in a short amount of time.


Spirit negatively impacts our healing output. It does absolutely nothing for us. All of our burst healing comes from RM and Uplift which does not cost much. Generating the chi takes nothing. Having that much spirit hurts your healing. (also lol LMG)

If I have to use a GCD throughout this time in order to keep my mana pool up, then it will be a net loss in healing during the heavy damage period.


No it doesn't. lol You pop your mana tea between chi gens (expel harm \ RM) and continue on your merry way.

Glyphed Surging Mist removes the target requirement, so you aren't casting it on the same target.


Removing the target requirement of our only single target chi generating burst heal is one of the silliest things you can do.

--

Just glancing over a cluster of your parses, your numbers reflect those poor gear-choices.
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85 Gnome Priest
6840
Superhero, you're barking up the wrong tree if you're trying to argue best practices with Mist and Suplift--they're two of the best MW monks in the world. Just step back from the keyboard and accept that you're wrong.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
Superhero, you're barking up the wrong tree if you're trying to argue best practices with Mist and Suplift--they're two of the best MW monks in the world. Just step back from the keyboard and accept that you're wrong.


There's my daily dose of ego-boost.
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100 Human Monk
11910
During your channel, you aren't healing, damaging, gaining chi and mana tea stacks. You're just standing there channeling.


But you are healing. Your Renewing Mists is doing all the heavy lifting and you are essentially waiting for the next time that it comes off cooldown.

The alternative is either fistweaving or casting soothing mist. Firstweaving will still be burning mana and soothing mist is only to just generate Chi during the down time.

The value of time spent is different based on what is going on.

For example:
If you are channeling soothing mist, trying to generate Chi for an uplift, do you stop channeling in order to hit your glyphed mana tea cooldown? If so, you are stopping your healing just as much as you are if you channel your healing and you are slowing down your Chi generation. The value of that time healing is drastically more important during high damage than it is during low damage.

The advantages of the glyph really comes down to extended periods of high damage or soft enrages where damage continues to get higher.

It's value is also effected by the amount of movement that needs to take place within a fight as well. However, movement based fights are already something that we do extremely well due to roll. Roll means that any movement based fight, we're going to have much more leniency in our movement which can create time to channel even in these heavy movement phases.
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100 Human Monk
11910
Superhero, you're barking up the wrong tree if you're trying to argue best practices with Mist and Suplift--they're two of the best MW monks in the world. Just step back from the keyboard and accept that you're wrong.


I'm not going to accept something that I don't agree with just because they have a reputation. Sorry if I require a bit more to it.

This is all beside the point of them fighting completely different encounters than I do. Fights get exponentially easier when you have strong raiders that have huge dps that can trivialize encounters. Having low(er) dps and less aware players turns normal mode fights into ridiculously hard encounters.
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100 Human Monk
11910
Spirit negatively impacts our healing output. It does absolutely nothing for us. All of our burst healing comes from RM and Uplift which does not cost much. Generating the chi takes nothing. Having that much spirit hurts your healing. (also lol LMG)


This is a different argument and it's something that I haven't jumped into. I did low spirit builds all of Cata on my paladin and didn't have a problem with it then.

No it doesn't. lol You pop your mana tea between chi gens (expel harm \ RM) and continue on your merry way.


Here's my question then, how are you generating Chi outside of Expel Harm and RM because if you are just waiting for those two cooldowns, then you'll be generating chi extremely slowly. This means you are using things like soothing mists to generate Chi. So, yes, there are more things than just waiting for those two cooldowns that you are doing.

Removing the target requirement of our only single target chi generating burst heal is one of the silliest things you can do.


It's not our only single target burst heal. I'm typically using Chi Burst as a single target burst heal if needed and it's worked out pretty well for me so far since it will hit the target for more than Surging Mist. If I need to burst out more single target healing or need to do that more often, then their is a better than average chance the person that I'm trying to single heal is going to be the lowest person on the health pool and will get the heal anyway. I really haven't ran into many times where my single target heal isn't healing the person that I'm expecting to heal. It also allows you do cast back to back instant cast heals during high damage periods.

Just glancing over a cluster of your parses, your numbers reflect those poor gear-choices.


I'm already reforged for as much crit as possible while still hitting my haste breakpoints. The only thing that would happen is me hitting a second breakpoint at the cost of my spirit. Is getting 1 extra tick of renewing mist while losing 4000 spirit going to somehow make my healing go through the roof?

I know you have more experience than me. I know that you've killed hard mode after hard mode. But I just don't see how these things are going to magically make my healing go up significantly. I've been healing since BC on a paladin, killed most of the hard modes in Ulduar and ICC, got the 50 attempts achievement in ToT, burned through probably half of the hard modes in all of Cata. I mean, I have experience. This expansion has been a test of exactly how much patience we have with our current raid group given our progress or lack thereof.
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85 Gnome Priest
6840
Even with strong dps and healers, the healing required in heroic modes is insane, there is nothing trivial about it.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
Here's my question then, how are you generating Chi outside of Expel Harm and RM because if you are just waiting for those two cooldowns, then you'll be generating chi extremely slowly. This means you are using things like soothing mists to generate Chi. So, yes, there are more things than just waiting for those two cooldowns that you are doing.


GCD Spamming Soothing Mist, Chi Brew, RM, Expel Harm, SCK Cancelling. Those are the only things you need to generate chi. It works fine, and doesn't require you to "channel" anything. Mana Tea fits in nice and cozy between all of this.

The two largest ones are RM and Expel.

The others are only for if you need to generate a lot of chi really fast.

08/05/2013 04:17 PMPosted by Superhero
I'm typically using Chi Burst as a single target burst heal if needed


This is a poor practice and negatively impacts the AOE healing that you can do. The only time you should essentially be using surging mist is instant cast \ free from x5TP or from SMSurge.

Furthermore, forging more of your spirit into throughput stats can do nothing but increase your healing. It allows you for a more aggressive playstyle with far more burst potential. The only time anyone would ever need spirit is if they were casting surging mist after surging mist (which should really never be done, ever.)

Spirit just isn't worth it. There's a reason Blizzard is trying so hard how to figure out to make monks want spirit. None of us use it beyond hit cap.
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90 Pandaren Monk
LA
16675
The glyph allows you to keep doing things as opposed to doing nothing. Delaying the use of tea has never put me so far behind that I can't burn it by the end of a fight anyways.

Most fights on heroic do have low healing period gaps where you could sit there and channel tea leaves but the trade off is you doing nothing as opposed to just using a global and contributing damage/healing (honestly trivial amounts but doing something > doing nothing as long as you have enough mana left over for high healing periods)

I'm typically using Chi Burst as a single target burst heal

I don't even know. This is a huge waste of healing potential but it's better than letting someone die I guess.

Monk GCD is also only one second, not 1.5.

Edit: It should be noted that many of us are not going to be running the glyph next patch because of how much faster consuming the leaves is.
Edited by Pandamonius on 8/5/2013 4:37 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
Edit: It should be noted that many of us are not going to be running the glyph next patch because of how much faster consuming the leaves is.


For the most part, it'll be good to not use it on some (read: most) encounters, yes.
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100 Pandaren Monk
11360
MW should not use high spirit build in current patch. Every MW should use int > haste > cric build. It really help healing a lot rather than the spirit build. Spirit build may cos OOM but int > haste > cric build is hard to OOM if don spam heal.

Spirit build may OOM because of low throughput which cause MW to heal more.

Glyphed mana tea is the best option in current patch.
Edited by Xingling on 8/5/2013 6:02 PM PDT
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100 Human Monk
11910
Honest to god, I just heal so incredibly different than any of you are describing that it's not even funny but at the same time, everything that's being told to me that I'm not doing it right just does not logically make any sense to me.

Using glyphed mana tea lowers your potential healing output no matter how you slice it. Any GCD where you use mana tea could have been used to generate either throughput or Chi. Now, you can argue that it's not a large potential change but the point still stands.

Secondly, given that a paladin is able to use Divine Plea in the current game, then that means every encounter has down times or at least the potential to cut healing throughput during low damage phases in order to regen mana.

Third, glyphed mana tea does not have a catch up mechanic built into it, so if you do go an extended period of time without hitting your Mana Tea, there is no way to catch back up like you have with the unglyphed version. This makes it much more flexible in it's usage.

Next, there is absolutely no way that I could survive large scale damage without relying on Surging Mist. We're working on Lei Shen right now, trying to heal up 400k+ damage on 2-3 different people with just Uplift isn't possible after a static shock. How are you supposed to heal them up? I'm using Chi Burst. I'm using all my Chi. At the end of the day though, I don't have the time slowly get someone back up in health when we're getting hit with another 150-180k damage from bouncing balls or just other damage in general.

Static Shock hits approx 3 second after Bouncing Ball on the first transition of Lei Shen. I pretty much end up using up my Chi initially healing up the bouncing ball just so that we can survive the Static Shock. This leaves me with no Chi to heal up the 400k worth of damage from the static shock. So... how do I heal that? This is all independent of any adds that come in or damage from diffusion chain. I'm healing a quadrant by myself with a Shaman and a DK.

Regarding Spirit, sure putting it into throughput stats with increase your throughput and since mana is not a problem, it does help out. With that said, just increasing your throughput stats for the sake of increasing your throughput stats seems a little bit misguided. Haste arguably does just as little for increasing your throughput outside of hitting your haste breakpoints since hardly anything is hard casted to begin with. That leaves throughput stats beyond that go into the incidental healing of the mastery or into crit which is where I'm currently focusing all of my stats. The short answer that I'm trying to point out is that even moving the large amount of throughput stats around, the other secondary stats aren't very strong the effects would be marginal. Yes, it would increase the healing, but it's not something that would drastically change around my healing.

Chi Burst is something that I've used to fill in where I need a single target heal. In general, it's such a situational spell to begin with in order to maximize, it's something that can be used as a direct single target heal since the target does get healed for a large amount and the extra healing is a bonus. It's not like I'm not trying to maximize it's usage, but I'm using it with the primary thought process of the expected healing on the target. The times in the fight where we are grouped up to the point where I can maximize the usage of it, then I am trying to do that, but I'm not going to sit on the spell and wait for some perfect time to use it.

Honestly, this expansion has been our worst expansion in terms of progression that we've ever had. My raid group has been together since Wrath with most of them raiding since Vanilla (including myself). I really don't feel like healing is the reason that we're failing.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
08/05/2013 06:04 PMPosted by Superhero
Using glyphed mana tea lowers your potential healing output no matter how you slice it. Any GCD where you use mana tea could have been used to generate either throughput or Chi. Now, you can argue that it's not a large potential change but the point still stands.


This is currently true regardless of whether or not you glyph mana tea.

Not glyphing mana tea just means that you waste a lot more GCDs.
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100 Pandaren Monk
11360
Next, there is absolutely no way that I could survive large scale damage without relying on Surging Mist. We're working on Lei Shen right now, trying to heal up 400k+ damage on 2-3 different people with just Uplift isn't possible after a static shock. How are you supposed to heal them up? I'm using Chi Burst. I'm using all my Chi. At the end of the day though, I don't have the time slowly get someone back up in health when we're getting hit with another 150-180k damage from bouncing balls or just other damage in general.


My guild can heal it up with my current spirit level. We do not solo heal. I heal with a shammy and druid. MW is weak in single target heal. Healers should work together to heal it up, we cannot solo heal. I am always the best AOE healing healer in my guild. Everything go fine. My guild still stuck in Lei Shen because some dps still cannot spread and stack at the correct time, they react slowly to the mechanic.

MW should always focus on AOE healing rather than single target heal. Let other healers to heal ppl who get severe damage. We cannot use surging mist many time. I do use surging mist in mostly every raid but sure less than 3 times. I use it only in emergency.

High spirit build will SURELY reduce the aoe healing throughput very much.
Edited by Xingling on 8/5/2013 6:27 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
15380
@ superhero

Here is the most simplest form to compare glyph v non glyph.

1 tea stack = 1 sec channel (non glyph)
2 tea stack = 1s gcd (glyph) (monk GCD is 1 sec)

assume my average is ~70 drinks a fight.

non glyph = 70 seconds of down time.
glyph = 35 seconds downtime.

Add in a GCD on so many fights is easy to put in somewhere, while a longer 4-6s channel is not.

Channeling also requires one to stay standing still. A gcd can be used on the move.

And whoa 13k spirit? O_O crazy.
Edited by Ashkongfu on 8/5/2013 7:01 PM PDT
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