Rogue Refinements in 6.0

90 Undead Rogue
10145
Hey all, by now the devs are thinking about class changes for the next
expansion. That means we should try to give as much constructive feedback as
possible in the upcoming weeks and months so as to help give them a better idea
of what direction we would like our class to go.

The purpose of this thread is to consolidate opinions regarding the direction
rogues should take in the next expansion. I intend to keep this thread relevant
over the course of the next few months, and as such have a few things to ask
people to keep in mind before posting:

Notes, Rules, and Guidelines:
(Note: Where applicable, examples will be put as a quote below the entry.)


  • Keep it civil. These posts will mostly be opinion. While it is fine to
    voice disagreement, doing so excessively or making points that you have already
    made is useless and only serves to reduce the quality of this thread.
  • Constructive:
    p1: "I think X should do more damage than Y"
    p2: "For what its worth, I like X and Y doing the same damage..."

    Destructive:
    p1: "I think X should do more damage than Y"
    p2: "As I've said multiple times, X and Y should continue doing the same damage
    because bla."

    Note that the only reason the latter is destructive is because once a point is
    made, reiterating it will at best annoy devs and at worst annoy devs while
    stifling creativity and causing unwillingness to post.

  • Be reasonable: Blizzard will probably be open to some pretty large changes,
    but they have said they will not give rogues an overhaul like they did for locks
    in MoP. I'm not going to say there are any subjects you shouldn't discuss, but just keep
    in mind that we are suggesting ways to change rogues, not reinvent them.
  • Keep in mind both PvE and PvP: It's a big game, saying sub needs more burst
    may be fine in PvE, but in PvP such a change is...unlikely. If you only really
    do one of these it's worth considering mentioning that as a disclaimer.
  • Avoid being too specific: You want to give Blizzard an idea of what
    direction you want them go to in, but giving a specific path is not the way to
    go.
  • Good:
    "I'd like to see bigger numbers more often, rather than lots of small ones from DoTs, autoattacks, and poisons. Large crits make me feel more responsible for my damage."

    Not so good:
    "Eviscerate and Backstab/SS/Mut should be buffed and white damage
    reduced."


    Note that while the meaning of the former could be extrapolated from the latter, you could also get different meanings from it, like generally pull damage away from autoattacks (leaving out poisons and DoTs). It also leaves readers unsure of why you want this change. Maybe you just feel strongly about those abilities? Finally, notice that I left out Envenom, which in a point like this would probably be an oversight.


One Last (Optional) Order of Business:
A lot of people like having prompts to help them figure out where to start, so here ya go. Feel free to not use 'em.


  • What is your ideal, glorified, rogue? This one can be a bit unrealistic, and doesn't have to be one answer (You could, for instance, say 3 - 1 per spec), but basically, if you had a dream you were the perfect OP rogue, what would it be like?
  • How do you feel about the current damage distribution (where the bulk of your damage comes from) for each spec? What would you like it to be like? Please make note of whether this is in PvE or PvP.
  • What are your thoughts on each spec's rotation?
  • If you could pitch just one idea to the devs, what would it be?
  • What is your favorite part about your rogue in MoP, and what has been your favorite historically?
  • Least favorite?
  • What should rogues be able to do better than every other class/melee?
  • What should rogues be able to do worse than every other class/melee?
  • What do you think about the class's role in PvE/PvP? If you would like to see it change, in what direction?
  • What that rogues used to have do you miss?
  • What popular suggestion(s) do you vehemently disagree with, and why?


Ok that's it, although I will say that if you have a good addition to this intro (especially the lists) then feel free to share it.
Edited by Haileaus on 9/3/2013 10:32 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
It's hard to say what will happen in 6.0. Blizzard said no major changes. But, these are the same guys who originally had zones marked from "unchanged" to "overhaul" for Cataclsym. And we all know how that ended. :P
So, there's a small chance that some big things could happen.

If something big did happen. It would be cool to get a ranged and tank spec.
If not that, two specs have difference mechanics than combo points or energy even.

What are your thoughts on each spec's rotation?

Currently(PVE), Assassination and Combat seem fine. Subtlety a little chaotic.
For PVP, everything seems okay.
If you could pitch just one idea to the devs, what would it be?

If I knew there was a chance: Stealth Archer spec.
Since there probably isn't, strong competition between:
-Bring our critical strike bonus back. Both the % chance increase and critical damage increase.
-Remove all bleed connection from Subtlety.
What is your favorite part about your rogue in MoP, and what has been your favorite historically?

In MOP: Subterfuge | Historically: Stealth.
Least favorite?

Bugs. :)
What should rogues be able to do better than every other class/melee?

Control
What should rogues be able to do worse than every other class/melee?

Survive
Edited by Knocrogue on 8/3/2013 8:19 AM PDT
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100 Undead Rogue
11270
I would like quality of life changes.

For example, I would like the positional requirement on ambush to be gone during shadow dance

slice and dice should be refreshed as sub when you evis
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100 Troll Rogue
21875
slice and dice should be refreshed as sub when you evis

This is more than a QoL change, its probably a 2-3% dps buff. I'm not saying sub doesn't need it but its important to call dps buffs dps buffs and not QoL changes.

More generally I think its important to remember why assassination has SnD refresh on envenom. Assassination relies heavily on rolling envenoms as much as possible, needing to use cps to refresh SnD would disrupt the central rhythm of the spec. Sub as the highest cp gen of the three rogue specs doesn't really need an SnD refresh because it has cp to spare.

I've been working so some ideas for how to make rogues a much more interesting class in PvE that I'll post here when I finish them up.
Edited by Fierydemise on 8/3/2013 8:44 AM PDT
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91 Undead Rogue
8620
I like prompts.
What is your ideal, glorified, rogue?
I'd like for it to be the best duelist/assassin possible. Basically have really good tools for 1v1 fighting and also a toolkit to help you turn any fight into a 1v1.
How do you feel about the current damage distribution for each spec? What would you like it to be like? Please make note of whether this is in PvE or PvP.
I'm fine with dmg distribution idc that our non-burst dmg is mostly passive, that's something that helps less experienced players while not hindering the cream-o-the-crop. This applies to both PvE and PvP.
What are your thoughts on each spec's rotation?
Mut is simple but you can easily find ways to make it complicated and eake out that little extra bit of dps. Combat is too spammy, I like the quick play but it's a little toooo fast right now. Sub is needlessly complicated.
If you could pitch just one idea to the devs, what would it be?
Replace Killing Spree with something player controlled.
What is your favorite part about your rogue in MoP, and what has been your favorite historically?
In MoP I've really enjoyed... solo'ing old content with Leechign Poison. I LOVED Cata Combat spec, the amount of control I had, combined with the survivability, made it almost possible to get those 1v1 fights in the middle of clashing armies that I want.
Least favorite?
Gotta be the MoP overhaul of Combat spec. Took away all the extra control and survivabilty tools that made me love the spec, in exchange for harder hitting Spree's which is an ability I wish didn't even exist.
What should rogues be able to do better than every other class/melee?
Definitely control.
What should rogues be able to do worse than every other class/melee?
That's tricky. Honestly I'd say AoE/target swap.
What do you think about the class's role in PvE/PvP? If you would like to see it change, in what direction?
I'm happy with the class's role in PvE, we provide strong dps while providing some utility along with it.
In PvP I'd like to see us go away from the crazy burst model. I want high single target sustained dmg while providing strong cc. I'd like for us to be a lot less fragile too.
Edited by Kiljagen on 8/3/2013 9:02 AM PDT
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For Subtlety, I would like to see Shadow Dance do one of two things. Either it makes the rogue immune to control loss effects such as stuns, fears, cyclone, disorients, etc. (still able to be affected by roots, slows, pushbacks.) OR give it the same style the demon form has for demonology warlocks. Requiring you to build up shadow power (or something) and allowing you to stay in shadow dance for X amount of time until the shadow power is used up or it is turned off. While in shadow dance, rogues should literally move through the shadows, occasionally forcing their enemies to drop target via slipping in and out of stealth.

For Combat, I'd like to see a chance to equip a pole arm while at the same time making ambush deal less damage OR allowing it to become a tank spec. Given it is a combat spec, it should be able to physically knock down the target as an extra form of interrupt.

For Assassination, I would like to see this spec become a ranged spec with the ability to close in for finishing with melee after perhaps the target's health reaches 35% (I understand this is some what possible now, but the ranged aspect needs to be some what stronger, so as to compete in raiding). To help, with avoidance of damage, you could make distract usable outside of stealth and forcing all enemies in range of it to target the dummy that will be added via glyph in 5.4.

Overall for rogues,

-Deadly throw should be baseline and require just a little less energy.
-Given rogues rely on stealth to do any form of pvp, it should be some what easier to slip into stealth after combat has begun. With only one means to get out of the druid talent Faerie Fire every minute, a rogue is unable to use stealth openers to give any fight to a class that is unable to be slowed or rooted. (Another type of stealth or another means to remove such talents.)
-The energy cost of Shuriken toss should be reduced somewhat to make it viable for fighting ranged classes. (This should be so due to the amount of ranged classes in WoW, and as to not make it so rogues can close distance to use their destructive CCs at will. For example: Cloak and Dagger combination with Shadow dance in 5.2 was over kill.)
Edited by Dawbu on 8/3/2013 9:13 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Replace Killing Spree with something player controlled.


Like the proposed talented Killing Spree at the announcement of MOP? Or a whole new ability?

That's tricky. Honestly I'd say AoE/target swap.


Oh wow, that didn't even cross my mind. Yah, I wouldn't mind going back before Redirect, FOK and CT.
Edited by Knocrogue on 8/3/2013 9:04 AM PDT
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91 Undead Rogue
8620
08/03/2013 09:03 AMPosted by Knocrogue
Replace Killing Spree with something player controlled.


Like the proposed talented Killing Spree at the announcement of MOP? Or a whole new ability?
I'd rather it be something entirely different. I was REALLY excited about the proposed Vendetta that was coming at the same time.
I really want to remove teleporting from Combat spec. It's not.... right. Thematically.
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Take us back to the days of high dmg, good control, squishy as heck and no healing. Homogenization is getting out if control in this game.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
I'd rather it be something entirely different. I was REALLY excited about the proposed Vendetta that was coming at the same time.
I really want to remove teleporting from Combat spec. It's not.... right. Thematically.


We did kind of get beta Vendetta with Shuriken Toss! If only they made that tier more balanced.
And, yah! Never heard of a Swashbuckler able to perform ninja moves. :P
I wonder what kind of new move would fit that archetype and be able to balance Combat's DPS loss from losing Killing Spree.
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100 Human Rogue
20055
Alright let me give this a try and hopefully I don't sound stupid...

What is your ideal, glorified, rogue? This one can be a bit unrealistic, and doesn't have to be one answer (You could, for instance, say 3 - 1 per spec), but basically, if you had a dream you were the perfect OP rogue, what would it be like?


My perfect rogue would have more survivability in PVP or PVE. Like to see our defenses not be on such a long CD and last a bit long. Definitely like to see energy regen boosted.

For PVP I would like to see more ccs like sub in the other specs. If all 3 specs to be truely viable in PVP they need to have the same types and ways to cc others.

How do you feel about the current damage distribution (where the bulk of your damage comes from) for each spec? What would you like it to be like? Please make note of whether this is in PvE or PvP.


For PVE I think it is fine for damage. Combat and Sin seem to be able to keep up with each other. I don't know about Sub as I haven't played it as PVE just PVP.

As for PVP, I think sub needs a boost. It was really nice in Cata. Sub, I wouldn't say over powered, but didn't feel like I was hitting someone with a wet noodle. I loved sub in Cata could pretty much burn down most players especially healers.

What are your thoughts on each spec's rotation?


This is for PVE mainly, as I am a casual PVPer you could say.
I like Sin's rotation seems to flow very well. Combat not so much. I haven't played it since the beginning of MOP so I can't say how it is now but once MOP came out it started to get clunky felt really slow. During Cata I didn't have that feeling. No matter how much haste you get combat just didn't seem to flow very well.

If you could pitch just one idea to the devs, what would it be?


Besides Knoc's suggetions, maybe a rogue healer spec. One where you teleport with ShS to the person and you stab them to heal them or if you could not teleport you could use throw to heal them from long range. I think it would be a unique spec and a lot of fun. Call it a Medic Rogue. Might even have special bandages, for maybe pvp to where you could stealth around healing your teammates and the enemy couldn't see you.

What is your favorite part about your rogue in MoP, and what has been your favorite historically?


MOP got me to try a new spec.
Historically: Stealth, don't ever want this to go away.

Least favorite?

Survivability

What should rogues be able to do better than every other class/melee?


Control

What should rogues be able to do worse than every other class/melee?


hmm touch one. Not really sure.

What do you think about the class's role in PvE/PvP? If you would like to see it change, in what direction?


I liked to see rogue more viable in PVE for ccs and such. Sucks that there are so many classes now with a cc. Rogue's were needed back in BC. Maybe have more locked doors that only rogues could open. I dunno just seems people look down on rogues now, like to see them be more viable.

PVP like to have a bit more survivability. Those times when you are going against someone and both of you are low on health and if you had that one extra defense you would beat them and save the flag carrier or whatever you have to do.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Besides Knoc's suggetions, maybe a rogue healer spec. One where you teleport with ShS to the person and you stab them to heal them or if you could not teleport you could use throw to heal them from long range. I think it would be a unique spec and a lot of fun. Call it a Medic Rogue. Might even have special bandages, for maybe pvp to where you could stealth around healing your teammates and the enemy couldn't see you.


Would definitely be a very unique spec! A melee healer. Just thinking about how chaotic that would be in a raid environment. Having to run up to the target you want to heal. Man. haha
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100 Human Rogue
20055
08/03/2013 09:44 AMPosted by Knocrogue
Besides Knoc's suggetions, maybe a rogue healer spec. One where you teleport with ShS to the person and you stab them to heal them or if you could not teleport you could use throw to heal them from long range. I think it would be a unique spec and a lot of fun. Call it a Medic Rogue. Might even have special bandages, for maybe pvp to where you could stealth around healing your teammates and the enemy couldn't see you.


Would definitely be a very unique spec! A melee healer. Just thinking about how chaotic that would be in a raid environment. Having to run up to the target you want to heal. Man. haha
.

I know but it would be sooooooo much fun I think. Besides you would have ShS to teleport to a friendly target but with no CD on it so you could teleport as much as you could. Instead of poison on your weapons it would be a healing elixir you coat your weapons with.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
I know but it would be sooooooo much fun I think. Besides you would have ShS to teleport to a friendly target but with no CD on it so you could teleport as much as you could. Instead of poison on your weapons it would be a healing elixir you coat your weapons with.


Oh! No CD on ShS. Yah, that would definitely make things a lot more smoother. Would definitely be fun to try out.
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90 Undead Rogue
9390
For 6.0, rogues need to be looked into quite a bit. There are several key areas i think that needs to be addressed. Im going to come from a purely pvp perspective, since i do not pve on a rogue.

Concept: A rogue is suppose to be an Assassin, Theif, bralwer, ect. The concept of a rogue is not somebody who can hold their ground, and because of that does everything in there power to avoid it. Rogues are suppose to ambush, then run. Rogues are suppose to be agile and avoid attacks, which is why they wear leather armor. However, blizzard seems to think rogue's are suppose to be warriors with stealth, that can hold their ground. Rogue's are suppose to deal quite a bit of damage, have lots of CC, but very little defensive capabilities. Blizzard, from the looks of it, is trying to get away from that concept, but its ruining the class imo.

CC: Rogues used to be the kings of CC. You brought a rogue to your team to CC. With mop, everybody and thier mother got CC. Now, ours is nothing special, and actually worse. Our iconic stunlock can now be ruined by other classes because of all the shared DR's. We've had basically the same CC capabilities forever, while other classes are constantly getting changes and new tools. If the amount of CC available to other classes isnt going to be reduced, something has to be done to make the rogue class iconic again, and give it something that its known for. As cool as stealth is, it does not win a fight.

Damage: With 5.0, quite a bit of our damage went into auto-attacks. Why blizzard every did this is beyond me, as it is a very terrible design plan. Things have obviously changed since then, but our damage is still lacking. Our burst and sustained are not on par, considering our survivability is poor. Our damage needs to be taken out of all the passive mechanics, and put back into the power of our abilities. Sub rogues require a bleed up at all times to get SangVeins up, to simply be able to preform. Assassinations damage comes from poisons, and their rupture proc. Combat is not as passive, but is so heavily reliant on its burst that once it goes down, the entire spec becomes useless. This is bad design.

Survivability: A rogues ability to survive should be based off of mitigation. A rogue wears leather armor to avoid attacks, not to take them. As i said above, the concept of a rogue should be more damage and less survivability. With that said, our survivability should be based off of our damage. If you can get through our burst or control, we should be vulnerable.

Individualism: Like i said above, rogues used to be the kings of CC. Now, we are nothing special. Rogue's need some new ideas to make them stand out from the crowd. Many classes are getting new resource bars, such as Balance druids Eclipse, or Ret paladins Holy Power. I am against that type of idea. When holy power first came out, it was a mess. Just look at Affliction warlocks now, their Soul shards are also a mess. They generate through a VERY small % proc, or through drain soul.(Which is a dps lose to use if above the 20% mark) Balance druids have Eclipse, but you generate Lunar/Solar power so quickly that you leave eclipse before you know it. They do have individualism from other classes, but the mechanics dont work properly. It took them an expansion to fix holy power. That is not the way to go.

However, i do think there are ways to go about creating a "individualistic" sense without these resource bars.

OR give it the same style the demon form has for demonology warlocks. Requiring you to build up shadow power (or something) and allowing you to stay in shadow dance for X amount of time until the shadow power is used up or it is turned off. While in shadow dance, rogues should literally move through the shadows, occasionally forcing their enemies to drop target via slipping in and out of stealth


This is a great idea. While I of course dont like the idea of the resource, its still an idea. Instead of having a bland CD to use, Shadow Dance can be changed to be a stance of some sort that we need to manage.

Just my two copper.
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90 Undead Rogue
9390
A melee healer. Just thinking about how chaotic that would be in a raid environment. Having to run up to the target you want to heal. Man. haha


I think this is actually very viable. Many games have made rogue healers work, in forms of Bards.

I dont think it should be strictly melee though. If there was a rogue healer, it should be more of a combat-medic type of healer. Rogues specialize in poisons, but there are plenty of materials out in the world that are toxic on their own, but when mixed become perfectly fine. A Rogue could use these "poisons" to heal their allies. Throwing healing vials, or injecting moprhine into allies would be very unique type of healer.
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100 Human Rogue
20055
08/03/2013 09:57 AMPosted by Zeleros
A melee healer. Just thinking about how chaotic that would be in a raid environment. Having to run up to the target you want to heal. Man. haha


I think this is actually very viable. Many games have made rogue healers work, in forms of Bards.

I dont think it should be strictly melee though. If there was a rogue healer, it should be more of a combat-medic type of healer. Rogues specialize in poisons, but there are plenty of materials out in the world that are toxic on their own, but when mixed become perfectly fine. A Rogue could use these "poisons" to heal their allies. Throwing healing vials, or injecting moprhine into allies would be very unique type of healer.


Exactly what I was thinking. Usually a rogue knows how to heal themselves using the herbs and such out in the world to counter a poison or something.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
I'm not ready to post for real yet, but I will say that I miss Thistle Tea.
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90 Undead Rogue
10145
I added this to the list of prompts. If you have already posted and want to answer this, I suggest you do so as a new post (ideally in addition to editing your own) so that people who have already read your post see it.
What that rogues used to have do you miss?
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
08/03/2013 10:49 AMPosted by Haileaus
What that rogues used to have do you miss?


-Crafting Poisons
-Flash Powder
-Blinding Powder
-30% snare on Stealth
-Having to invest talent points to get a stronger Stealth
-Weapon Specializations

Thing's I don't miss:
-Poison animation
-Ghostly Strike
-Riposte
-Crit modifiers(Improved Ambush, Puncturing Wounds, Lethality)
-Unfair Advantage
-Cold Blood
-Improved Kick/Sprint

^.^
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