5.4 Vengeance Mechanics - Info Request

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90 Human Paladin
18025
The introduction of diminishing returns on Vengeance in 5.4 poses a bit of a problem for theorycrafters, in that it will be particularly difficult to test effectively. Part of that is feedback-related, as the only way that I'm aware of to poll Vengeance data is to call UnitBuff(). It would be nice if Vengeance updates triggered a combat log event that we could parse after the fact.

But even with that, there are a large number of ways that this diminishing returns system could be implemented, and it's unlikely that we will be able to reverse-engineer and narrow down that implementation very quickly or easily.

In the interest of expedience, could you please provide an official overview of the calculations being performed behind-the-scenes once they have been determined? That will save us (okay, me) a lot of time and allow the community to provide much more accurate and useful feedback about the changes in a more timely manner.

Thanks!
Edited by Theck on 8/4/2013 11:50 AM PDT
90 Human Paladin
15535
I don't have any info for you, but I want to ask, are you posing this question on the PTR forums too? You'll probably have a better chance getting answers there.

At any rate, good luck gathering your info. :)
90 Orc Warrior
10130
Can I ask why it matters?

While I certainly appreciate the annoyance over how poorly they continue to document vengeance, the DR on multiple mobs is either going to be linear or logarithmic. Either way, it's going to perform relatively similarly until you get above 3 mobs.

In all of ToC, there is one boss fight that this would matter on: Tortos Bats.

I mean, I think they should document Vengeance better, but it's not really a huge deal.
MVP - Technical Support
90 Human Warrior
18590
garrosh, you tank 6 mobs at once. (no doubt a strong motivating factor for such a change. Probably upset about my 1.4M per mob shockwave crits). It's certainly going to matter a ton, maybe even to survivability as those mobs can be pretty hard hitting (they typically got at least one 200% buff before they died)

But there are other fights where you definitely have more than 3 mobs.

Of course there is also the issue of shockwave syncing their swing timers and getting WTF owned by it sometimes. WTB more viable bladestorm for prot so aoe threat doesn't cause needless stun DR or swing timer sync ups. :)
Edited by Omegal on 8/4/2013 12:33 PM PDT
90 Orc Warrior
10130
garrosh, you tank 6 mobs at once. (no doubt a strong motivating factor for such a change. Probably upset about my 1.4M per mob shockwave crits). It's certainly going to matter a ton, maybe even to survivability as those mobs can be pretty hard hitting (they typically got at least one 200% buff before they died)


Ah, I see. Yeah, if it's the last boss of the x-pack, it's probably going to be an issue.

Why would blizz make the last boss of an expansion an add fight :(
90 Human Paladin
18025
Can I ask why it matters?


Mostly because "relatively similar to X" is difficult to code in Simcraft. Having accurate models is the key to getting accurate results whether you're modeling WoW, atomic interactions, or satellite/rocket trajectories.

"Stuff falls down" isn't a sufficient model for gravity, for example. :P
90 Orc Warrior
10130
Mostly because "relatively similar to X" is difficult to code in Simcraft. Having accurate models is the key to getting accurate results whether you're modeling WoW, atomic interactions, or satellite/rocket trajectories.


Oh sure, I get this. My thought was that it didn't matter if there weren't adds in boss fights. Since there are, obviously it matters--especially if it's on Garrosh.
90 Night Elf Death Knight
13945
Ah, I see. Yeah, if it's the last boss of the x-pack, it's probably going to be an issue.Why would blizz make the last boss of an expansion an add fight :(

I don't know. Let me go ask Deathwing.

/fistshake
90 Pandaren Monk
17265
Ah, I see. Yeah, if it's the last boss of the x-pack, it's probably going to be an issue.

Why would blizz make the last boss of an expansion an add fight :(


A 1v1 encounter (or 10v1/25v1) is not the electric conclusion that Blizzard wants, and this has always been the case. Your memory is broken.

Vanilla: Kel'thuzad, necromancer that he was, was appropriately lousy with adds, but before him Ragnaros, Nefarian (the father of all add fights) and C'thun all featured add management as a primary element of their encounters.
Burning Crusade: Kil'jaeden, Imps and Reflections.
Wrath of the Lich King: Lich King, Ghouls and Shambling Horrors, Val'kyr, Vile Spirits.
Cataclysm: Spine was the mother of all add fights and Madness had tentacles, parasites, blood, horrors and oozes.

End-of-tier bosses virtually always have adds (3/3 in t14, 3/3 in t11), and final tier bosses moreover. Halion was an outlier.

Back on topic: I have nothing to add, but I'd like to know for considering Brewmaster damage on add-heavy encounters.
90 Draenei Paladin
13095
08/04/2013 02:07 PMPosted by Theck
Can I ask why it matters?


Mostly because "relatively similar to X" is difficult to code in Simcraft. Having accurate models is the key to getting accurate results whether you're modeling WoW, atomic interactions, or satellite/rocket trajectories.

"Stuff falls down" isn't a sufficient model for gravity, for example. :P


Yup. Many tank classes are extremely reliant on Vengeance not just for damage output (obvious) but for defensive mechanics - Sacred Shield/Seal of Insight, Shield Barrier, Guard/Expel Harm, etc.

Being able to accurately model attack power gains is crucial, so it's extremely important that the actual coding of this is made public.
1 Draenei Paladin
0
crucial


Crucial for what?
Community Manager
Here’s some details on exactly how the multi-target diminishing returns are set to work in 5.4. Warning: here there be maths.

The basic, concise explanation is as follows: The Nth strongest (based on pre-mitigation average auto attack DPS) mob that has hit you in the last 5 seconds grants 1/Nth of full vengeance with their attacks. N is recalculated on every hit taken.

So here’s an example. Say you’re tanking 3 mobs – we’ll say it’s a boss and two adds. The boss has pre-mitigation average auto attack DPS of 1500k, one add does 400k, and the other add does 300k. The game will form a list of those mobs from 1-3, like so:
1. Boss: 1500k DPS, 1/1 (100%) of normal vengeance is granted
2. First add: 400k DPS, 1/2 (50%) of normal vengeance is granted
3. Second add: 300k DPS, 1/3 (33.333%, repeating of course) of normal vengeance is granted

This would of course continue as more mobs are being tanked (granting 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, and so on). Also, if the second add were to land a hit at any point when the first add hasn’t attacked you in the last 5sec (such as if it swings first), that attack would grant 1/2 Vengeance instead of 1/3.

Hope that clears things up for the theorycrafters.
90 Pandaren Monk
11640
Whoa. Wait. Blue text in the tank forum.

Mommy, I'm scared.

Hidy ho, Lore :)
90 Human Death Knight
17490
Wow, Lore for Sainthood!

Thanks for demystifying this.
90 Pandaren Mage
8905
As much as I hate these nerfs, I do acknowledge that they really are needed. I see some tanks pulling ridiculous amounts of damage by intentionally soaking up raid damage that they really shouldn't be soaking up in the first place. Really only the top tier raiding guilds have the ability to handle abusing mechanics like this and when the lower tier guilds or PUGs try to emulate this behavior it just leads to problems.
90 Human Death Knight
6275
if they do that much damage apeice the tank is already dead
Edited by Helemkon on 8/6/2013 1:59 PM PDT
90 Dwarf Warrior
16850
if they do that much damage apeice the tank is already dead
Those are example numbers :P
90 Pandaren Monk
11505
if they do that much damage apeice the tank is already dead


08/06/2013 12:41 PMPosted by Lore
pre-mitigation
1 Pandaren Monk
0
I may have missed the memo, by why is there a stat that allows tanks to out dps the raid's dps? Obviously the issue mentioned above is a huge problem, tanks intentionally taking more damage to boost vengeance and boost DPS.

I'm not sure why the current model of tanking was ever implemented? Perhaps to offset the lack of tanks? Put up big(ger)dps as a tank, attract more people to fill this role?

As a pure DPS class it grates on me that Tanks are often close or at the top of the damage meters. If you want to DPS, roll a DPS character.

Tanks should be focused on surviving the encounter, maintaining the focus of the boss/adds/mobs in general and mitigating damage through use of CD's. Why does Threat no longer matter? I cannot remember the last encounter where Threat was even an issue...

What's next? Healers that do insane DPS? I'm just confused by this whole Vengeance and Tank DPS thing...
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