5.4 Vengeance Mechanics - Info Request

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100 Blood Elf Paladin
14805
The original issue was that dps's dps scaled up over the course of an expansion because they naturally stacked dps stats. Tank dps scaled up much, much slower because we were stacking survivability stats. The extra ilevels gave us more STR, and weapon damage, but that was about it. Plus, there tended to be issues with new tanks having absolutely no hope of holding threat against better geared dps.

So Vengeance was put in to allow tank threat (and, elegantly, many survival mechanisms) to scale with incoming damage taken and thus keep up with dps.

The problem then became that, arguably, tanks ended up scaling too well with vengeance, particularly when tanks had the option of doing things like stand in fire or tank *all* of the adds while beating on the boss to really crank up the dps. Additionally, some (but not all) tanks got survivability out of traditionally dps stats, allowing them to stack things like haste or crit and still survive. Those stats didn't boost tank dps as much as it did for the dps, but it certainly helped a lot more than STAM or Parry.

And here we are.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16745
I may have missed the memo, by why is there a stat that allows tanks to out dps the raid's dps? Obviously the issue mentioned above is a huge problem, tanks intentionally taking more damage to boost vengeance and boost DPS.

I'm not sure why the current model of tanking was ever implemented? Perhaps to offset the lack of tanks? Put up big(ger)dps as a tank, attract more people to fill this role?

As a pure DPS class it grates on me that Tanks are often close or at the top of the damage meters. If you want to DPS, roll a DPS character.

Tanks should be focused on surviving the encounter, maintaining the focus of the boss/adds/mobs in general and mitigating damage through use of CD's. Why does Threat no longer matter? I cannot remember the last encounter where Threat was even an issue...

What's next? Healers that do insane DPS? I'm just confused by this whole Vengeance and Tank DPS thing...


They added it because dps scales in gear faster than a tank can keep threat, so it was either buff tank threat to the point you could afk, or give them vengeance so as they took damage they would gain more dps to keep up in threat.

Until they make tank damage not matter as much in raids, 10 man mostly, they need to keep vengeance, not to mention it buffs every tanks active mitigation to make sure it can keep up with how much damage they're taking.
1 Pandaren Monk
0
Thanks for the explanation. I thought it had something to do along those lines but wasn't sure. Looks like the developers are now faced with the daunting task of tweaking this stat (just reading the other post regarding the vengeance changes for 5.4... lots of hate there...)

Still, Vengeance as a whole feels like a very large band-aid solution to the issue at hand, TPS scaling vs DPS scaling.
100 Human Paladin
10170
if they do that much damage apeice the tank is already dead


The damage numbers used in this example would currently give 750K vengence.

At item levels above 540, physical damage is 100% mitigated on average but deviations from the average at these levels could be fatal. A real world example where these numbers occur is the Heroic Dark Animus zerg strat.
100 Pandaren Monk
16325
From the afk standpoint I have so much threat issue is exactly the same now with veng as it was when we did X-mulitplier of base threat. I Could still afk after a minute or so of beating on the boss except I may have to move from Y mechanic.. Threat is something so outdated at this point after the first 5s I dont even know why its in the game.

Honestly I dont expect to be #1 in damage, altho I am alot of the time, I would feel totally useless if I did 50k dps like alot of warr and dk tanks I've seen. Just tanking a boss and being there as a meat shield isnt fun at all imo
90 Human Paladin
8595
From the afk standpoint I have so much threat issue is exactly the same now with veng as it was when we did X-mulitplier of base threat. I Could still afk after a minute or so of beating on the boss except I may have to move from Y mechanic.. Threat is something so outdated at this point after the first 5s I dont even know why its in the game.

Honestly I dont expect to be #1 in damage, altho I am alot of the time, I would feel totally useless if I did 50k dps like alot of warr and dk tanks I've seen. Just tanking a boss and being there as a meat shield isnt fun at all imo


Must be nice.
100 Tauren Druid
14540
The basic, concise explanation is as follows: The Nth strongest (based on pre-mitigation average auto attack DPS) mob that has hit you in the last 5 seconds grants 1/Nth of full vengeance with their attacks. N is recalculated on every hit taken.


Anything different about casters? (e.g. Mar'li and Sul on Council). Often they'll be doing the most, or at least a significant amount of damage in these siutations, but the way this is phrased seems like they'll always be the lowest as far as vengeance is concerned.
90 Human Rogue
16240
Here’s some details on exactly how the multi-target diminishing returns are set to work in 5.4. Warning: here there be maths.

The basic, concise explanation is as follows: The Nth strongest (based on pre-mitigation average auto attack DPS) mob that has hit you in the last 5 seconds grants 1/Nth of full vengeance with their attacks. N is recalculated on every hit taken.

So here’s an example. Say you’re tanking 3 mobs – we’ll say it’s a boss and two adds. The boss has pre-mitigation average auto attack DPS of 1500k, one add does 400k, and the other add does 300k. The game will form a list of those mobs from 1-3, like so:
1. Boss: 1500k DPS, 1/1 (100%) of normal vengeance is granted
2. First add: 400k DPS, 1/2 (50%) of normal vengeance is granted
3. Second add: 300k DPS, 1/3 (33.333%, repeating of course) of normal vengeance is granted

This would of course continue as more mobs are being tanked (granting 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, and so on). Also, if the second add were to land a hit at any point when the first add hasn’t attacked you in the last 5sec (such as if it swings first), that attack would grant 1/2 Vengeance instead of 1/3.

Hope that clears things up for the theorycrafters.


Does that breakdown automatically follow whoever is doing the most DPS to you? For example, if the second add enraged and started doing 600k dps, would the table shift from:

(Blizzard's table above)
1: Boss 1/1 of 1500k (1500k)
2: First Add 1/2 of 400k (200k)
3: Second Add: 1/3 of 300k (100k)
Total DPS being counted toward Vengeance: 1800k
to

(Option 1)
1: Boss 1/1 of 1500k (1500k)
2: Second Add 1/2 of 600k (300k)
3: First Add: 1/3 of 400k (267k)
Total DPS being counted toward Vengeance: 2067k

or

(Option 2)
1: Boss 1/1 of 1500k (1500k)
2: First Add 1/2 of 400k (200k)
3: Second Add: 1/3 of 600k (200k)
Total DPS being counted toward Vengeance: 1900k

TL;DR - Is that list dynamically updated based on the DPS of the mobs being tanked?
100 Human Paladin
19380
08/06/2013 12:41 PMPosted by Lore
Here’s some details on exactly how the multi-target diminishing returns are set to work in 5.4. Warning: here there be maths.


Just the way I like it. Thank you sir, that explanation should do nicely.

TL;DR - Is that list dynamically updated based on the DPS of the mobs being tanked?


Based on this quote, yes:
08/06/2013 12:41 PMPosted by Lore
N is recalculated on every hit taken.
100 Dwarf Warrior
14290
08/06/2013 02:06 PMPosted by Wreye
I'm not sure why the current model of tanking was ever implemented? Perhaps to offset the lack of tanks? Put up big(ger)dps as a tank, attract more people to fill this role?

Threat itself could have scaled instead of threat via DPS — not a terrible thing since flat threat modifiers are arbitrary to begin with — but it obviously lacks the "wow" factor of dealing more damage. Of course, it also lacks the attendant problems of high tank DPS . . .
90 Pandaren Monk
3545
From the afk standpoint I have so much threat issue is exactly the same now with veng as it was when we did X-mulitplier of base threat. I Could still afk after a minute or so of beating on the boss except I may have to move from Y mechanic.. Threat is something so outdated at this point after the first 5s I dont even know why its in the game.

Honestly I dont expect to be #1 in damage, altho I am alot of the time, I would feel totally useless if I did 50k dps like alot of warr and dk tanks I've seen. Just tanking a boss and being there as a meat shield isnt fun at all imo


then your dps must suck because as a monk you can't just auto attack and gg threat.

The vengeance change went in with patch 4.1 when they gutted all of our threat increased attacks that we used to have because it was regardless of what you did you would get destroyed in the meters and tps. Also at this time only one who used semi active mitigation was a dk.

Now fast forward an expansion we all have some sort of active mitgation on tanks. The issue that blizzard isn't understanding is without vengeance because of how low they put our spells we get slaughtered. So if they really wanna nuder it they need to buff the base of some of our shield am spells that we can get or heals if not were done.
90 Worgen Death Knight
12305
I understand why they did this from a current raid standpoint, but I am concerned that it will massively affect things such as dungeons, challenge modes, and soloing (both current content such as dailies and old content) that they may not be considering. Also, if every mob in a large trash pack hits for the same amount, tanks will get pitiful amounts of vengeance, and tanks whose aoe threat is highly dependent on vengeance (paladins, dks for example) may have difficulty holding aoe threat. This significant of an aoe vengeance nerf might need to be rethought.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
12140
Is no one else going to comment on the 33.333 repeating of course sentence? Leeroy Jenkins, anybody?
1 Pandaren Monk
0
Is AoE another issue with the game? It has gotten entirely out of hand as well. Zerg raids and dungeons aren't fun at all, there is no challenge to them with the exception of some raid bosses.

Pull trash mob pack, AoE burn, rinse, repeat.

Not to be overly reflective, but I much more enjoyed dungeons and raids where you had to have strategies to deal with Trash Mob packs. Crowd Control, Kill Orders, Interrupts, etc.

The reason I mention this is that AoE tanking is now completely necessary for all trash packs. Another reason why vengeance is needed from the looks of some of the other comments?
100 Night Elf Druid
20170
The add change to vengeance and reduction to 1.5% is completely unnecessary. Those don't scream tank putting himself in danger on purpose.

The crit / standing in fire change is fine. Or hell how about some of these ridiculous changes only apply to current content and not old content.
100 Pandaren Monk
16325
My group dps is generally around 120k-140k by the end of a fight.. depending on the boss obviously.

And my melee damage is 2nd or 3rd in my overall damage. Twin consorts last week I was #1 at 166k dps and just melee damage alone was 13mil as my 2nd most damaging ability tied with keg smash at #1.

Veng just scales too much and makes threat a non issue except for my offtank who struggles to hold it after taunting.. Ended up just making a macro to clear my veng buff so I can continue to hit the boss when I'm not tanking.. kinda sucks. Maybe the taunt and veng changes along with keg smash nerf will make it so I dont have to do that anymore.. we'll see
Edited by Shoalani on 8/6/2013 3:34 PM PDT
100 Human Paladin
15450
Let me make sure I understand this correctly.

Take Tortos bats, for example. Right now, I tank 8 bats and, presumably, I get 800% of the Vengeance I'd get from one bat.

Post-patch, I'll get 270% (1+1/2+1/3+1/4...+1/8) of the Vengeance I'd get from one bat. That means that in 5.4 I'll have approximately one third of the Vengeance-based AP I get in that situation in 5.3. (Ignoring the additional overall 17% Vengeance nerf for the moment.)

That is a substantial nerf to both threat and survivability. Is that really correct?
Edited by Branar on 8/6/2013 3:34 PM PDT
100 Pandaren Monk
16325
Let me make sure I understand this correctly.

Take Tortos bats, for example. Right now, I tank 8 bats and, presumably, I get 800% of the Vengeance I'd get from one bat.

Post-patch, I'll get 270% (1+1/2+1/3+1/4...+1/8) of the Vengeance I'd get from one bat. That means that in 5.4 I'll have approximately one third of the Vengeance-based AP I get in that situation in 5.3.

That is a substantial nerf to both threat and survivability. Is that really correct?


Yeah this kinda concerns me cuz when I was dpsing in our 25m raid I would constantly pull aggro from the bat tank (go RoRo!!) and die.. I have a feeling this change is going to make situations like these alot worse. Especially since they removed glyph of retreat.
100 Night Elf Druid
20170
That is a substantial nerf to both threat and survivability. Is that really correct?


Yep pretty much. The add nerf itself is just overboard, but apparently tanking too many adds is wrong or something? The only thing I saw wrong was tanks standing in fire on purpose in current content and getting crit on purpose in current content.
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