5.4 Vengeance Mechanics - Info Request

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1 Pandaren Monk
0
How is that making it worse? DPS need to relearn how to not pull threat... Putting up stupidly high DPS numbers and not having to worry about threat is the larger issue. It is part of the reason why the game is growing more and more mindless. Make DPS accountable for their actions. Make DPS require planning and focus.

However... boss encounters are now tuned around Vengeance in its current state. Encounters would have to be completely re-tuned to account for any changes to vengeance.
90 Pandaren Monk
14665
[quote] getting crit on purpose in current content.


I have a feeling, unless changed, this will become much more commonplace simply because of the veng nerfs.
90 Tauren Druid
0
Yep pretty much. The add nerf itself is just overboard, but apparently tanking too many adds is wrong or something? The only thing I saw wrong was tanks standing in fire on purpose in current content and getting crit on purpose in current content.

To an extent, an aoe nerf makes sense. It's far easier for any tank to survive 8 things hitting for 50k than 1 hitting for 400k, so nerfing the vengeance you'd get from aoe tanking could just be seen as making you get appropriate vengeance for how threatened you are. This as opposed to all expansion where any threatening aoe-tank situation gives tons of vengeance compared to a similar single-tanking situation.

Of course, it's not 1/3rd as difficult to tank 8 bats hitting for 50k than it is to tank 1 bat hitting for 400k, so it's a *little* (read: pretty significantly) over the top at the moment.

I have a feeling, unless changed, this will become much more commonplace simply because of the veng nerfs.

They're cutting vengeance from crits in half, so now all getting crit does is make you take double damage for no reason.
Edited by Ahanss on 8/6/2013 3:47 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
14665
They're cutting vengeance from crits in half, so now all getting crit does is make you take double damage for no reason.


Was fun while it lasted I guess.
90 Human Paladin
12630
To an extent, an aoe nerf makes sense. It's far easier for any tank to survive 8 things hitting for 50k than 1 hitting for 400k, so nerfing the vengeance you'd get from aoe tanking could just be seen as making you get appropriate vengeance for how threatened you are. This as opposed to all expansion where any threatening aoe-tank situation gives tons of vengeance compared to a similar single-tanking situation.

Of course, it's not 1/3rd as difficult to tank 8 bats hitting for 50k than it is to tank 1 bat hitting for 400k, so it's a *little* (read: pretty significantly) over the top at the moment.


Yeah, I agree with this.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Changing 1/N to 1/sqrt(N) puts that curve a lot closer to where threat/survivability come into play - off the top of my head, that should be 8 bats equalling ~4.5 bats of Vengeance?
Edited by Slashlove on 8/6/2013 4:13 PM PDT
90 Orc Monk
11705
Basically nowadays if you're a tank and you're not under some sort of invulnerability mechanic, you just have to look menacingly at a mob for him to attack you. Originally vengeance was introduced in Cata because tanks were barely able to keep threat off DPS, especially in late Wrath.

Now that most tanks stack offensive stats instead of defensive, damage is unsurprisingly out of control. Whoops. I'd hate to say it but I do kind of miss threat mattering. This is coming from a dude that played an Aff lock in ICC sitting at 129% the tanks threat during execute phases after already having popped Soulshatter. Honestly back then it was more fun for me to stare at Omen to see how far I could push my dps than staring at Recount. I miss Wrath Affliction.

Newer players might not know what Soulshatter is. It's this button that you used to hit that gave you a 3 second window to let your butt un-pucker during execute. There's this mechanic called threat that used to be meaningful.

Don't get me wrong, I love being the #1 dps on Heroic Horridon: Except that I'm a tank and it's ridiculous.
Edited by Muster on 8/6/2013 4:13 PM PDT
90 Orc Shaman
16100
I'm looking forward to when DPS have to monitor their threat again... would re-add a nice touch of accountability for their actions.

Though I can see it turning into whingefest "why are all these tanks sh*t?!?!" from baddies who burst on newly spawned adds and get trucked.
1 Pandaren Monk
0
Basically nowadays if you're a tank and you're not under some sort of invulnerability mechanic, you just have to look menacingly at a mob for him to attack you. Originally vengeance was introduced in Cata because tanks were barely able to keep threat off DPS, especially in late Wrath.

Now that most tanks stack offensive stats instead of defensive, damage is unsurprisingly out of control. Whoops. I'd hate to say it but I do kind of miss threat mattering. This is coming from a dude that played an Aff lock in ICC sitting at 129% the tanks threat during execute phases after already having popped Soulshatter. Honestly back then it was more fun for me to stare at Omen to see how far I could push my dps than staring at Recount. I miss Wrath Affliction.

Newer players might not know what Soulshatter is. It's this button that you used to hit that gave you a 3 second window to let your butt un-pucker during execute. There's this mechanic called threat that used to be meaningful.

Don't get me wrong, I love being the #1 dps on Heroic Horridon: Except that I'm a tank and it's ridiculous.


All part of the homogenization of the classes and roles. Tanks should tank... DPS should DPS. A tanks dps should not be make or break for a raid to kill a boss. I am more interested in managing pulls, managing threat.

DPS became ridiculous when every pull became AoE packs. I can't stress this enough. I've been playing this game since the early Vanilla days. I don't advocate we ever go back to a Vanilla style wow, but review some of the mechanics that made this game interesting back then. Threat management was crucial. CC and Kill orders were a must for raids. If you change the whole trash mechanic back to something similar to the Vanilla/BC days you would make tanking interesting again. How much fun is it to pull a large group (or in most cases...groups) of mobs and nuke the hell out of them? Outside of bursting 1.5M dps... This playstyle hinders any strategizing whatsoever.
Edited by Wreye on 8/6/2013 5:03 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
11745
You can't have TPS and AM both being super important at the same time. AM is more fun so TPS isn't relevant anymore.

Does that mean tank DPS isn't completely out of control? No. However it doesn't also mean that the nerf isn't overkill either. Only real way to know is to test it out.
90 Night Elf Druid
12805
You can't have TPS and AM both being super important at the same time. AM is more fun so TPS isn't relevant anymore.

Does that mean tank DPS isn't completely out of control? No. However it doesn't also mean that the nerf isn't overkill either. Only real way to know is to test it out.


What does this do to our Frenzied Regeneration since it's based on Vengeance? For us more casual bears that are just now getting to teh bats and have been doing adds on Horridon; it seems like FR is completely worthless for those.

I don't mind the DPS nerf, it was needed. The way it works now pretty much made the splitting of catbear pointless. It just seems like this is going to adversely affect half our AM in dungeons and raid trash fights (not that dungeons are particularly dangerous ATM).
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
What does this do to our Frenzied Regeneration since it's based on Vengeance? For us more casual bears that are just now getting to teh bats and have been doing adds on Horridon; it seems like FR is completely worthless for those.


Not sure what you're trying to get at. Even with Vengeance DR, FR will still heal for significant amounts on these or other aoe pulls, and if you're using the 2-pc, even low Rage FR's will still take us to full. It's not like you can use more SD anyway since you should have been limited by the recharge on SD anyway and pooling up and unloading that while the Bats/adds are active, and any time you're under the health threshold the priority is to get OVER the health threshold anyway.
90 Night Elf Druid
11745
Alright so I decided to sit down and do maths.

A Vampiric Cave Bat on 10m heroic has an autoattack DPS of ~85k (taken from a friend's log from last week's kill using approxmiate Mastery values) give or take. Log: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-mv8scap3ukp8k2in/xe/?s=4534&e=4844&x=sourcename%3D%22Vampiric+Cave+Bat%22+or+%28sourcename%3D%22Danishpsycho%22+and+targetname%3D%22Vampiric+Cave+Bat%22%29

Which means under the current Vengeance scenario we'd cap out at around ~240k (20 * 85000 * 0.018 * 8) after 20 seconds. The bats die long before that happens though.

Under the new scenario we'd end up with: 30 + 15 + 10 + 7.5 + 6 + 5 + 4.28 + 3.75 = 81.53.

For Tortos specifically it would be really noticeable. Suddenly you can't use partial FR heals to maintain your shield in combination with the 2pc bonus.

If we used Slash's method:

30 + 21.2 + 17.3 + 15 + 13.4 + 12.2 + 11.3 + 10.6 = 131.

Suddenly much more palatable. Yeah, I like Slash's better.
10 Blood Elf Mage
11760
repeating of course


heh heh heh.
90 Draenei Paladin
13095
08/06/2013 07:16 PMPosted by Ariellè
For Tortos specifically it would be really noticeable.


It absolutely would. I would assume that, for future tiers, Blizzard would be tuning those sorts of "many adds handle it" fights around the assumption that the tank tanking them will be sitting at ~100k AP and not ~300k.
90 Tauren Paladin
ONE
12185
08/06/2013 08:19 PMPosted by Tailias
For Tortos specifically it would be really noticeable.


It absolutely would. I would assume that, for future tiers, Blizzard would be tuning those sorts of "many adds handle it" fights around the assumption that the tank tanking them will be sitting at ~100k AP and not ~300k.


Problem being, what about people that are doing Tortos in 5.4 or later for whatever reason? Part of what keeps the tanks alive through them (assuming reasonable gear for everyone in the group) is the tank's high AP.
90 Night Elf Druid
11745
Problem being, what about people that are doing Tortos in 5.4 or later for whatever reason? Part of what keeps the tanks alive through them (assuming reasonable gear for everyone in the group) is the tank's high AP.

Presumably I guess anyone that is doing H-Tortos right now won't be doing it in 5.4, and anyone doing normal Tortos won't have a problem b/c it's so easy (and there's no bubble to deal with).

Same logic applies to CMs and PGs though, so Tortos is just an example.

Edit: Another potential problem, you wouldn't be able to drag the bats to the Turtle tank in this scenario, because he/she would immediately pull them off you if they attempted to lay down any sort of AoE DPS.
Edited by Ariellè on 8/6/2013 8:30 PM PDT
90 Tauren Paladin
ONE
12185
08/06/2013 08:24 PMPosted by Ariellè
Problem being, what about people that are doing Tortos in 5.4 or later for whatever reason? Part of what keeps the tanks alive through them (assuming reasonable gear for everyone in the group) is the tank's high AP.

Presumably I guess anyone that is doing H-Tortos right now won't be doing it in 5.4, and anyone doing normal Tortos won't have a problem b/c it's so easy (and there's no bubble to deal with).

Same logic applies to CMs and PGs though, so Tortos is just an example.

Edit: Another potential problem, you wouldn't be able to drag the bats to the Turtle tank in this scenario, because he/she would immediately pull them off you if they attempted to lay down any sort of AoE DPS.


I dunno about that, actually, especially if you wait a few seconds before moving them closer.

They don't live that long and if you have ~10 seconds of aoe threat on em I doubt your other tank would be able to rip them off of you in the remaining few they're alive.
1 Draenei Paladin
0
Problem being, what about people that are doing Tortos in 5.4 or later for whatever reason? Part of what keeps the tanks alive through them (assuming reasonable gear for everyone in the group) is the tank's high AP.


20% nerf solves that problem.
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