5.4 Vengeance Mechanics - Info Request

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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
People are also 1-tanking Megaera because a fight based on short DPS windows becomes hilariously easier when you can skip a second add spawn or not have to deal with a tank swap on heads, or not play with the choice of whether you keep up a Venomous Head or tank it.

Aside from Wind Lord and to some extent Tortos, fights that tend to feature add waves are predominantly already 2-tank fights, like Garrosh, or Shek'zeer, or Lei Shi, or Horridon, or even Animus.

The idea that this is their solution to people 1-tanking stuff is a bit silly. Especially since for the two fights you could even point to this being a thing, they're more a result of other factors (like Battle Insight healing threat).
Edited by Slashlove on 8/7/2013 11:32 AM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
12040
08/07/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Leeflow
disencouraging solo tanking is not the same thing as encouraging 3 tanking fights.

Which, incidentally, is not the example I was using earlier in this thread. The concept is fine, but the current result is a overly harsh.
90 Night Elf Druid
12805
So, 10man, and stuff. I can see 3 tanking being a thing in 25, but sure as hell not 10.


Why hello there blood princes. The fight were I had to learn how to be a proper bear because three tanking wasn't really a good option. :D

But those diminishting returns do seem steep. I agree that our survivability could be too high (I'm not awesome enough to properly judge that), but maybe the diminising returns shouldn't kick in until about the fifth or sixth mob. That way handling a standard pack wouldn't change, but we wouldn't be able to stand in the middle of thirty mobs laughing.
90 Human Paladin
8595
Basically nowadays if you're a tank and you're not under some sort of invulnerability mechanic, you just have to look menacingly at a mob for him to attack you. Originally vengeance was introduced in Cata because tanks were barely able to keep threat off DPS, especially in late Wrath.

Now that most tanks stack offensive stats instead of defensive, damage is unsurprisingly out of control. Whoops. I'd hate to say it but I do kind of miss threat mattering. This is coming from a dude that played an Aff lock in ICC sitting at 129% the tanks threat during execute phases after already having popped Soulshatter. Honestly back then it was more fun for me to stare at Omen to see how far I could push my dps than staring at Recount. I miss Wrath Affliction.

Newer players might not know what Soulshatter is. It's this button that you used to hit that gave you a 3 second window to let your butt un-pucker during execute. There's this mechanic called threat that used to be meaningful.

Don't get me wrong, I love being the #1 dps on Heroic Horridon: Except that I'm a tank and it's ridiculous.


Except for where you have multiple DPS instantly pumping out 170k+. That's why you have tanks stacking hard on offensive stats; it's just to keep up with the smaller percentage of ridiculous DPS out there. Switch over to a group with an average ilvl of 440 and it will look overpowered and unnecessary, yes.
90 Pandaren Monk
18865
well .. I'm not sure about you guys but I for one don't see a problem in lowering our vengeance lvls ...

I just don't think things like this, are "ok" to happen:

[23:45:22.869] Leeflow casts Chi Burst on Lei Shen
[23:45:22.869] Leeflow casts Rushing Jade Wind
[23:45:23.106] Leeflow Chi Burst Ball Lightning *1501755*
[23:45:23.106] Leeflow Chi Burst Ball Lightning 625732
[23:45:23.106] Leeflow Chi Burst Ball Lightning 625732
[23:45:23.106] Leeflow Chi Burst Ball Lightning *1501755*
[23:45:23.106] Leeflow Chi Burst Ball Lightning *1501755*
[23:45:23.106] Leeflow Chi Burst Ball Lightning 625731
[23:45:23.106] Leeflow Rushing Jade Wind Ball Lightning 431350
[23:45:23.106] Leeflow Rushing Jade Wind Ball Lightning 431685
[23:45:23.106] Leeflow Rushing Jade Wind Ball Lightning *1019258* (O: 16803)
[23:45:23.106] Leeflow Rushing Jade Wind Ball Lightning *1035182*
[23:45:23.106] Leeflow Rushing Jade Wind Ball Lightning *927638* (O: 107481)
[23:45:23.106] Leeflow Rushing Jade Wind Ball Lightning *987699* (O: 47650)
[23:45:23.184] Leeflow Chi Burst Lei Shen *1501755*
[23:45:23.200] Leeflow Chi Burst Unharnessed Power 625731
[23:45:23.200] Leeflow Rushing Jade Wind Unharnessed Power *1036185*
[23:45:23.200] Leeflow Chi Burst Unharnessed Power *1501755*
[23:45:23.200] Leeflow Rushing Jade Wind Unharnessed Power *1036155*
[23:45:23.200] Leeflow Chi Burst Unharnessed Power *1501755*
[23:45:23.200] Leeflow Rushing Jade Wind Unharnessed Power 431827
[23:45:23.296] Leeflow Rushing Jade Wind Lei Shen *1034849*

What's the problem that I can deal 40% of mobs hp in 2 gcd just because I'm tanking half a dozen mobs, right?

That is not because my skills are naturally awesome. That's due to the obscene amounts of vengeance I get while tanking aoe ...

This is in the exact same fight, in a moment where I barely have vengeance (when I run to the next pillar to taunt the boss):

[23:37:01.596] Leeflow Rushing Jade Wind Lei Shen 159340

Or perhaps the paladin did something silly and taunted way too soon and I lost my vengeance before the ball lightning spawned?

[23:39:19.005] Leeflow Chi Burst Ball Lightning 255764

The fact that my dmg can go 3-4x higher in the exact same fight just because I'm getting hit by a couple of mobs instead of being hit by the boss alone ... Imo, it means something is a little off.

We even let some bouncing bolts go off to spawn adds exactly because it boosts our vengeance to crazy levels, massively increasing tank dps.

People are also 1-tanking Megaera because a fight based on short DPS windows becomes hilariously easier when you can skip a second add spawn or not have to deal with a tank swap on heads, or not play with the choice of whether you keep up a Venomous Head or tank it.

Aside from Wind Lord and to some extent Tortos, fights that tend to feature add waves are predominantly already 2-tank fights, like Garrosh, or Shek'zeer, or Lei Shi, or Horridon, or even Animus.

The idea that this is their solution to people 1-tanking stuff is a bit silly. Especially since for the two fights you could even point to this being a thing, they're more a result of other factors (like Battle Insight healing threat).


I'm talking about the vengeance changes as a whole:

- nerfing the % to 1.5.
- removing fire on the ground to trigger vengeance etc.

The DR in aoe tanking is not an isolated change to vengeance. They are changing many things on it to adress several different problems.

And just because you bring 2 tanks in the same fight, it doesn't mean you are actually using both of them. There are hundreds of logs out there of 2 tanks fight where the raid intentionally feed 1 tank everything so he gets crazy vengeance lvls ..

1 tank doing 400k dps + another tank doing 60k dps > 2 tanks doing 150k dps each.

Take Lei shen for example. I spike 1.4 mi dps by the end because of all the adds on me while the other tank is just there to be clear my debuff (while doing ~250k dps).

If we split evenly, we certainly wouldn't be summing the same 1.650mi dps.

The problem is that currently, the more mobs you tank, the better. The benefit of the dps boost of tanking as much as possible, massively outweights the threat of you getting killed in the process.

Oh and I don't need to tell you that when we saw the number of adds in Garrosh, the absolute 1st thing we tried was "let's try eflow single tanking him to see what happens" ... It was fun to say the least. My dps had a "m" after the number .. not a "k".
Edited by Leeflow on 8/7/2013 12:52 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
'm talking about the vengeance changes as a whole:

- nerfing the % to 1.5.
- removing fire on the ground to trigger vengeance etc.

The DR in aoe tanking is not an isolated change to vengeance. They are changing many things on it to adress several different problems.

And just because you bring 2 tanks in the same fight, it doesn't mean you are actually using both of them. There are hundreds of logs out there of 2 tanks fight where the raid intentionally feed 1 tank everything so he gets crazy vengeance lvls ..

1 tank doing 400k dps + another tank doing 60k dps > 2 tanks doing 150k dps each.

Take Lei shen for example. I spike 1.4 mi dps by the end because of all the adds on me while the other tank is just there to be clear my debuff (while doing ~250k dps).


You're getting that because you can use CB and RJW on mobs like Ball Lightning which you aren't actually tanking. It's also the case that Lei Shen has a tank swap mechanic that can be cheesed by a couple of tank specs.

If you think Lei Shen is indicative of an overall problem adaptable to multiple fights, you're definitely reaching.

The problem is that currently, the more mobs you tank, the better. The benefit of the dps boost of tanking as much as possible, massively outweights the threat of you getting killed in the process.


That's not even really "the problem" that you're describing though.

The problem in general is that if you can live through it, it's better to do it. On a fight like Lei Shen where a couple of tank classes can cheese for more Vengeance, and then that lines up awesomely with a couple of bursty aoe abilities .... it's a very specific set of cases. Lei Shen is more a problem of "ShoR/Stagger do weird things" or "RJW+CB do a lot of aoe burst" than "Vengeance".

I'm not so sure that, say, making functioning add-fights change as a tradeoff is a good thing, especially not when the curve is very simple and therefore very rapidly sliding.
Edited by Slashlove on 8/7/2013 1:29 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
12040
08/07/2013 12:41 PMPosted by Leeflow
well .. I'm not sure about you guys but I for one don't see a problem in lowering our vengeance lvls ...

Nobody is arguing that lowering Vengeance in AoE situations shouldn't happen. We're arguing that it's overly harsh in true AoE situations where adding another tank is not an actual option (Tortos, CMs, PGs).

Lei Shen is an example of a situation where DR on Vengeance is a good idea. Nobody actually argues that.
90 Pandaren Monk
18865
'm talking about the vengeance changes as a whole:

- nerfing the % to 1.5.
- removing fire on the ground to trigger vengeance etc.

The DR in aoe tanking is not an isolated change to vengeance. They are changing many things on it to adress several different problems.

And just because you bring 2 tanks in the same fight, it doesn't mean you are actually using both of them. There are hundreds of logs out there of 2 tanks fight where the raid intentionally feed 1 tank everything so he gets crazy vengeance lvls ..

1 tank doing 400k dps + another tank doing 60k dps > 2 tanks doing 150k dps each.

Take Lei shen for example. I spike 1.4 mi dps by the end because of all the adds on me while the other tank is just there to be clear my debuff (while doing ~250k dps).


You're getting that because you can use CB and RJW on mobs like Ball Lightning which you aren't actually tanking. It's also the case that Lei Shen has a tank swap mechanic that can be cheesed by a couple of tank specs.

If you think Lei Shen is indicative of an overall problem adaptable to multiple fights, you're definitely reaching.


I wasn't exactly clear about that, but I'm talking about tanking the Unharnessed powers (the adds from bouncing bolts). 3-4 of them on 25h can have a funny impact on your vengeance lvls.

Tanking Lei Shen alone = 170-200k vengeance, give or take.

Tanking Lei Shen + 3-4 adds = 500k vengeance, give or take.

Due to tank cds, external cds and whatnot, your survivability remains relatively constant. So tanking extra adds causes your dps to goes through the roof.

While the ball lightnings don't feed you vengeance, they are adds that still have to be vaporized in seconds. That is no different than what you said in the megaera example.

"a fight based on short DPS windows becomes hilariously easier when you can skip a second add spawn or not have to deal with a tank swap on heads, or not play with the choice of whether you keep up a Venomous Head or tank it."

You obviously know that, in the last phase, if the ball lightnings jump, there will be corpses. The massive dps I get from tanking 2-3 extra bouncing bolt adds besides the boss, without much impact in my survivabiliy is a win win situation:

- I can delete chunks of ball light hp bars each gcd I use, making that particular mechanic a lot easier to handle.

- It also increases my single target dps, putting me on top dps on the boss as well (in a stage of the fight that is a serious dps race)

This kind of behavior can be reproduced in fights like Garrosh, where one tank intentionally tanks everything (as well as the boss) because his dps goes to absurd lvls ..

It's not simply about aoe tanking, it's about boosting vengeance as much as possible. Tanking adds is just one way to do that (which is obviously only available on fights with multiple adds involved). Standing in the fire is another way .. solo tanking is also another way, and so forth.

All those behaviors have one thing in common: turning one tank in a one-man-army.

The only reason I'm talking about aoe tanking in particular is because this thread is about the aoe DR change on vengeance.
Edited by Leeflow on 8/7/2013 2:13 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
I wasn't exactly clear about that, but I'm talking about tanking the Unharnessed powers (the adds from bouncing bolts). 3-4 of them on 25h can have a funny impact on your vengeance lvls.

Tanking Lei Shen alone = 170-200k vengeance, give or take.

Tanking Lei Shen + 3-4 adds = 500k vengeance, give or take.

Due to tank cds, external cds and whatnot, your survivability remains relatively constant. So tanking extra adds causes your dps to goes through the roof.
....
You obviously know that, in the last phase, if the ball lightnings jump, there will be corpses. The massive dps I get from tanking 2-3 extra bouncing bolt adds besides the boss, without much impact in my survivabiliy is a win win situation:


You were plenty clear about what you meant. What I'm pointing out to you is that tanking 2-3 adds that do hit fairly hard and then aoe'ing a minimum of 7 extra adds is SLIGHTLY inflating the payoff that you get, in a way that's fairly unique to this encounter specifically.

It's also something that you as a Monk get a ton more payoff for because of Chi Burst and RJW, and even because Stagger/Shuffle/EB etc. makes those extra mobs a completely different scenario compared to what a DK or even a Guardian or Warrio would go through doing what you're doing there.

Comparing that scenario to the effect on Survivability for other tanks on genuine aoe tank fights are entirely different ball games.
Edited by Slashlove on 8/7/2013 2:20 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
18865
well .. I'm not sure about you guys but I for one don't see a problem in lowering our vengeance lvls ...

Nobody is arguing that lowering Vengeance in AoE situations shouldn't happen. We're arguing that it's overly harsh in true AoE situations where adding another tank is not an actual option (Tortos, CMs, PGs).

Lei Shen is an example of a situation where DR on Vengeance is a good idea. Nobody actually argues that.


10m Heroic Tortos was done with 2 tanks in the 2nd week of heroics ... It's certainly not a fight that requires 3 tanks or must be done with 1 tank.

nor CMs are balanced around tanks doing crazy aoe dps.

People are overreacting a bit about this ..
Edited by Leeflow on 8/7/2013 2:20 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Heroic Tortos was done with 2 tanks in the 2nd week of heroics ... It's certainly not a fight that requires 3 tanks or must be done with 1 tank.

nor CMs are balanced around tanks doing crazy aoe dps.


When he's talking about Tortos, he's talking about 2-tanking the fight. He's talking about the effect this Vengeance change has for a tank who is only tanking the Bats, not on a tank who is single tanking Tortos and the bots, or on a raid that is kiting Bats.
Edited by Slashlove on 8/7/2013 2:22 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
18865
Heroic Tortos was done with 2 tanks in the 2nd week of heroics ... It's certainly not a fight that requires 3 tanks or must be done with 1 tank.

nor CMs are balanced around tanks doing crazy aoe dps.


When he's talking about Tortos, he's talking about 2-tanking the fight. He's talking about the effect this Vengeance change has for a tank who is only tanking the Bats, not on a tank who is single tanking Tortos and the bots, or on a raid that is kiting Bats.


... I'm very aware of what he's talking about. People actually did this fight with 2 tank in a "regular" way.

- 1 tank on tortos
- 1 tank tanked the bats

or that is unintended to?

solo tanking is simply easier because of the reasons we are discussing in the past pages.

harder to do =/= can't be done.
Edited by Leeflow on 8/7/2013 2:36 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
12040
08/07/2013 02:20 PMPosted by Leeflow
10m Heroic Tortos was done with 2 tanks in the 2nd week of heroics ... It's certainly not a fight that requires 3 tanks or must be done with 1 tank.
I think we're getting our wires crossed here. When I described a real situation that would be heavily impacted by the proposed Vengeance DR your reaction was "add another tank".

If that wasn't directed at what I was saying, then I think we're just miscommunicating.

Your scenario where a Vengeance nerf is justified is totally and 100% accurate. I don't argue with that.

The one I described would be seriously overly harsh when you can't generate more than 200k at a max FR, and you don't have enough resource generation CDs to have one up for every single wave of bats.

I guess in theory you could just chain stun them, but what happens to comps with say a Ret and a Rogue instead of a Warrior and a DK?

08/07/2013 02:20 PMPosted by Leeflow
nor CMs are balanced around tanks doing crazy aoe dps

No, but they are balanced around the tank actually being able to survive large AoE pulls (Hi Siege).
90 Pandaren Monk
18865

The one I described would be seriously overly harsh when you can't generate more than 200k at a max FR, and you don't have enough resource generation CDs to have one up for every single wave of bats.

I guess in theory you could just chain stun them, but what happens to comps with say a Ret and a Rogue instead of a Warrior and a DK?


I agree a 100% on that. I'm not blind to the fact that some fights would get harder because of that. But that is something that would have to be adressed or planned ahead. One or another fight being harder isn't enough to justify not changing that is broken in many other situations.

For example, take Cata. Which fights we single tanked? Only fights that was clearly better to single tank.

Fights that could be single tanked, but didn't offer any real benefit on doing so .. we usually didn't single tank it.

For example Warmaster blackhorn. With the whole taunt/run to the top of the stairs shenanigans, you could do the fight with 1 tank, to put one extra dps. Was it worth it? not really, because the dps gain was kinda nulified by having the boss moving around so much. And it was a very risky strategy overall.

But lets say that instead of having +10k dps gain in this much more risky strat, there was a +100k dps gain. Then it would certainly be more interesting to try to single tank it.

That is what vengeance currently does to the fights we intentionally try to solo tank.

Tortos is the example of a fight that the tank (fueled by vengeance) completely "carries" the group through a very important part of the fight: managing adds.

But this doesn't cause a SUPER HARD fight to become hard. It causes a somewhat hard fight to become relatively easy. So even if you do tortos in the "regular" way, while harder compared to the solo tank/kit strats, it's certainly would still be easier than durumu, primordius, dark animus, lei shen etc etc.

It wouldn't suddenly become the hardest fight in the instance.

People simply solo tank it because it's WAY easier compared to the other alternatives. If solo tanking tortos was akin to solo tanking warmaster (a questionable gain) .. nobody would bother trying to solo tanking it.

08/07/2013 02:20 PMPosted by Leeflow
nor CMs are balanced around tanks doing crazy aoe dps

No, but they are balanced around the tank actually being able to survive large AoE pulls (Hi Siege).


If you are talking about the pull before the bomb boss .. I didn't even remotely try to tank that after being completely exploded by those adds in the 1st attempt.

Ironically, a warrior popping everything, can survive that .. a monk? not so much. We can't do all those crazy things that we do in raids, in 463 ilvl. We had to do the kite + stun + bombs with me tanking it.
Edited by Leeflow on 8/7/2013 3:29 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Death Knight
13965
do we even need Vengeance at all from 6.0 forward? Is this the last dying gasp of Vengeance? And if so, wouldn't that be a good thing?

Mmmm... yeah, with current design, we would need Vengeance.

I do about 45k DPS sustained with no vengeance, and maybe 80-90k burst. Our highest DPS - an elemental shaman - does about 200-225k sustained, with bursts over 300k. That's cutting it awfully close, and the expansion isn't done yet.

Now, that said, it's entirely possible to retune the classes so that we don't need Vengeance, and frankly I think that would be a good thing. Especially since they're more willing to have tanks use former "DPS stats" to tank with.

Remember back in Ulduar, when there was a piece of tank gear with ArP and Dodge, and everyone wondered what the hell the developers were thinking? Now nobody blinks when a paladin takes a piece of haste/expertise gear.
90 Dwarf Warrior
12920
--- do we even need Vengeance at all from 6.0 forward? Is this the last dying gasp of Vengeance? And if so, wouldn't that be a good thing?

Provided the devs could bring themselves to divest, they'd be able do anything they wanted. Tank damage dealing could simply be a static multiplication of some stat that each class would accumulate parallel to DPS over a few tiers — half as much as DPS classes would be fine, although a third or a quarter would be reasonable, too. Survival abilities currently linked to Vengeance could just be re-coupled to (the same) gear-based stat(s). Thus tanks would keep pace with DPS performance, albeit a smaller fraction, and never be in doubt of how second-to-second circumstances affected damage or threat.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
... I'm very aware of what he's talking about. People actually did this fight with 2 tank in a "regular" way.

- 1 tank on tortos
- 1 tank tanked the bats

or that is unintended to?


No, but as I think you and Arielle are communicating, that's what he's talking about as well. 1 tank on Tortos, 1 on Bats. The effect this change has on the Bat tank can't really be solved by "adding an extra tank" because it's already 2-tanked.


For example Warmaster blackhorn. With the whole taunt/run to the top of the stairs shenanigans, you could do the fight with 1 tank, to put one extra dps. Was it worth it? not really, because the dps gain was kinda nulified by having the boss moving around so much. And it was a very risky strategy overall.

But lets say that instead of having +10k dps gain in this much more risky strat, there was a +100k dps gain. Then it would certainly be more interesting to try to single tank it.


The single tank Warmaster strat was also mainly only really used on Normal. The addition of Goriona and Deck Fire made it pretty much pointless on Heroic.

People simply solo tank it because it's WAY easier compared to the other alternatives. If solo tanking tortos was akin to solo tanking warmaster (a questionable gain) .. nobody would bother trying to solo tanking it.


I wouldn't say that. Solo tanking Tortos (tanking both Tortos and Bats) isn't particularly easier as a strat so much as takes advantage of a tool to make pickup easier at the cost of a relatively easy to meet dps/stun requirement, which gets to be gimmicked out thanks to how the Shield works. The KITING of Bats is done because it removes the element of Bat damage entirely at the cost of one failure point, but that has nothing really to do with Vengeance.

A lot of people do the solo tank Tortos thing (especially on Normal) purely because they have a tank that has trouble picking up Bats or find it more reliable to LolPallyHealingThreat.

Which is a lot more reminiscent of what people used to do on things that were 1-tanked like Baleroc. Tortos, Lei Shen, Baleroc, even Zon'ozz/Yor'sahj, Iron Qon, Durumu - these aren't examples of Vengeance's design failing, these are examples of Blizzard flitting on the easy side or letting something slip when it comes to mechanics they intend to promote 2 tanks.

We can certainly guarantee that even with the DR change, people will continue to 1-tank Iron Qon becuase Bubble still works, or continue to do the Lei Shen thing because, why not kills Balls faster? So I'm not really convinced that this is what the DR change is supposed to address; it's certainly not that great as a deterrent.
Edited by Slashlove on 8/7/2013 4:15 PM PDT
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