5.4 Vengeance Mechanics - Info Request


100 Dwarf Warrior
Is there a cleverly disguised "yes!" hidden in there somewhere?

Indeed, it's there. Criticizing Vengeance directly can distract players from the topic, and I've done plenty over the years, so I tried to be impartial.
90 Human Paladin
08/07/2013 12:30 PMPosted by Feanorion
That's why you have tanks stacking hard on offensive stats; it's just to keep up with the smaller percentage of ridiculous DPS out there.

That is not why Paladins stack haste. I can't speak for other classes, but I suspect the same can be said for bears and monks, maybe warriors, and possibly death knights.

I know that defensive stats haven't been "attractive" to any tank. As a paladin, I honestly don't even stack haste. I prefer hit/expertise cap over say, dodge or parry.

Yes, There are certain situations where vengeance is ridiculous and causes tanks to out-dps dps.......But in not-those-situations, which is like 95% of the time, you can't be doing low tank damage and still hold threat against well-geared actual DPS on their initial burst, not with the way threat currently works, and especially in heavy AOE.

It's just so much of what I see as a tank's job (holding threat and survivability), especially for prot pally, are tied to getting as much vengeance as fast as possible.

I could honestly care less if I do 0 DPS after any sort of threat design changes, but only as long as my ability to hold threat and my survivability aren't diminished. But Unfortunately, that's not how the current threat system works, and I worry that my ability to tank in situations where DPS aren't taking personal responsibility as seriously as they could won't be as effective.
90 Human Paladin
God forbid i'm out of that armor set when you look me up.....For your satisfaction, I now have the expertise trinkets on that I usually prefer to roll with when I want to be capped, so you can feel free to judge me again.

Well, full disclosure....after looking up your toon last night, I took a minute completely reforged/regemmed everything I could find to haste, to get a taste of how it is before that whole approach gets gutted when the patch drops. So not-quite-expertise capped anymore. I probably could have tweaked some enchants, but I'm not sure if I'm going to keep things this way, and felt like these changes were enough to experiment.

I guess I should take back the part about dodge/parry. I haven't and won't go out of my way to only equip gear that's typically reserved for "DPS", and by that I mean gear which won't drop if I have "Protection" selected as the loot spec type. That's way too much effort, feels wrong, and from what I can see that in 5.4 devs decided to do something to try to curb that behavior, at least for protection paladins specifically.

Anyway, doing that brought me to about half your haste (up from about 3%), a bit under expertise cap (which I'd previously re-forged into from all the extra hit above 7.5%) and pulled my dodge down to 12% and my parry down to 22% (Compared to 6.66 and 19.31 for you).

From the one ToT wing I did after these changes, I'll admit stacking haste feels really fun, even though I only have about half of what you do. But still feels so wrong. There was one warlock, did about 180k sustained and about 230k burst. Using seal of insight, things literally just peeled off to him in any large AOE. Had a few mages doing about 140-160 consistently also. I think a rogue was also in that range. It was a decent group, as lately-LFR's go.

When you have someone doing 230k burst off the bat to one target, you have to be instantly doing 46k on that target to keep threat on you. If you have another DPS doing 180k on a different target, and so on, well, that's where the threat issues get frustrating for me. Regardless of it being a "them" problem, it happens currently and I have no doubt it will continue to happen in random groups.

I can see you're doing LFR about as often as I am. Are you telling me you haven't encountered DPS doing these sorts of numbers? And that you have no concern once 5.4 changes cause you to OOM in 2 mins if you continue to stack haste as a prot? Or if you choose not to stack haste as prot, as I had been trying to do, you would encounter other issue? And also have no concern that 5.4 changes, coupled with the vengeance changes, will cause you to not be able to hold threat appropriately against DPS who are still scaling through the roof?
Edited by Lanre on 8/8/2013 9:29 AM PDT
100 Dwarf Death Knight
They buffed the passive mana regen for prot pallies Lanre. Stack as much haste as you want and you'll be fine. As dirty as it may feel, if you aren't currently going hit>expertise>haste as a prot pally you're doing it wrong.
90 Human Paladin
thx will do.
100 Human Paladin
Here’s some details on exactly how the multi-target diminishing returns are set to work in 5.4. Warning: here there be maths.

The basic, concise explanation is as follows: The Nth strongest (based on pre-mitigation average auto attack DPS) mob that has hit you in the last 5 seconds grants 1/Nth of full vengeance with their attacks. N is recalculated on every hit taken.

So here’s an example. Say you’re tanking 3 mobs – we’ll say it’s a boss and two adds. The boss has pre-mitigation average auto attack DPS of 1500k, one add does 400k, and the other add does 300k. The game will form a list of those mobs from 1-3, like so:
1. Boss: 1500k DPS, 1/1 (100%) of normal vengeance is granted
2. First add: 400k DPS, 1/2 (50%) of normal vengeance is granted
3. Second add: 300k DPS, 1/3 (33.333%, repeating of course) of normal vengeance is granted

This would of course continue as more mobs are being tanked (granting 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, and so on). Also, if the second add were to land a hit at any point when the first add hasn’t attacked you in the last 5sec (such as if it swings first), that attack would grant 1/2 Vengeance instead of 1/3.

Hope that clears things up for the theorycrafters.

That really helps. But one question will it always prioritize the boss in terms of having the full vengeance granted
100 Human Paladin
Which would likely be me.

Well, that's the truth. :P

Regarding the overall discussion in this thread (I'm not going to dig through and find quotes):

- This is quite clearly directed at reducing the incentive to 1-tank fights that shouldn't be, as well as playing unintuitive tricks to abuse Vengeance for DPS (extra adds on Lei Shen for example)

- I don't think the nerf is overboard, but fights do obviously need to be tuned with it in mind (as SoO will, I'm sure)

- As someone else mentioned, there was a time before Vengeance. I remember that time. There was a limit to how much you could tank and survive: your gear. The 5.0 version of Vengeance relaxed and in some cases removed that limit. This change brings it back.

- My biggest concern is that this is the nail in the coffin for protection/tank spec solo play. It's already godawful slow unless you pull large groups of mobs to abuse Vengeance for DPS. Now that'll be godawful slow too. Hope you have a dps off-spec handy.
100 Human Warrior
- My biggest concern is that this is the nail in the coffin for protection/tank spec solo play. It's already godawful slow unless you pull large groups of mobs to abuse Vengeance for DPS. Now that'll be godawful slow too. Hope you have a dps off-spec handy.

That seems to be a tradeoff that the devs are willing to make, for what it's worth.

Arguments from healers about Brawler's Guild being "healer unfriendly" come to mind, or how doing dailies as a healer is awful and they shouldn't be required to switch specs to a damage dealing role to slog through them.
100 Pandaren Monk
Disc/Holy Priest/MW don't really have too much of a problem with dps. I can kill a single target about as fast fistweaving as I can as BrM, allotting for the 30ilvl difference in my gear.

I have heard Wrath does good damage for Druids though I find Holy Pal and Resto Shaman dps to be terrible.
100 Draenei Death Knight
-,..- but I like stacking vengeance by standing in bad..... Why remove something that adds risk and fun to an otherwise droll fight? If y'all wanted to stem OP vengeance, why not have it scale with hp like it did in cata? That way it at least stays interesting.
Edited by Havïk on 8/9/2013 10:52 AM PDT
90 Tauren Warrior
08/06/2013 02:05 PMPosted by Barru
if they do that much damage apeice the tank is already dead

08/06/2013 12:41 PMPosted by Lore

Still pretty damn high for pre-mitigation...
100 Blood Elf Priest

Still pretty damn high for pre-mitigation...

Reduce it by a bit over half to account for armor. Reduce it by 10-25% for stance mod. Reduce it by another 10% for Weakened Blows. Take out at least another third because Mastery. Count your avoidance against that DTPS, which even in terrible gear for this gear level is probably another quarter reduction. Toss in a bit of overall reduction from the LMG if you're using it, cooldowns when you have them, and breaks due to boss casting/moving/fight mechanics.

The difference between pre-mitigation and post-mitigation is *huge*.
Edited by Nerfheals on 8/10/2013 6:53 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
I'd like to make personal mention (if it hasn't already been covered), DPS classes seem to be tripping over themselves screaming for tank DPS [vengeance] nerves. While I personally have enjoyed the extra damage, I'm not particularly attached to it.

Here's what I AM particularly attached to -- so many of our personal survival abilities scale from the bonus attack power provided by Vengeance. My Guard, Chi Wave/Chi Burst, Expel Harms, Healing Spheres, etc. scale from that bonus attack power. A Guard with zero vengeance is barely over 100k without trinket procs, etc. On a 30-second cooldown, that is eye-gougingly weak and really makes for a horrid ability. Removal or a 'toning down' of Vengeance of too massive a scale will effect a great deal more than just tank DPS, so we need to make sure we keep this into perspective and keep these vengeance nerfs reasonably light. That is, until the design cronies come up with something a little more creative than "BONUS ATTACK POWER" from which all of my abilities (Prot Pallies, Guardian Druids, Prot Warrior abilities too suffer) scale.

I've recommended this before, but I think Vengeance should be its own tank-only stat. Not grant attack power as it does now, but an entirely different static number granted by taking damage, in the same way it does now. Maybe to help damage, half of that Vengeance number could transfer to attack power, but our healing/mitigation abilities themselves should scale from the Vengeance number -- not attack power. This way, we won't blow past all of the DPSers on fights like Raden and we can still maintain all of our active survivability, mitigation and self-preservation without being relegated to more of a "stand there and sponge" role that has for the most part defined tanking prior to this expansion.
34 Draenei Priest
Mistweaver monks are already capable of insane dps, well AoE dps anyways. Still though, I find it insulting to be out dps'ed by a healer. When Im pulling 800k on the trash before Iron Qon.
90 Dwarf Paladin
The reason I came back to tanking in MoP was the fact that I'd be able to be a very important part of my 10 man progression. The damage that tanks can do right now makes tanking fun despite all the hassles that we get, especially in heroics/lfr/pugs. Blizz and the WoW players should be careful about lowering the fun factor of tanking otherwise you'll end up with even longer queues for heroics and lfrs. You'll also have a much harder time getting tanks to run 10/25 man raids.

There is a reason tanks are in such short supply. It has been getting better with MoP tank damage but if you nerf us to much you'll lose us. Think about it.
90 Pandaren Warrior
Was actually wondering about this myself.
@Theck great question and super happy the tank thread got some blue post love quickly.

That being said....

Edit: Just noticed OP is also on my server! :D
Edited by Slunky on 8/13/2013 8:58 AM PDT
90 Human Monk
So why should I continue with BrewMaster spec again??? Why should I que as Tank again...Blizz you better not nerf us or the Q times skyrocket and more people drop there sub fees.....

Pull you heads out of your asses before making this mistake go live.
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