Holy Paladin Stat Weights/Gear Choices 10m

90 Blood Elf Paladin
13920
So I recently began raiding again after an absence since HDS10, and Im stuck at what direction I should take with firstly my Stats, second by gear choices.

Currently Ive been agonizing over mastery. As of right now im going for mastery pieces, followed by gemming Purified, Zen, Sparkling depending on gem color. Goal I had was 2 piece Head/Shoulders followed by mastery pieces, however, looking at sever moderately progressed Hpallies and various websites, I'm seeing shifts too haste/crit. Examples being when I would want to go for Horridon's Tusk Fragment instead I'm seeing Soul Prism of Lei Shen, or Passionfire Choker, reforging to mastery.

Another difference is Waistplate of Channeled Mending vs Refreshing Abalone Girdle Is it the fact that the latter is available in heroic mode, or that it has more sockets?

Sorry for the what seems stupid questions regarding gear. Im almost leaning toward going a more crit/haste>mastery weight for gear, then reforging it to mastery for possible more output as my guild is touching heroics. The fact is most sites cater towards completely maxed potential instead of specifics like mine. Im looking for the best output for a Holy Paladin beginning to enter 10m Heroics.
TL/DR-Im stacking alot of Mastery/Spirit, should I lean more toward Haste/Crit/Mastery with the same/similiar gemming. Being very particular about gear itemization, just wondering if some choices are from a Heroic availability, or stat/sockets.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
Mastery will be a better choice for now. Adding EH makes it easier to cover mistakes while progressing. Not that the other stats are bad or anything. In 5.4 things will change a bit.
Edited by Harpoa on 8/7/2013 5:28 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13920
EH?, and yea, been keeping my eye on the 5.4 changes.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10215
EH=Effective Health

As for your gearing, if you're trying to decide to use equal ilvl pieces, you should be equipping the ones that provide the most mastery. In exampels like the belt from the SPA vendor and the Tortos belt you linked... the tortos belt may not have mastery as a main stat but having two gem slots by default will give a bigger gain when gemming.

It's not that haste/crit are necessarily bad, though. Haste theortically should increase HPS but only because it will enable you to cast faster/reduce the GCD. Crit is just not something you can count on and generally not something we gear for.

As for 5.4, it's still looking like Mastery is going to be the top stat, with haste overtaking spirit slightly. Mastery>Haste>Spirit>Crit is the most common priority I have been seeing.

If you check out the link below there is some good info into what the gains are for different talents/gear in 5.4.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1325162-Holy-Patch-5-4-PTR-Changes-Discussion-Pt-2/page21
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13920
Not necessarily looking for equal ilvl pieces, just understanding if im understanding the differences in gearing correctly.

Everything you said makes more sense. Tortos belt+Zen gems>SPA belt. In the back of my mind i figured some gear choices could be based on drops and gear availability based on progression, hence the question with gear itemization if all i have access to currently is normal mode gear. Also made me think a bit more about gem bonus' and gem colors.

Guess I shouldve added the gearing i intended, would make more sense of my questions.
Head- Lightning Emperor's Headguard
Neck- Horridon's Tusk Fragmentor Soul Prism of Lei Shen
Shoulders- Lightning Emperor's Mantle
Chest- Ionized Yojamban Carapace-Soon to be Heroic
Wrist- Softscar Armplates-Could see these being replaced by Heroic wrists
Hands- Iceshatter Gauntlets
Waist-Already mentioned^^
Legs-Matter-Swapped Legplates
Feet- Ice-Scored Treads
Ring 1-Petrified Eye of the Basilisk
Ring 2- Ro'shak's Remembrance
Trinket 1- Lightning-Imbued Chalice
Trinket 2- Horridon's Last Gasp
Mainhand- Torall, Rod of the Shattered Throne
Shield- Shield of Twinned Despair

Currently gemming primarily Purified/Zen/Sparkling with probably more Artful as I get more comfortable with regen and mana conservation.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11205
Currently gemming primarily Purified/Zen/Sparkling with probably more Artful as I get more comfortable with regen and mana conservation.


Spirit is a purely personal thing, but I've never really run with much more than 12k for normals. I'm not saying you're wrong, because plenty of people run with as much spirit as you have. Obviously, it depends on your raid's ability to not stand in things, and your spell selection/comfort level. Make sure you use SoI and DP to their maximum potential. Keep in mind that mastery also acts as a mana longevity tool, because of the passive absorb. The less spirit you need, the more you can put into other throughput stats =)
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
0
For me personally I like to go a little spirit heavy, my guild loves to go crazy (lots of under healing) for those quick boss kills so thy can parse high lol. Bottom line is spirit till your comfortable then go full mastery.

Note: For progression more spirit is always a +. Also should probably get used to not using SoI for mana return because it will be gone next patch.

Edit) you're missing a BS socket
Edited by Requital on 8/7/2013 8:58 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
3375
I agree with others in this thread that you should be at the gear level you are at to drop spirit and gain more mastery.

So effectively this is what your sockets could look like :

Yellow - Fractured Sun's Radiance

Red - Artful Vermilion Onyx

Blue - Perfect Zen Alexandrite

Prismatic - Personal choice whether you want more int / mastery, spr / mastery, but I prefer just straight Fractured Sun's Radiance.

Also, while mastery may be king - if you gem like above you should switch your bracer enchant to Formula: Enchant Bracer - Super Intellect.

Lastly, while going through your logs I noticed a couple of things. The big one is Talent Choice - I noticed on Jin'rokh you used Holy Prism over Lights Hammer on 10 man, but it appears you didn't even use it once? http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k2lt8al26uuducc7/details/6/?s=4396&e=4571

Honestly on normal I would have taken Light's Hammer since you stack instead of dance for Lightning Storm.

Also I noticed you aren't casting Holy Shock near enough. Holy Shock should be used on cooldown it appears on a 9:30 fight of Twin Consorts you used HS 55 times total, which you could have used it 90-95 times. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ma9aim8ze61psj62/details/11/?s=3094&e=3664

Also your use of Holy Prism is minimal, you should be able to use it offensively alot more and almost with every spike of damage. Especially on Twin Consorts you could have used it way more.

Your buff uptimes are pretty low-ish for Eternal Flame and Illuminated healing. They should be as close to 100% as possible on your tanks its like a Lifebloom basically. Also you're missing out on A LOT of Infusion of Light proc's since you aren't using your Holy Shock on CD. (See buff up-time comparisons for what I'm talking about) :

You - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ma9aim8ze61psj62/details/11/?s=3094&e=3664

Me - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-8i00m7o1dtinv09l/details/2/?s=943&e=1408

Also looking at your Holy Power generation, you are using Holy Radiance way too much to generate holy power on a fight where there isn't much stacking at all.

If you are EF spaming in either phase, you could be alot more useful if you took advantage of your Tower of Radiance, which means when you Cast DL or FoL on your beacon you gain HP.

Lastly, in your Twin Logs compared to mine.... Holy prism for me was my number three highest ability if you used it to its potential, you could have had it that high as well, but it wasn't even in the top 6 for you.

Just some of my feedback to help you : ] I know you asked about gear and stat weights lol, but it's a Wednesday morning and I have nothing better to do. :']

Good Luck and Have Fun!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13920
For me personally I like to go a little spirit heavy, my guild loves to go crazy (lots of under healing) for those quick boss kills so thy can parse high lol. Bottom line is spirit till your comfortable then go full mastery.

Note: For progression more spirit is always a +. Also should probably get used to not using SoI for mana return because it will be gone next patch.

Edit) you're missing a BS socket


Lol.....missing a socket, thats a first:P

As for the parses "Also looking at your Holy Power generation, you are using Holy Radiance way too much to generate holy power on a fight where there isn't much stacking at all. "

That pretty much explained another question, Holy Power Generation. As for gems, Ill consider going Zen and easing up on mana, Im usually the one to gauge a fight, and use mana according so Im not oom. Sometimes I switch to just keep everyone alive, versus output.

Ill probably consider switching Prism for hammer for fights like Jin Rokh, however I see hammer more utilized in 25m.

Old Bracer enchant is a holdover to me not wanting to burn money with the int enchant:P Honestly I probably not going to go with pure mastery, especially since im going toward mastery gear, however ill probably consider it in pieces with little mastery.

Thanks all for the help, Lillipally, thanks for reading my mind and answering 2-3 questions at once:P Feels good to be back raiding regularly, but thanks for the enlightenment, It feels equally stupid not knowing.
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90 Tauren Paladin
3375
For me personally I like to go a little spirit heavy, my guild loves to go crazy (lots of under healing) for those quick boss kills so thy can parse high lol. Bottom line is spirit till your comfortable then go full mastery.

Note: For progression more spirit is always a +. Also should probably get used to not using SoI for mana return because it will be gone next patch.

Edit) you're missing a BS socket


Lol.....missing a socket, thats a first:P

As for the parses "Also looking at your Holy Power generation, you are using Holy Radiance way too much to generate holy power on a fight where there isn't much stacking at all. "

That pretty much explained another question, Holy Power Generation. As for gems, Ill consider going Zen and easing up on mana, Im usually the one to gauge a fight, and use mana according so Im not oom. Sometimes I switch to just keep everyone alive, versus output.

Ill probably consider switching Prism for hammer for fights like Jin Rokh, however I see hammer more utilized in 25m.

Old Bracer enchant is a holdover to me not wanting to burn money with the int enchant:P Honestly I probably not going to go with pure mastery, especially since im going toward mastery gear, however ill probably consider it in pieces with little mastery.

Thanks all for the help, Lillipally, thanks for reading my mind and answering 2-3 questions at once:P Feels good to be back raiding regularly, but thanks for the enlightenment, It feels equally stupid not knowing.


Hey no problem. : ] if you have any other generalized holy paladin questions, you can check out my holy paladin guide(s) on youtube if you would like. : ] www.youtube.com/jarastar2

Good luck, and have fun!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
Mastery & Crit provide equal healing in different ways. Point for point they are "near identical."

Crit gives real healing, but can overheal. Mastery gives proactive healing through preventive damage reduction, but doesn't actually raise health.

That said, in a perfect world, if you had perfect timing, you would want all crit, while your mastery absorbed the instances of lag. We don't live in a perfect world. We tend to take things to the opposite extreme and go all or nothing with mastery, and rely on the other healers for the real healing.

My stance is that you want the stats balanced around your personal overheal %. If you overheal a lot (relative to the other healers in your team), raise your mastery in relation to your crit. If you have a low overheal % (again in relation), raise your crit.

What this does is makes you even more mana efficient, while providing real healing.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13030
Crit is too unreliable because it is too rng based to warrant raising it. Besides, there is already a 25% passive increase chance to crit with holy shock built into the class. Even gemming full crit (and yes, I have experimented with it, because I experiment with everything), it isn't worth it. And when I tried it, btw, my crit was over 58% for holy shock. There was no hps/hpm gain at all over a pure mastery build. Actually, there was about a 1-2k hps loss. It's not a huge difference, but if you're going for optimization, mastery is king.

To OP:
On a different note, Holy Prism versus Light's Hammer. Light's Hammer is useful for one fight in heroic content and that's Maegara. Holy Prism is pretty much the go-to level 90 talent after that.

For normal modes, Jin'rokh and Maegara are the only ones where Hammer is more beneficial than Prism.

One of the most important things about Prism, though, is that it needs to be used offensively as often as possible, rather than defensively. Especially on bosses like Tortos.

That being said... you want to use Holy Shock on cooldown and Holy Prism on cooldown (unless you're waiting a couple seconds for some burst damage to go out before using it).

I've found that hpallies that have a problem with uptime on eternal flame aren't utilizing blanketing. What that means is that you drop 3 holy power Eternal flames on the tanks-- ONLY on the tanks-- and then you roll 1 holy power Eternal Flames on the rest of the raid. Granted, you will drop 3 holy power Eternal Flames on the rest of the raid during high burst damage, but as a general rule, you want to role single holy power eternal flames to keep as many mastery shields up as possible.
Edited by Kyáza on 8/10/2013 6:43 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
Crit is too unreliable because it is too rng based to warrant raising it. Besides, there is already a 25% passive increase chance to crit with holy shock built into the class. Even gemming full crit (and yes, I have experimented with it, because I experiment with everything), it isn't worth it. And when I tried it, btw, my crit was over 58% for holy shock. There was no hps/hpm gain at all over a pure mastery build. Actually, there was about a 1-2k hps loss. It's not a huge difference, but if you're going for optimization, mastery is king.


Crit isn't unreliable. It's just unpredictable. Over the course of a fight you can rely on it to hit x%, but you can't predict when that will be. Mastery's advantage is that it is a stable predictable increase in power.

It's not about gaining HPS/HPM. It's about "modifying" how it goes out. Crit gives real healing. Mastery doesn't. This is a simple fact. Mastery provides overheal protection, crit doesn't. It's eating damage, but it's not healing. The difference is mitigation vs healing.

Mitigation is weighted heavily, but it's about balancing those stats based on personal need. You don't have to go 100% mastery. It's overkill. Crit can be squeezed in and used very effectively. As you said, you saw "no difference" between the builds HPS/HPM wise. They are equivalent stats mathematically.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12925
For Gemming, Blue= Purified or my JC Specific spirit gem
Red = Purified again
and Yellow ill go for Zen
This mix of spirit, int, and mastery means you have to work to run out of mana, just like I do.
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100 Human Paladin
14140
N-N-N-Necro.
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