RDruid optimization

100 Night Elf Druid
12765
Without reading everything here, I think the haste thing Gamex is talking about isn't really the way lesser geared druids, or new druids, should aim to go for. It is basically a build that allows you to snipe, or to prevent yourself from being sniped. It's a build that doesn't matter at the level of content he does. The content is over for him, it doesn't really matter what you do at this point, lol.

I'm not saying that it's a bad build, but I do not think it is the best option people looking for advice should end up doing.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9335
You can listen to the people who have only optimized in one direction and never thought of healing a different way, or you can listen to the people with years more experience who have been doing BOTH builds and optimized multiple styles of a variety of fights at a solid level of progression the entire time.

The choice is yours.
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100 Night Elf Druid
12765
"Years more exp" doesn't = better. That's all.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9335
lol

alright fleurs

Anyways dude, best piece of advice I can give ya is just to try it out, fight to fight. The greatest asset of a healer is often times their speed to react to difficult situations. If the person dies, that's it, but if the heal gets there in time and saves them, that means you keep on going.

This will matter a great deal in progression when there are many close calls, especially while learning a fight (the most crucial time of progression).
Edited by Gamex on 8/9/2013 10:33 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
9545
I am kinda interested in the build tbh. And I always have liked Force of Nature. Would you prioritize Haste over Int, or Int over Haste?
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90 Night Elf Druid
14840
will keeping go by what tigerlady says OP to OP cause i tried more haste over the 3043 and lost just lost heals for not having my mastery so yup waiting for 540 then 13k haste
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100 Night Elf Druid
19920
To be honest, most of this is preference based.

Incarnation or Soul of the Forest? and the best usage?

I run Soul of the Forest 100% of the time. Frankly, anytime I feel I "need" a 3 minute CD - I have tranq up! Depending on the damage, I sometimes SoTF tranq if it is high damage, or normal tranq if it's slower but longer damage.

Glyphed wildgrowth in 10m?

I keep mine glyphed since I SoTF WG on CD. Hits an extra target.

And the best way to handle small AoE damage?

Wild Growth + rejuv people..

Primary, very large stacked healing?

Keep down healing circle, put the mushrooms down, rejuv everyone, WG on CD.

I personally stay with the 3043 haste point then go mastery. I do 10m not 25m.

I have enough spirit that I can pretty much rejuv/heal all I want and not go OOM.

ETA: Most Druids say "glyph regrowth" - I do NOT. Frankly I have seen the HoT refresh on people below 50% and in fact, save lives at times of high damage(mostly if I solo heal a fight or on a heroic boss). I find living seed crap, and that glyphed regrowth doesn't hit that much harder then unglyphed. It just didn't work into my play style at all.
Edited by Xiata on 8/9/2013 11:06 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
13535
13163 Haste will be very strong next patch, particularly for 10-man since the spirit demands are a bit lower. I personally think it will take a bit more gear for 25-man (Heroic) Druids during progression, but that is just me.

I currently run with the 13K BP, and like it. It has many of the advantages Gamex speaks of, plus another Rejuv/Tranq tick :D

Also, 6652 will also be much stronger. With Perma-Efflo scaling to haste, and growing as a % of our heals, that BP will be in a better place than now. So if you can not get to 13K, it is a solid option come 5.4

As for talents, they are all solid. I have preferences for certain fights, but none are "wrong" and each fits different play-styles. I like the flexibility of ToL, and my little tree buddies are fun on some fights. SotF can be powerful when the fight fits it, but I don't like being restricted by it at times.
Edited by Fangthorn on 8/9/2013 11:14 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
10395
My casts get out there quicker. My haste is amplified harder as it gets highersince the raid buff is multiplicative. My ticks are quicker, so mastery is only better once the LAST tick of rejuve hits (even though sometimes this isn't the case). When someone has more haste, more spells get out there sooner, this means that buffs that only last a certain amount of seconds will have more spells amplified on to them.

Try to think of a DPSer who's trying to maximize a dot while applying it to 10 adds that are up for the ENTIRE fight. TEN bosses all at the same time. Application time matters.

Now, try to imagine that often times if you apply those dots too slowly, they will simply fall off before you get the next ones up. These are the moments where haste wins out. Also the mobs sometimes become immune to damage randomly (in comparison, when the player's health is topped).

I'll throw out my regrowths quicker so that I can get back to spamming my stronger spells sooner. As the hot goes on, my ticks tick quicker, and quicker, and quicker, until the final tick of my hot hits..... then the mastery build player's hot hits its last tick, and mine doesn't do one. So their healing surpassed mine at the !@# END of the rejuve, but I was ahead of them on throughput the entire time until then. Also, if rejuve is to be on 10 targets, assuming upkeep on other spells, I'll be on to the next rejuves way sooner than a mastery build player.


Looking at the 2 logs you originally posted rejuv was 40% or more of your total healing and usually more than double your second heal, which was wild growth. Rejuv already has a minimum global built into it so someone with 10k haste will get the same amount of rejuv casts in the same amount of time as someone with 3k haste. We all know rejuv is our main spammable spell so your argument that you get more casts off is mostly moot. Sure you can cast your regrowths faster but they are also weaker, and cost more mana per point of healing done. Not to mention Regrowth isn't even in your top 5 heals, which is how it should be, so why spend so much stats boosting Regrowth instead of rejuv and wg, which do the majority of your healing?

The only benefit that rejuv and wild growth get from haste past breakpoints is faster ticks, but not more. So every rejuv and wg you cast does significantly less total healing with a high haste/low mastery build than a 3043 haste/high mastery build. You get faster ticks sure but each and every tick of a high mastery bull will do more healing than each and every one of your ticks. So I reiterate my initial point. Haste outside of breakpoints does far less for your important spells than mastery, this has been PROVEN mathematically by multiple theory crafters who have spent a great deal of time figuring out how to optimally play the Druid class. As these theory crafters have shown us, with math and exact numbers, how mastery is superior to haste outside of breakpoints they have more credibility than you and your "lol napkin math I haz more experience."

Until I see some actual math showing why I should keep stacking haste after breakpoints I will continue stacking mastery which has been proven to be superior at least until the 13k breakpoint which is looking to be superior (you are still ~4k short of it).
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100 Night Elf Priest
10520
Wow. okay. I'm pretty sure this has gone waaaaayyyyy beyond what the OP was really talking about.

The ONLY reason I suggested Herbalism is because it's easy and cheap to level and more useful than Mining. Leveling up enchanting is a hard sell for someone's alt.

OP, I think the take-away is -- be flexible, try things out, and think about what you're doing.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9335
Until I see some actual math showing why I should keep stacking haste after breakpoints I will continue stacking mastery which has been proven to be superior at least until the 13k breakpoint which is looking to be superior (you are still ~4k short of it).

Don't you understand that healing is more about people staying alive than about padding the meter? Haste saves people's lives. By your reasoning, all paladins in Cataclysm should've gone mastery instead of haste in T11/T12, cause hell, mathematically it was superior right?

I think it's ridiculous for you to assume superiority over someone who's tried and tested both styles just because some other guy taught you what a haste breakpoint is.

It's fine if you think you're right, but I challenge you to give it a shot sometime rather than just assuming, and as we've heard before "to assume is to make an !@# out of u and me." I think you'll be surprised at what you might find when you try it. Though, judging from your responses, I'd probably guess you have far too much pride in your healing style to try and give another style a shot. I've tried mastery after 3043, so maybe you should try haste? Then at least we can have somewhat of a fair discussion.
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90 Troll Druid
12455
I can see your point -- mostly from an anti-snipe PoV. However, I don't necessarily agree that faster application > x% increased healing to all heals. Granted, I do run 25m and have absolutely no issues with my heals being sniped. So the difference between 10m and 25m is vastly different in terms of heal-sniping. So while I can see your point working out better in a 10m situation, I don't believe it's the correct mentality with 25m.
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100 Troll Druid
12080
I have 3 rdruids, 2 at 3043 HBP and my main at the 13163 HBP. I seriously feel inept casting on the other 2 when we're talking spike damage that needs a fast direct heal. And I'm not only talking RG. There is truth that performing one action quicker allows one to resume other things like rj blanketing.

For example, the cast time for HT with 3043 haste is 2.33. At 13163 it's 1.91. That might not seem like a lot but it really really is. For RG, it's 1.40 Vs 1.14. RG becomes a real 'flash heal' at this speed. It's not the 'total amount of casts per encounter for HT/RG' but rather the ability to react to incoming damage on players that need big healing quicker when NS is on CD. Faster direct healing should always be measured in this way.

This doesn't even include the argument from added proc rates for -

Legendary meta
HLG
LB-OoC

It also benefits HotW wrath spam. I think it's worth mentioning. Wrath spam is typically limited to a 45 sec window. Cast rate at 13163 is 1.52. At 3043 it's 1.86. This equates to more damage within that small window period. Throw in BL and you'll barely keep up!

If we're talking about in-between HBPs - well I'm not sure why someone who could reach the next one wouldn't want an extra tick on our bread & butter spell if they could reach it not to mention WG/Tranq. It only makes the argument stronger. But it certainly has the aforementioned benefits regardless.

The "my heals are stronger at 3043 than yours" argument doesn't really hold up if one is able to keep a certain amount of mastery while going for added haste points. An added tick to RJ more than makes up for any mastery loss. People often neglect to mention that the t15 4pc will favor an extra tick in terms of strength more than mastery stacking can ever achieve.

I take ranks with a grain of salt. Every guild is variable in a number of ways and most of them will effect output. 2 healing fights that most guilds typically 3 heal is one such variable. Not having absorbs to counter is another. But that's not to take away the argument of throughput advantages from certain builds on certain encounters.

I am interested in FoN. To be honest, I haven't really bothered trying it out in a raid. I think this is mainly because I haven't come across any blogs/posts/threads showing how it's superior on such and such fight.
Edited by Trollmendous on 8/10/2013 9:08 AM PDT
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100 Troll Druid
12080
Looking at the 2 logs you originally posted rejuv was 40% or more of your total healing and usually more than double your second heal, which was wild growth. Rejuv already has a minimum global built into it so someone with 10k haste will get the same amount of rejuv casts in the same amount of time as someone with 3k haste. We all know rejuv is our main spammable spell so your argument that you get more casts off is mostly moot. Sure you can cast your regrowths faster but they are also weaker, and cost more mana per point of healing done. Not to mention Regrowth isn't even in your top 5 heals, which is how it should be, so why spend so much stats boosting Regrowth instead of rejuv and wg, which do the majority of your healing?


You're arguing "10000" haste rating. While I know you're responding the in 'in-between' argument, that logic fails when we take another tick into the equation on RJ and 2 on WG without SotF @ 13163.

The fact of the matter, most druids who favor haste either stay at or close to a particular HBP or go for the 13163 point when able.
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90 Troll Druid
10040
I sincerely appreciate the debate going on here, its nice to see the different sides/ view points.

I never viewed ( as someone else said) FoN as a viable talent as far as healing was concerned, even though I did play with it in lower gear. Perhaps it is something I should play with again.

As far as SotF goes.....I don't even understand. Lol. The general rule is SM on cd and WG on cd, but the talent forces you to save WG for the SotF buff, loosing some up time in situations where there is solid AoE. Am I just not seeing the use?

As far as the haste discussion is concerned; I don't see it as a viable option for this toon at this gear level (being that I don't have enough present spirit to sustain it). However I am guilty of it on my Rshaman, but that is a totally different class so... lol

Are any of the other L90 talents viable options other than HotW(shear healing stand point/utility and healing stand point)

Also, thoughts on L15 talents?
I have just ran the passive movement speed increase since I leveled.
Edited by Dárkktôùch on 8/10/2013 8:24 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
9545
Are any of the other L90 talents viable options other than HotW(shear healing stand point/utility and healing stand point)


Nature's Vigil is another option.

Also, thoughts on L15 talents?
I have just ran the passive movement speed increase since I leveled.


Displacer Beast is a great choice as well.
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100 Troll Druid
12080
As far as SotF goes.....I don't even understand. Lol. The general rule is SM on cd and WG on cd, but the talent forces you to save WG for the SotF buff, loosing some up time in situations where there is solid AoE. Am I just not seeing the use?


Not necessarily, if you are talking a situation that needs optimal aoe throughoput from SotF and Wg you can simply

SM>Place 3X Shroons>WG>rj, rj, rj>LB>Bloom

As for HotW Vs NV, hotw is static and gives one the choice to help dps if that's something that could help your guild on any particular fight. NV on the other hand gives you another CD which is really strong coupled with Incarnation - not as strong on it's own. Personally I like the static int but I won't say one is better than the other. I just depends.
Edited by Trollmendous on 8/10/2013 9:06 AM PDT
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91 Night Elf Druid
9335
I can see your point -- mostly from an anti-snipe PoV. However, I don't necessarily agree that faster application > x% increased healing to all heals. Granted, I do run 25m and have absolutely no issues with my heals being sniped. So the difference between 10m and 25m is vastly different in terms of heal-sniping. So while I can see your point working out better in a 10m situation, I don't believe it's the correct mentality with 25m.


Technically it's even better in 25m because you'll never ever target cap with rejuve spam because of how many targets are available. That's kinda the whole idea, and also getting off saves quicker.
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90 Troll Druid
10395
You're arguing "10000" haste rating. While I know you're responding the in 'in-between' argument, that logic fails when we take another tick into the equation on RJ and 2 on WG without SotF @ 13163.

The fact of the matter, most druids who favor haste either stay at or close to a particular HBP or go for the 13163 point when able.


Sorry I should have said 9212 instead of 10000. Because 9212 is the amount of haste Gamex has and it's about right smack in the middle of 2 breakpoints.

@ Gamex
The man reason I argued against stacking haste past breakpoints is because I don't think it's a good idea for people who are new to Druid healing to jump into unproven builds before they have really learned to play the class. I actually do think its a good idea to try new types of builds, and it is obvious from your logs that you know how to play your class well. I am actually on vacation for the next 2 weeks so I will not be able to try anything until then, but once I'm back I'll give a high haste build a try before I knock it any further. Though I still think its best for new Resto Druids to stick to 3043 haste then mastery until the have a good grasp of the class.
Edited by Trolljin on 8/10/2013 10:32 AM PDT
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91 Night Elf Druid
9335
08/10/2013 02:01 AMPosted by Catakins
I can see your point -- mostly from an anti-snipe PoV.


A good question here is, if you see something as anti-snipe, can you not argue that it's also anti-imminent-death? The argument goes both ways.
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