Silly haste question (R shaman)

100 Goblin Shaman
8740
Yep- I occasionally ask questions:

What's a good haste threshold (that is possible in my gear) to go for assuming: 1) I have the 5% haste buff and 2) I change out between ancestral swiftness to another talent on occasion? Keep in mind, this one's a gob. This is also 25's.

I just finally got some normal upgrades so I'm trying to figure this out.
Edited by Jujubiju on 8/14/2013 9:19 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
My suggestion is just shoot for the 3764 hbp. If you want to faster casts you can go further in but you are out of reach of the next HR break point so would wait til you get a little more gear. Just my opinion though.
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100 Draenei Shaman
13215
With your current gear, personally I would go with 3039 elw breakpoint and spirit/crit heavy. Once you get your 4 set and around 520ish you should be able to drop that crit and get to 7613 haste for healing rain.
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100 Draenei Shaman
8290
I don't think it's unreasonable for any shaman in this tier of raiding to hit the 7613 thresh, as any mastery contributing to your gear past 50% is, more or less, wasted. I've never really been a fan of critical strike, either. The only thing you should be sacrificing haste for is spirit if you are having significant mana issues early on in the fight - even then, you need to make sure you're using Mana Tide on every cooldown and any mana trinkets you have (ex SPA trinket). Don't wait to use mana restoration CDs - using them earlier means you'll get more use out of them overall.

I think haste really needs to be stressed if you are running 10 mans, and if you are expected to dedicate to tank heals on some fights (Heroic Tortos last night -.-). As much as I hate tank healing, a resto shaman's niche is not 10 man healing. Haste is very important for single target throughput, as well as the extra HR ticks.
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100 Dwarf Shaman
11405
I currently have 9000 haste for the 8800 or so breakpoint (I think that's what it is). I raid with a Holy Paladin and was finding my healing was slipping, but then I started ramping up the haste breakpoints and my performance drastically increased.

I'm not saying that this is, across the board, the best thing for Shaman... but haste and I have always jived and I like it. I'm actually considering moving up to the next breakpoint, since that LMG I have now makes spirit redundant. Still, I have the odd fight where I blow through my spirit really quickly due to needing to straight chain-cast for a good 3-4 minutes, so I'm reluctant.

Anyway, my approach is to go to Mr. Robot, click the stat weights button and pick the appropriate haste breakpoint. If it doesn't give me a nice 50-100 haste buffer (to compensate for the lag issues at breakpoints), I manually set it to where I want it to be. Then I set my spirit to a "comfortable number".

So right now I'm reforging to 9000 haste and 11000 spirit. This is a comfortable point for me, clearing ToT 10N. With your gear you should be able to move up a few breakpoints, and I found my playstyle really opened up past 5000.

As always, your mileage may vary :)
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100 Goblin Shaman
8740
My suggestion is just shoot for the 3764 hbp. If you want to faster casts you can go further in but you are out of reach of the next HR break point so would wait til you get a little more gear. Just my opinion though.


Thanks Harpoa- i wasn't 100% sure if I could reach the next plateau after that.
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
If you can hit the HR breakpoint with AS and 5% haste buff, go for that. HR's supposed to be far more important for 25man than for 10man, right?

When you're not running AS, grab someone's reforge mount and maintain the HST/HTT breakpoint. Even though when you're not running AS you'll pop EM with HTT and make it go through the roof no matter what, HST provides such a decent chunk of our total healing done (and especially so with T15 2pc) that I can't imagine not grabbing the easy-to-obtain 1st breakpoint.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
HR's supposed to be far more important for 25man than for 10man, right?


Not sure I buy much into the next HR bp. Dumping stats into a typical 65-70% overheal stat seems like wasted allocation imo. Granted my gear isn't good enough to get to that level either to do much testing, but it just seems a bit counter intuitive to me. I like the RT hbp and then mastery/crit personally. But once again that is just my opinion.
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100 Draenei Shaman
13215
Keep in mind your healing rain ticks stack av. But you're right it is less important in 10m than 25. I really valued crit over haste this tier when I was running 10. Exceptions when the haste breakpoint will really help in 10 man are fights like magaera, iron qon, raden. In 25m with the meta gem keep that hr down and let that av stack!!!
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100 Draenei Shaman
12865
I do not like haste.

Especially when I have EM. I get all the haste breakpoints I want, when I need them, every 90 seconds.

I still reforge all haste to just above 3k from gear (with raid buff I get 12.5% for elw).

The investment in stats to achieve 25-30% haste from 12.5%, depending on which talent you take (EM or AS) and assuming the raid buff is approximately 7000 secondary points.

For that investment I get 1 tick each of HTT, HST, RT, HR. One tick! 7000 points....and it's not like you are suddenly casting blazingly fast. you might see a .20 second decrease in cast time, NOT ENOUGH VALUE!

No thanks haste! It is true that certain healing comps will make this build feel weak, but that's because people care about their meter too much.
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100 Goblin Shaman
8740
08/16/2013 04:39 AMPosted by Harpoa
HR's supposed to be far more important for 25man than for 10man, right?


Not sure I buy much into the next HR bp. Dumping stats into a typical 65-70% overheal stat seems like wasted allocation imo. Granted my gear isn't good enough to get to that level either to do much testing, but it just seems a bit counter intuitive to me. I like the RT hbp and then mastery/crit personally. But once again that is just my opinion.


Oh when I was still doing 10's, I loved mastery (especially during Cata). Now that I'm doing 25's, it just doesn't feel as effective.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
it just doesn't feel as effective.


It is the big issue with resto mastery. All the other healing classes you can quantify what your mastery brings. Resto shaman have no way to see how much it contributes. It's also much easier to remember all the times that is lackluster more than the times that it is straight friggin awesome.

Would be nice to see a way to actually break it down. Would be interesting to see what the difference between a mastery heavy rampage compared to a extra tick of HR rampage.

But alas there is no way currently to do that. But my money goes on mastery.
Edited by Harpoa on 8/16/2013 11:53 AM PDT
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85 Gnome Priest
6840
Juju-- since you're a Goblin, you've got a different break point than what Harp listed. You get an extra tick of HTT and HST with AS and anything over 3,306 haste (although I'd aim for ~3,500 with the latency bugs). I'd consider never swapping out of AS into EM, especially since you've got the T15 2pc.

Here is a link that details the haste breakpoints that Binkenstein put together:

http://www.totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=41
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100 Goblin Shaman
8740
08/16/2013 11:53 AMPosted by Harpoa
it just doesn't feel as effective.


It is the big issue with resto mastery. All the other healing classes you can quantify what your mastery brings. Resto shaman have no way to see how much it contributes. It's also much easier to remember all the times that is lackluster more than the times that it is straight friggin awesome.

Would be nice to see a way to actually break it down. Would be interesting to see what the difference between a mastery heavy rampage compared to a extra tick of HR rampage.

But alas there is no way currently to do that. But my money goes on mastery.


The other shaman in my group runs a mastery heavy build. On Jin'rohk, I usually can outheal him, but on other fights, it's about even- just depends on the alignment of the stars that night ;).

Juju-- since you're a Goblin, you've got a different break point than what Harp listed. You get an extra tick of HTT and HST with AS and anything over 3,306 haste (although I'd aim for ~3,500 with the latency bugs). I'd consider never swapping out of AS into EM, especially since you've got the T15 2pc.

Here is a link that details the haste breakpoints that Binkenstein put together:

http://www.totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=41


I was sitting at the 3306 breakpoint- wasn't sure if I could go a little higher.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
08/16/2013 04:39 AMPosted by Harpoa
HR's supposed to be far more important for 25man than for 10man, right?


Not sure I buy much into the next HR bp. Dumping stats into a typical 65-70% overheal stat seems like wasted allocation imo. Granted my gear isn't good enough to get to that level either to do much testing, but it just seems a bit counter intuitive to me. I like the RT hbp and then mastery/crit personally. But once again that is just my opinion.


Even at typical overheal levels (and HR overheal is generally more like 85-90%, not 65-70%), HR is still 20%-40% of your healing on every 25 man fight. By bringing it from 6 ticks to 7 ticks (7613 breakpoint), you are increasing your output by about 5%, even at those overheal rates, which is a huge bump.

I don't think there is much value in the breakpoints except for Healing Rain. HST/HTT are bugged and unreliable breakpoints. Extra ELW ticks add such a minimal amount of throughput that they aren't worth the loss of secondary stats to gear to. Extra Riptide ticks generally only account for ~1% extra healing, which again is not really worth the loss of secondary stats. I think the HR breakpoints are the only ones worth caring about.

As far as the OP, if you determine that 7613 is not attainable, I would personally go for the minimum possible haste level and just gear Int>Spirit>Crit. You will get the 871 (441 Goblin) breakpoint automatically. If you are close to 3039 (2588 Goblin) naturally even after dropping all haste that you can, I'd probably gear to that so that you have the option of flipping between Elemental Mastery and Ancestral Swiftness.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
I do not like haste.

Especially when I have EM. I get all the haste breakpoints I want, when I need them, every 90 seconds.

I still reforge all haste to just above 3k from gear (with raid buff I get 12.5% for elw).

The investment in stats to achieve 25-30% haste from 12.5%, depending on which talent you take (EM or AS) and assuming the raid buff is approximately 7000 secondary points.

For that investment I get 1 tick each of HTT, HST, RT, HR. One tick! 7000 points....and it's not like you are suddenly casting blazingly fast. you might see a .20 second decrease in cast time, NOT ENOUGH VALUE!

No thanks haste! It is true that certain healing comps will make this build feel weak, but that's because people care about their meter too much.


Going to the 7613 haste breakpoint (over the 3039 one) gets you
- 1 extra tick on HST (all of the time - you will not have EM up for every HST)
- 1 extra tick on HTT (all of the time - you don't need to line it up with EM if you don't want to)
-1 extra tick of Riptide
-1 extra tick of HR

You are looking at a minimum of a 7-8% output increase from that, with ~5% from HR alone. There is no way that you are going to gain 7-8% output from Spirit/Crit/Mastery. No way at all. You can run the RSS addon to get an exact idea of how much itemization points of Crit and Mastery you need to get 1% extra output, but in general, you need ~3000-4000 Mastery to get a 1% output increase. For Crit, it is usually around 1500.

Sorry, but there is no way 7000 secondary stats beats the 7613 haste breakpoint. And, it's not 7000 stats either; it's more like 4500 stats above the ~3000-3500 haste level that is about the minimum you can reforge to in 530+ gear.
Edited by Tiberria on 8/17/2013 8:13 AM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
08/16/2013 11:53 AMPosted by Harpoa
it just doesn't feel as effective.


It is the big issue with resto mastery. All the other healing classes you can quantify what your mastery brings. Resto shaman have no way to see how much it contributes. It's also much easier to remember all the times that is lackluster more than the times that it is straight friggin awesome.

Would be nice to see a way to actually break it down. Would be interesting to see what the difference between a mastery heavy rampage compared to a extra tick of HR rampage.

But alas there is no way currently to do that. But my money goes on mastery.


There is absolutely a way to easily quantify the value of mastery and how it compares to crit. Install this addon:

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/restoshamanstats

You will probably be appalled with how awful mastery really is. It generally contributes 4-7% of my total healing and requires over 3000 itemization points to be worth 1% extra output.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
You will probably be appalled with how awful mastery really is. It generally contributes 4-7% of my total healing


I realize perhaps you would like a mastery that more effectively pads your meters, but the reason shaman mastery is nice is because it rescues raid members when they are low, i.e., when they need it the most.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
There is absolutely a way to easily quantify the value of mastery and how it compares to crit. Install this addon:


Does it do theoretical or take hard data out of combat logs?
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
08/17/2013 08:02 AMPosted by Tiberria
By bringing it from 6 ticks to 7 ticks (7613 breakpoint), you are increasing your output by about 5%, even at those overheal rates, which is a huge bump.


On a pulsing fight I can see that with constant AoE damage. But in reality most of the time your HR is going to overheal on the later ticks, granted you might clip the tank and get it to be EH. Vacuum and live are two very different things.

As always it is just my opinion though.
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