The gaping hole in Ret's rotation

100 Human Paladin
10635
It's obviously too late to hope this will be addressed in 5.4, but next expansion, maybe.

Basically, for quite some time now I've been frustrated by one thing in my ret paladin's "rotation": that inevitable moment during combat where you're left standing there, doing absolutely nothing (except maybe making an autoattack), waiting for Judgement to finish its cooldown so you can cast it.

I mean, I open with Judgement, then Exorcism -> CS -> Inquisition

By that time, Judgement is ready again. But once I cast it the second time, then use CS again, and hopefully Exor is ready to be cast again ... that's when Judgement comes up as the next thing I can cast (at this point, everything is on cooldown), but I'm left staring at my action bar, unable to do anything at all for 5-6 seconds while Judgement's cooldown slowly counts down. My only "relief" comes when RNG decides to bless me with an Art of War proc while I'm waiting. While this isn't much of a problem when fighting "normal" level 90 mobs 1v1, since they usually die long before Judgement comes up for the third time, it's extremely frustrating when I'm fighting one of the tougher mobs, like a rare spawn or some group-content mob like Kor'kron commanders. And it's extremely aggravating when I aggro multiple mobs and I get to a part of my attack rotation where I can't do anything. Judgement on cooldown basically means 5-6 seconds of free attacks for my opponent.

Note: For the record, I use the clcRet addon to suggest the best "rotation", though it suggests opening with Exorcism and I open with Judgement instead. I discovered that opening with Judgement reduces the chance of that dead spot in my rotation. Opening with Exorcism on a generic level 90 mob pretty much guaranteed that I'd be waiting on Judgement the second time it came up.

Anyway, I have a few possible ideas for a solution, and wondered what other ret paladins think:

1 - Shorten the cooldown on Judgement.

2 - Give us a new attack ability that can be used as part of our regular attack rotation (preferably a melee attack - I feel ret has too many spell attacks and not enough weapon attacks).

3 - Remove the HP requirement from Divine Storm, turning it back into regular attack.

Basically, any of these would, in my opinion, solve the problem of that "dead spot". Standing there waiting for cooldowns on basic abilities isn't "fun". I'd like to have something, anything I could use in that spot instead of standing there wishing Art of War would proc.

My other high-level melee characters, a Sub rogue and an Arms warrior, never find themselves in the middle of combat with no attacks available.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
21020
You have, like no haste. Haste reduces our GCD and CD of our main attacks. More Haste=less down time.
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
Opening with Judgment while running in is okay, but it sounds like you're prioritizing Judgment over CS once you get your rotation going, and that's what's causing your issues (at least partly). Prioritizing CS over Judgment reduces the number of times they come off cooldown together, which reduces the number of empty GCDs you end up with as well.
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100 Human Paladin
16290
We dont have gaping holes in our rotation

You need much, much more haste
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
You're getting trapped using judgment before CS when both are off CD.. you're effectively making CS have a 25% longer CD than it actually does.

Your haste is really low, and that makes the problem worse. But you basically haven't reforged anything, and I'm not really sure what you're aiming on for hit and expertise, but you can easily pick up about 2% more haste without touching those stats.
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100 Human Paladin
10635
Yeah, I know about Haste. At the moment I've been picking up new PvE gear (basically, putting proper PvE gear in the slots occupied by my PvP gear) and I've been waiting until I've got the slots filled before I reforge everything, instead of needing to reforge everything every time I pick up a new piece of gear. But when I was running around wearing almost all PvP gear, reforged to give me plenty of Haste, I was still running into the same problem. But I'll go ahead and reforge what I've got; all I still need for my PvE set is that last trinket, which probably won't be reforgeable anyway. (Okay, I should probably get a PvE cloak as well, but the 496 VP cloak from the Kirin Tor isn't much different from the 496 Tyrannical PvP cloak.)

I'm willing to admit that I may not be approaching my rotation properly.

're getting trapped using judgment before CS when both are off CD.. you're effectively making CS have a 25% longer CD than it actually does.

Well, once I've gone Judge -> Exor -> CS -> Inq in sequence, it becomes a matter of just using whatever ability happens to be off cooldown at the moment, casting Inq if necessary when I have 3 HP, or using TV otherwise. I very rarely have two things off CD at the same time once I'm in combat. (And, well, I'm not wasting Avenging Wrath and GotAK on generic mobs.)
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
08/14/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Majintherm
You have, like no haste. Haste reduces our GCD and CD of our main attacks. More Haste=less down time.

08/14/2013 03:53 PMPosted by Cayse
Your haste is really low, and that makes the problem worse.

I don't know where people keep getting this misinformation. Haste doesn't reduce downtime until you're past 50% haste. It reduces the CD and GCD in lockstep, so you don't get to fill more globals with abilities; you get more GCDs at the same rate that you get more abilities.
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100 Human Paladin
10635
It's so easy to look this stuff up, OP. You didn't even try to research ret stats/rotation before posting this, did you.

The problem is that every resource I've looked at in the past starts from the assumption that the reader is a raider looking to optimize performance against raid bosses. The discussions always veer off into raid stuff that doesn't make much sense to non-raiders like me. I play almost entirely solo, except for things like Galleon, Sha, Nalak, and Kor'kron Commanders. I'm already familiar with my stat priorities (see my previous post - at the moment I've been waiting to fill out my PvE set before reforging). And as I've admitted, I may not be approaching my rotation optimally. The clcRet addon claims to be "suggesting" the optimal rotation, based on Elitist Jerks recommendations, but still leaves me with that "hole" while I wait for Judgement.

Edit: Anyway, I'm off to reforge. No need to wait until I've bought that second trinket, I guess.
Edited by Eilyssana on 8/14/2013 4:25 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
I don't know where people keep getting this misinformation. Haste doesn't reduce downtime until you're past 50% haste. It reduces the CD and GCD in lockstep, so you don't get to fill more globals with abilities; you get more GCDs at the same rate that you get more abilities.

It doesn't remove empty GCDs but it does reduce the actual time you spend not doing anything.
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
The discussions always veer off into raid stuff that doesn't make much sense to non-raiders like me. I play almost entirely solo, except for things like Galleon, Sha, Nalak, and Kor'kron Commanders

To be fair, world bosses and Kor'kron commanders require the same levels of hit and expertise as raid bosses, so if you're doing them often going for those caps is worth doing. Otherwise there's really no difference in stat priorities between raiding and questing; you just need less hit and expertise.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
08/14/2013 04:23 PMPosted by Keten
It doesn't remove empty GCDs but it does reduce the actual time you spend not doing anything.

In one single wait, yes, but as a percentage of total time, no.
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
In one single wait, yes, but as a percentage of total time, no.

How? It's reducing the time between attacks linearly, as you said. The time that was shaved off isn't being moved elsewhere, it simply disappears. Unless there's some time wizardry in effect here, you will spend less time not attacking overall.
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93 Dwarf Paladin
15135
As both the GCD and our ACDs scale linearly with haste, overall downtime in rotation really isn't going to change much. We're basically gaining globals at the exact same rate we shave time off our skills. So we're not gaining any more attacks than we have globals in which to use them until we hit the global cap at 50%. However, with more haste we do get more frequent AoW procs which does reduce the overall waiting by an incredibly small amount.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
08/14/2013 04:44 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
However, with more haste we do get more frequent AoW procs which does reduce the overall waiting by an incredibly small amount.

Nope. Your AoW procs scale with with your GCDs at the same rate again.

In fact, until 50% haste your wait time increases with haste, as level 90 talents take up fewer globals.

How? It's reducing the time between attacks linearly, as you said. The time that was shaved off isn't being moved elsewhere, it simply disappears.

Let's take an incredibly simplified version of the rotation. You have, at 0% haste, two abilities with 4.5s CD each, and a 1.5s GCD. So every 4.5s, you do two abilities and wait 1.5s. Add in 30% haste, and now you have two abilities with 3.46s CDs and a 1.153s GCD. Every 3.46s you do two abilities and wait 1.15s. Sure, your wait time per wait is less, but this wait time will come up more often.

Let's take a 31140s time period (super long, but it's easy to work with). In that amount of time, with 0% haste, you'd go through 6920 cycles, waiting 1.5s each time, and wait a total of 10380s, or 1/3 of the time. With 30% haste, you'd go through 9000 cycles, waiting 1.153s each time, for a total of 10377s (difference due to rounding), or 1/3 the time.

Until you break the GCD cap, haste only reduces the length of any one wait, but makes you wait more often.

tl;dr: the time is, in fact, being moved elsewhere
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13295
There are 'pauses" but no where near as bad as it used to be.
with my 520 hogepoge of PvE gear this is what i am looking at without raid buffs.

CS base 4.5 , mine 3.75
J base 6 mine 5
Exo base 15 mine 12.5

I prolly have a average haste of 20% , i know i see heroic gear players with much higher tho. I find the pauses are fine when they happen.

I would love to have much higher haste and get my cs down down to 3 seconds, and judge around 4, i will prolly have to wait for 5.4.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13295
08/14/2013 05:20 PMPosted by Elidra
However, with more haste we do get more frequent AoW procs which does reduce the overall waiting by an incredibly small amount.

Nope. Your AoW procs scale with with your GCDs at the same rate again.

In fact, until 50% haste your wait time increases with haste, as level 90 talents take up fewer globals.

How? It's reducing the time between attacks linearly, as you said. The time that was shaved off isn't being moved elsewhere, it simply disappears.

Let's take an incredibly simplified version of the rotation. You have, at 0% haste, two abilities with 4.5s CD each, and a 1.5s GCD. So every 4.5s, you do two abilities and wait 1.5s. Add in 30% haste, and now you have two abilities with 3.46s CDs and a 1.153s GCD. Every 3.46s you do two abilities and wait 1.15s. Sure, your wait time per wait is less, but this wait time will come up more often.

Let's take a 31140s time period (super long, but it's easy to work with). In that amount of time, with 0% haste, you'd go through 6920 cycles, waiting 1.5s each time, and wait a total of 10380s, or 1/3 of the time. With 30% haste, you'd go through 9000 cycles, waiting 1.153s each time, for a total of 10377s (difference due to rounding), or 1/3 the time.

Until you break the GCD cap, haste only reduces the length of any one wait, but makes you wait more often.

tl;dr: the time is, in fact, being moved elsewhere


Not sure if this is relevant but AOW procs and Exo got pushed back to to last in our rotation now. Our new priority is Inq > 5HP TV > ES > HoW > CS > Judge > Exo > 3-4HP TV (> SS)
CS hits harder than Exo now.
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100 Tauren Paladin
12015
Let's take an incredibly simplified version of the rotation. You have, at 0% haste, two abilities with 4.5s CD each, and a 1.5s GCD. So every 4.5s, you do two abilities and wait 1.5s. Add in 30% haste, and now you have two abilities with 3.46s CDs and a 1.153s GCD. Every 3.46s you do two abilities and wait 1.15s. Sure, your wait time per wait is less, but this wait time will come up more often.

That sure sounds like time wizardry to me. If the reduction to both the cooldowns and GCD is linear, as everyone believes it to be, then that time cannot be moved elsewhere. Moving the time to another location would cause an unhasted and a hasted rotation to be different, making haste's effects no longer linear.
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93 Dwarf Paladin
15135
Moving the time to another location would cause an unhasted and a hasted rotation to be different, making haste's effects no longer linear.


The rotation does change with haste; the priority does not...And that just further compounds the issues of nomenclature we've been dealing with for years. >_<

As haste changes our ACDs and GCD, we're very seldom hitting the exact same button sequence (rotation) such that globals are being filled in a somewhat random way. I say "somewhat random" because we are still governed by our priority list as to which skill is best when any others are available.
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