Patch 5.4 Developer Interviews - Updated 8.26

90 Worgen Hunter
2480
I listend to the Dave Kosak interview, and its just disappointing to see that a leading dev does not understand the Alliance playerbase,

and more disappointing that he expects us Alliance playerbase to fist-pump because he said they gave fist-pumping moments (WHICH WERE NOT) to Alliance players.

Do they even read the forums at all?
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Community Manager
I listend to the Dave Kosak interview, and its just disappointing to see that a leading dev does not understand the Alliance playerbase,

and more disappointing that he expects us Alliance playerbase to fist-pump because he said they gave fist-pumping moments (WHICH WERE NOT) to Alliance players.

Do they even read the forums at all?

Read the forums? Sure. We also send them reports of the hot topics on the forums, which oftentimes include Alliance concerns about story development.

Take feedback from the forums as design gospel and an appropriate summation of all player opinions? No.
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90 Draenei Paladin
16995
Take feedback from the forums as design gospel and an appropriate summation of all player opinions? No.


Then just where do you take your player opinions from?

Because the fan sites and the forums have been saying the same thing about the Alliance for two expansions now.

The interview was very depressing to watch since it is very clear that the people in charge don't get it in the slightest.

But that will just be brushed off as standard forum whining I guess.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
6310
Kudos, Mr. Zarhym. Alliance fanboy here, from 06. still alliance fanboy. I dont think most of the player base agrees with the vocal few.......I feel that we know knocking down Ogrimmars walls is a fist pump. I feel we know the developers opinions are balanced , because not only are they good storytellers, IT WOULD BE BAD BUSINESS OTHERWISE. Come on now....tin foil hats aside people. Ive been here since 06, and I'm still excited.....
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90 Human Warlock
0
I listend to the Dave Kosak interview, and its just disappointing to see that a leading dev does not understand the Alliance playerbase,

and more disappointing that he expects us Alliance playerbase to fist-pump because he said they gave fist-pumping moments (WHICH WERE NOT) to Alliance players.

Do they even read the forums at all?

Read the forums? Sure. We also send them reports of the hot topics on the forums, which oftentimes include Alliance concerns about story development.

Take feedback from the forums as design gospel and an appropriate summation of all player opinions? No.

Strawman and... strawman. No one is asking that forums be taken as design gospel, nor is it a summation of all player opinions (which obviously would require something like a poll sent to each and every player).

However, what's also obvious is that forums provide a rough barometer of players reactions. Anyone can go to the forums and get a rough idea of players reactions. Its is 95% positive? 95% negative? Split 50/50?

Then look for the rare, excellent posters. The folks who are not hotheads about some particular issue, but are long time fans -- fans who can think and weigh thing objectively -- and who can write well and calmly. What are they saying?

If the lore was written so that the Alliance has been presented with a string of victories, then that should clearly be reflected in forum reactions. If it is something that supposed to thrill and excite the player, then it should be at least 50% of the forum reaction. The excellent posters should be even more favorable as a group.

Same thing with "fist pumping moment". At least 50% of forum reaction should see it as exactly that. And again the majority of excellent posters should see it that way.

[Why 50%? The actual player reaction should be much higher. But folks tend not to post unless they have a complaint. That skews the forum towards the negative. So 95% favorable reaction among players is probably going to look more like 50% favorable on the forums.]

What we see on the forums is an overwhelmingly negative reaction from the Alliance. Almost no Alliance poster sees "string of alliance victories" or a "fist pumping moment". More specifically almost no Alliance poster sees the Alliance fight in SoO as a "fist pumping moment" or as "conquering an enemy capital".

And what are many of the (Alliance oriented) excellent posters doing? After long arguing against this stuff, they're quitting the game. These are folks who have played the game for a long time, and do not want to quit -- but they just can't tolerate the Alliance story line anymore.

TL:DR; Don't strawman alliance complaints. This is not a few voices, this is not even close to 50%. Its an overwhelming, prolonged negative reaction. It is a reaction that should have set off alarm bells at Blizzard long ago -- alarm bells followed by corrective actions. That Blizzard refuses to even acknowledge the accuracy of the reaction says volumes about their determination to ignore the Alliance PoV.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11420
Personally alliance story or fist pumping moments can go down the drain, Alliance won all the wars against the horde so far, and they will do so again with this upcoming patch. Yet, it isn't enough for these alliance players to win yet another war against the Horde, they want to humiliate us, throw us on the ground spit on our faces then kill us. They want constant string of victories constantly without any causalities. They want to make the Horde look like it is nothing and the Horde couldn't even hold a blade well. Thats what I hear and see on these forums. And i'm sick of it roll horde or don't say anything at all.
Edited by Puré on 8/27/2013 9:15 PM PDT
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However, what's also obvious is that forums provide a rough barometer of players reactions. Anyone can go to the forums and get a rough idea of players reactions. Its is 95% positive? 95% negative? Split 50/50?

Mmm - they actually can't get a rough idea of players' reactions. They can get get a rough idea of the reactions of the mouthiest, frothiest, most malcontented and possibly psychotic small percentage of players.
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90 Human Priest
13475
I would just like a story about the alliance. Nothing bad has to happen to the horde at all. They don't even have to show up, just an interesting story about the alliance.

Edited to add, a story reflected in game.
Edited by Donjulia on 8/27/2013 9:51 PM PDT
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7 Dwarf Shaman
0
I listend to the Dave Kosak interview, and its just disappointing to see that a leading dev does not understand the Alliance playerbase,

and more disappointing that he expects us Alliance playerbase to fist-pump because he said they gave fist-pumping moments (WHICH WERE NOT) to Alliance players.

Do they even read the forums at all?

Read the forums? Sure. We also send them reports of the hot topics on the forums, which oftentimes include Alliance concerns about story development.

Take feedback from the forums as design gospel and an appropriate summation of all player opinions? No.


And why exactly is the concerns and opinions of forum goers implied to be less valuable?
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58 Draenei Death Knight
6515
He didn't say less valuable. He said it's not taken as the ultimate definitive standpoint of all players. Your victim mentality is getting a bit sad. Step back and breathe.
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90 Undead Mage
8835
I understand this is a "forum" to express concerns, ideas and general wow info but the amount of complaining and whining is staggering.

Can't people simply enjoy the game for whatever it is instead of swamping the forums with negativity? If anyone new was to land here they certainly wouldn't be convinced to give it a go if this is any indication as to the well being of the game population.

The same goes for the in game vitriol and venom. A simple "can someone help me I'm new" question in TC is more often than not met with hostility and nastiness.

Although not representative of the majority, it's what gets seen most often. If people want this game to survive how about we as a community try to support it instead of undermining it. This nasty troll like sub group is like a sore spreading throughout an otherwise great community and game.
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90 Human Paladin
9120
Personally alliance story or fist pumping moments can go down the drain, Alliance won all the wars against the horde so far, and they will do so again with this upcoming patch. Yet, it isn't enough for these alliance players to win yet another war against the Horde, they want to humiliate us, throw us on the ground spit on our faces then kill us. They want constant string of victories constantly without any causalities. They want to make the Horde look like it is nothing and the Horde couldn't even hold a blade well. Thats what I hear and see on these forums. And i'm sick of it roll horde or don't say anything at all.


If that is all you hear and see on these forums in regards to Alliance story development concerns, then you are blind and deaf. If not, go re-read them again.
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90 Human Paladin
9120
I understand this is a "forum" to express concerns, ideas and general wow info but the amount of complaining and whining is staggering.

Can't people simply enjoy the game for whatever it is instead of swamping the forums with negativity? If anyone new was to land here they certainly wouldn't be convinced to give it a go if this is any indication as to the well being of the game population.

The same goes for the in game vitriol and venom. A simple "can someone help me I'm new" question in TC is more often than not met with hostility and nastiness.

Although not representative of the majority, it's what gets seen most often. If people want this game to survive how about we as a community try to support it instead of undermining it. This nasty troll like sub group is like a sore spreading throughout an otherwise great community and game.


I hope you are not trying to equate toxic wow players with legitimate Alliance concerns with the way that Alliance story is being presented in game.

Because that would just be wrong. Very wrong.
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90 Human Paladin
9120

However, what's also obvious is that forums provide a rough barometer of players reactions. Anyone can go to the forums and get a rough idea of players reactions. Its is 95% positive? 95% negative? Split 50/50?

Mmm - they actually can't get a rough idea of players' reactions. They can get get a rough idea of the reactions of the mouthiest, frothiest, most malcontented and possibly psychotic small percentage of players.


It would be futile to try to determine how much the WoW forums actually represent the entire WoW community, that's just common sense; that's not what the forums are for.

What blizzard can and often does do, I'm sure, is to find reasonable discourse on what, in this case, problems the Alliance players have with the way the Alliance story is being presented, or not presented, and to differentiate that from those crying for more of this or that. Pick up on the good posts and weed out the rest.

Although, often times it seems that the crazies get more attention from Blizzard, and horde players
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90 Draenei Paladin
16995
TL:DR; Don't strawman alliance complaints. This is not a few voices, this is not even close to 50%. Its an overwhelming, prolonged negative reaction. It is a reaction that should have set off alarm bells at Blizzard long ago -- alarm bells followed by corrective actions. That Blizzard refuses to even acknowledge the accuracy of the reaction says volumes about their determination to ignore the Alliance PoV.


I wish I could like this post more then once.

To imply that the problems people have with the way the Alliance story has been presented over the past two expansions is just a vocal few on the forums is insulting.

But after two expansions of this and then the recent interviews with Kosak saying we've been given an awesome story and should be so excited on one end and GC saying story doesn't matter on the other everyone might as well just shut up about it.

Because obviously nothing is going to change.
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90 Human Warlock
8055
08/14/2013 08:12 PMPosted by Zarhym
I wonder why Chris Metzen isn't up for these interviews?

He's not typically a part of the interview rounds for patches. We focus on the folks directly involved in designing and implementing the content.

However! I'm setting up an interview for The Instance with Chris Metzen and other members of our Creative Development team to discuss the making of "The Burdens of Shaohao" animated series. I'm doing the same with WoW Insider and lead story developer [url="https://twitter.com/MickyNeilson"]Micky Neilson[/url]. I'll add them to the list tomorrow once all the details are set. :)


Unrelated-ish..but any inside news on The Dark Below?
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Kudos, Mr. Zarhym. Alliance fanboy here, from 06. still alliance fanboy. I dont think most of the player base agrees with the vocal few.......I feel that we know knocking down Ogrimmars walls is a fist pump. I feel we know the developers opinions are balanced , because not only are they good storytellers, IT WOULD BE BAD BUSINESS OTHERWISE. Come on now....tin foil hats aside people. Ive been here since 06, and I'm still excited.....


You can't do nothing, without the trolls help! That is how pathetic you alliance are!
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62 Night Elf Priest
1070
I listend to the Dave Kosak interview, and its just disappointing to see that a leading dev does not understand the Alliance playerbase,

and more disappointing that he expects us Alliance playerbase to fist-pump because he said they gave fist-pumping moments (WHICH WERE NOT) to Alliance players.

Do they even read the forums at all?

Read the forums? Sure. We also send them reports of the hot topics on the forums, which oftentimes include Alliance concerns about story development.

Take feedback from the forums as design gospel and an appropriate summation of all player opinions? No.


Zarhym,

The issue the Alliance playerbase is having is, well... Despite what the devs feel and think (not to discount their opinions, but turnabout is fair play), the vocal group spread throughout the fan sites, forums in both US and EU, as well as Scrolls of Lore and the various twitter bugs, have been very clear.

We don't care about victories. They are not, and never really were, the issue. Cataclysm is a good example of this. The Alliance won quite a bit of Ashenvale, for instance. It didn't matter. Yes, some "visible" victories would be nice.

But the problem is, the victories are not the things that matter. Story representation, over-homogenization of our races (Elune being retconed to use the light, Stormwind banner being used to represent the Alliance) lack of racial representation, lack of faction identity, lack of story presentation and explanation (High King is a prime example. The Story teams claim it's like the Supreme Allied Commander and has no other benefits. So why change his title from Supreme Allied Commander, which he had?), lack of respect for characters and races. I'll point to Tyrande and the Night Elves in general for that one.

We get that our voices shouldn't be taken for gospel. It IS your (your being Blizzard, of course) story, after all. But what you've "been" doing has largely made the problems worse for the last two expansions. The player complaints haven't lightened up, the same fan sites and forums go on about the same things.

We don't doubt that Blizzard "wants" to make Alliance fans happy. But, yes.. We have to question how much of our feedback is received when at least two occasions the feedback that was said to have been received....wasn't the feedback that was given (Tyrande and players not liking her being fierce, and players not liking espionage in 5.3).

We know it's your story. We know that you may or may not agree with what we are telling you the problem is.

However, and I can't state enough how much I don't mean this to sound as harsh as it is.... It's really, really, really, not fair to those fans who "have" given you years worth of feedback that go, in many ways, directly against the way things have panned out to have a developer come out and say "Pssh, we tried to give them all these awesome moments. Look at all these strings of victories! There really isn't pleasing the Alliance. I mean, come on, what else can we do! We are trying to not alienate the Horde!"

It's... It's wrong. We have, as a group, told you the issues. The issues have, more or less, been universally agreed on throughout the fanbase that is active throughout the various stories when interested in the lore (to be fair, many of those sites intermingle). The way to go about those goals? Certainly a case of the fans not agreeing with each other... But the core issues? It's not a small percentage of forum users saying it.

I don't think that most of the Alliance believes that Blizzard is intentionally trying to screw the Alliance over. And, I can even, on some level, see what Blizzard is trying to do with the Siege and the victories.

But here's the problem.. By giving us those victories, our feedback on those issues that exist will be drowned out as "whining". Issues that still exist. That will continue to exist, and that fans have no way of knowing on if it reaches the Devs (and, I'm sorry, but when every time they say something on "come on Alliance" misses the point, it looks like they don't get it) will continue to give it, but in the end, it will be brushed aside.

Just like it is now by many of the Horde players. By, seemingly, Kosak. Yes... We are raiding Org. Yes... .We are killing Garrosh. Then what? The Alliance didn't particularly come together, though you guys say they did. They didn't have any "strife" to begin with outside of the Council, and then that was never resolved even in Blood in the Snow.

It's something you guys say, but show no evidence. The Alliance is, more or less, in the same place it was in Wrath. Varian as the Supreme Allied Commander, the other races...doing something? It's never really shown, explained, and the over abundance of humans in the story line kind of...makes the faction feel hollow? The difference is, of course, dalaran... But, to be honest, it doesn't change the position in the story. The Alliance is still in teh same place. A bunch of races that get along, with no strife shown, and following a guy who, by all acounts, is only getting the job because he's a human for nostolgia's sake.

What it boils down to is, by saying "The Alliance just can't be pleased" while not even acknowledging the very real and very prevailant feedback given, you guys are kinda saying how ungrateful that guy dying of thirst is from getting upset when he asked for water only to be given a slice of pie.

Sure, pie is...nice? But that guy is still dying of thirst. And while the Alliance may win, they are still sitting in the same place as they were in Wrath. No identity. No racial tension. No flavor. No progression.

And like pie, when you are not dying of thirst, no one will complain about victories.. But when they are? Pie is "really" the last thing that people want.
Edited by Syryna on 8/27/2013 11:49 PM PDT
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90 Undead Mage
8835
I understand this is a "forum" to express concerns, ideas and general wow info but the amount of complaining and whining is staggering.

Can't people simply enjoy the game for whatever it is instead of swamping the forums with negativity? If anyone new was to land here they certainly wouldn't be convinced to give it a go if this is any indication as to the well being of the game population.

The same goes for the in game vitriol and venom. A simple "can someone help me I'm new" question in TC is more often than not met with hostility and nastiness.

Although not representative of the majority, it's what gets seen most often. If people want this game to survive how about we as a community try to support it instead of undermining it. This nasty troll like sub group is like a sore spreading throughout an otherwise great community and game.


I hope you are not trying to equate toxic wow players with legitimate Alliance concerns with the way that Alliance story is being presented in game.

Because that would just be wrong. Very wrong.


No, my post was a little off topic and a general observation, just seems that the majority of interaction is negative round here ATM. It probably isn't but can seem that way at times.
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