Patch 5.4 Developer Interviews - Updated 8.26

62 Night Elf Priest
1070


I hope you are not trying to equate toxic wow players with legitimate Alliance concerns with the way that Alliance story is being presented in game.

Because that would just be wrong. Very wrong.


No, my post was a little off topic and a general observation, just seems that the majority of interaction is negative round here ATM. It probably isn't but can seem that way at times.


To many, the lore IS what they enjoy. If it doesn't deliver, their enjoyment of the game is every bit as void of enjoyment
Reply Quote
08/27/2013 08:55 PMPosted by Wreave
This is not a few voices, this is not even close to 50%. Its an overwhelming, prolonged negative reaction.


no

it isn't

it is a number on the forums... the forums are not representative of 50% of the playerbase...heck, i doubt it tops 1% of the total playerbase.

Stop whining. The alliance is marching into orgrimmar and FORCIBLY removing the horde chieftan... how much more fist pumpery do you want?
Reply Quote
62 Night Elf Priest
1070
See?

A perfect example :).

Not what the problem is. But the actual problems get brushed off as whining because "omg you guiz are killing the war chief in org, neither of which are part of the Horde anymore by Garrosh own words"
Reply Quote
62 Night Elf Priest
1070
And, while on that subject... "fist bump" isn't what's after if it entails victory but more poor story everywhere else.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Warrior
3710
Excellent :D
Reply Quote
90 Goblin Death Knight
15040
Didn't consume the Kosak interview because I'm just as disappointed with Horde lore as Alliance apparently is with theirs. It doesn't make me feel like a hero or a revolutionary to break into my own capital city and murder my character's longtime friends.

Poor Alliance players seem to have it so bad that they see Horde getting crap and are mad that they're not also getting crap.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Priest
15755
08/28/2013 01:36 AMPosted by Darklinger
This is not a few voices, this is not even close to 50%. Its an overwhelming, prolonged negative reaction.


no

it isn't

it is a number on the forums... the forums are not representative of 50% of the playerbase...heck, i doubt it tops 1% of the total playerbase.

Stop whining. The alliance is marching into orgrimmar and FORCIBLY removing the horde chieftan... how much more fist pumpery do you want?


Remove the Alliance from the story and tell me how much of the overall narrative has to be rewritten. Now, remove the Horde (the PC Horde, not Garrosh's Horde) from the story and tell me how much of the overall narrative has to be rewritten.

And, that parenthetical remark above also belies another truth. The Alliance (and the PC Horde for that matter) are not attacking the Horde. They're attacking Garrosh and his Horde. Because of all the gameplay reasons a true strike at and defeat of the Horde could never happen. This story was untenable from the start in the MMO format.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
9120

Read the forums? Sure. We also send them reports of the hot topics on the forums, which oftentimes include Alliance concerns about story development.

Take feedback from the forums as design gospel and an appropriate summation of all player opinions? No.


Zarhym,

The issue the Alliance playerbase is having is, well... Despite what the devs feel and think (not to discount their opinions, but turnabout is fair play), the vocal group spread throughout the fan sites, forums in both US and EU, as well as Scrolls of Lore and the various twitter bugs, have been very clear.

We don't care about victories. They are not, and never really were, the issue. Cataclysm is a good example of this. The Alliance won quite a bit of Ashenvale, for instance. It didn't matter. Yes, some "visible" victories would be nice.

But the problem is, the victories are not the things that matter. Story representation, over-homogenization of our races (Elune being retconed to use the light, Stormwind banner being used to represent the Alliance) lack of racial representation, lack of faction identity, lack of story presentation and explanation (High King is a prime example. The Story teams claim it's like the Supreme Allied Commander and has no other benefits. So why change his title from Supreme Allied Commander, which he had?), lack of respect for characters and races. I'll point to Tyrande and the Night Elves in general for that one.

We get that our voices shouldn't be taken for gospel. It IS your (your being Blizzard, of course) story, after all. But what you've "been" doing has largely made the problems worse for the last two expansions. The player complaints haven't lightened up, the same fan sites and forums go on about the same things.

We don't doubt that Blizzard "wants" to make Alliance fans happy. But, yes.. We have to question how much of our feedback is received when at least two occasions the feedback that was said to have been received....wasn't the feedback that was given (Tyrande and players not liking her being fierce, and players not liking espionage in 5.3).

We know it's your story. We know that you may or may not agree with what we are telling you the problem is.

However, and I can't state enough how much I don't mean this to sound as harsh as it is.... It's really, really, really, not fair to those fans who "have" given you years worth of feedback that go, in many ways, directly against the way things have panned out to have a developer come out and say "Pssh, we tried to give them all these awesome moments. Look at all these strings of victories! There really isn't pleasing the Alliance. I mean, come on, what else can we do! We are trying to not alienate the Horde!"

It's... It's wrong. We have, as a group, told you the issues. The issues have, more or less, been universally agreed on throughout the fanbase that is active throughout the various stories when interested in the lore (to be fair, many of those sites intermingle). The way to go about those goals? Certainly a case of the fans not agreeing with each other... But the core issues? It's not a small percentage of forum users saying it.

I don't think that most of the Alliance believes that Blizzard is intentionally trying to screw the Alliance over. And, I can even, on some level, see what Blizzard is trying to do with the Siege and the victories.

But here's the problem.. By giving us those victories, our feedback on those issues that exist will be drowned out as "whining". Issues that still exist. That will continue to exist, and that fans have no way of knowing on if it reaches the Devs (and, I'm sorry, but when every time they say something on "come on Alliance" misses the point, it looks like they don't get it) will continue to give it, but in the end, it will be brushed aside.

Just like it is now by many of the Horde players. By, seemingly, Kosak. Yes... We are raiding Org. Yes... .We are killing Garrosh. Then what? The Alliance didn't particularly come together, though you guys say they did. They didn't have any "strife" to begin with outside of the Council, and then that was never resolved even in Blood in the Snow.

It's something you guys say, but show no evidence. The Alliance is, more or less, in the same place it was in Wrath. Varian as the Supreme Allied Commander, the other races...doing something? It's never really shown, explained, and the over abundance of humans in the story line kind of...makes the faction feel hollow? The difference is, of course, dalaran... But, to be honest, it doesn't change the position in the story. The Alliance is still in teh same place. A bunch of races that get along, with no strife shown, and following a guy who, by all acounts, is only getting the job because he's a human for nostolgia's sake.

What it boils down to is, by saying "The Alliance just can't be pleased" while not even acknowledging the very real and very prevailant feedback given, you guys are kinda saying how ungrateful that guy dying of thirst is from getting upset when he asked for water only to be given a slice of pie.
Sure, pie is...nice? But that guy is still dying of thirst. And while the Alliance may win, they are still sitting in the same place as they were in Wrath. No identity. No racial tension. No flavor. No progression.

And like pie, when you are not dying of thirst, no one will complain about victories.. But when they are? Pie is "really" the last thing that people want.


Thank you for having the patience to explain, yet again, the real reasons for our discontent. But I understand when Blizz says, basically, game first, story second, but I hope they realize that the Story is the primary reason why a lot of us are still here.

There are a lot of fun games out there, but I've been following the Warcraft story since Warcraft 2 and despite the current flaws in its presentation, in-game, I still want to see where its going
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
13725
I can only imagine how much Blizzard regrets that "fist pumping" remark.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
8025
They don't get it. They don't seem to be able to. Kosak keeps confirming that he doesn't get it, in interviews, in tweets, and in the content. In the end, it doesn't matter what you say to the man; his response will be, "but you killed the bad guy! You won! Look at all the orcs you beat up!" He's still laboring under the delusion that we want the Horde to be told that we beat them.

He even parrots the troll comments. "Would it be more Alliance focused if we were raiding Stormwind instead?" Stop focusing entirely on the activity itself, with no thought to why, or under what circumstances the activity is undertaken. That's exactly the problem. He seems to regard the activity as the only important part of the package. We're in Orgrimmar, killing orcs. What could be more awesome for a member of the Alliance than being in Orgrimmar, killing orcs?

He's still missing that what we're killing orcs in Orgrimmar to achieve is significant to us. We're killing orcs in Orgrimmar to achieve Horde unification. That is not what the Alliance wants to achieve. It is not enough to ask why we fight; we must ask what is worth fighting for.
Edited by Kaganfindel on 8/28/2013 8:16 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
16665
After we run orgrimmar over and get them a GOOD warchief, can the elves finally get their bottoms in gear and rebuild the park in Stormwind? Empty taverns are highly missed for good RP events.
Reply Quote
And, while on that subject... "fist bump" isn't what's after if it entails victory but more poor story everywhere else.


Here's an idea... create your own wildly successful franchise with WHAT YOU FEEL is a great story and have a MMORPG developed for it... problem solved.

This is blizzard's story to tell, not yours, not mine... we play it. Sure you can be dissatisfied, but ultimately, you don't control narrative, they do.

What you guys are doing is akin to readers berating a novelist because their favorite character didn't do what they wanted him/her to do...

Again.. NOT YOUR STORY TO TELL.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
9120
08/28/2013 08:43 AMPosted by Darklinger
And, while on that subject... "fist bump" isn't what's after if it entails victory but more poor story everywhere else.


Here's an idea... create your own wildly successful franchise with WHAT YOU FEEL is a great story and have a MMORPG developed for it... problem solved.

This is blizzard's story to tell, not yours, not mine... we play it. Sure you can be dissatisfied, but ultimately, you don't control narrative, they do.

What you guys are doing is akin to readers berating a novelist because their favorite character didn't do what they wanted him/her to do...

Again.. NOT YOUR STORY TO TELL.


You know, there was a time where I would totally agree with you. I made a post a few years back saying pretty much the same thing, not just about story, but game mechanics, everything basically, was Blizzards' to do whatever the heck they wanted. I felt that Blizzard seemed to be caving in to popular demand and their own artistic vision for the game was being devalued in favor of 'design by committee'. But, Blizzard has stated that they welcome feedback, and have demonstrated their willingness to change up the game, improve it, based on that feedback. If that's the way they want to run things, fine with me.

Now, we have a situation here where we see an apparent developer bias toward one particular faction in the game, in the game and out of the game. Or more accurately, people are finally putting together all the pieces and are just realizing it now, myself included. These pieces by themselves aren't worth making a fuss about, but when you see a trend that's progressively getting worse, I think its in everybody's best interest to provide that feedback.
Reply Quote
62 Night Elf Priest
1070
08/28/2013 08:43 AMPosted by Darklinger
And, while on that subject... "fist bump" isn't what's after if it entails victory but more poor story everywhere else.


Here's an idea... create your own wildly successful franchise with WHAT YOU FEEL is a great story and have a MMORPG developed for it... problem solved.

This is blizzard's story to tell, not yours, not mine... we play it. Sure you can be dissatisfied, but ultimately, you don't control narrative, they do.

What you guys are doing is akin to readers berating a novelist because their favorite character didn't do what they wanted him/her to do...

Again.. NOT YOUR STORY TO TELL.


Absolutely their story to tell....That doesn't mean they can't do better. People don't speak up, they don't know what's wrong.

Further, taking shots at the playerbase for not being happy while continuously not trying what they are suggesting is....wrong.

It IS their story. Abso-freaking-lutely. But just because "they" want something to happen doesn't mean the playerbase will like it, and they need to accept that. Not come out with "No pleasing them guys". It's not that we can't be pleased. It's that what you keep doing isn't going to please us because to us, it's not the problem, and we've been very vocal on the subject. So taking potshots isn't going to do anything but upset and anger the fanbase more.

And, before you get all defensive, I think the Horde story is in need of some help as well. MoP was a regression of the Orc story line, and felt like an overplayed homage to WC2 that no one needed.
Edited by Syryna on 8/28/2013 9:46 AM PDT
Reply Quote
68 Undead Warlock
7165
I listend to the Dave Kosak interview, and its just disappointing to see that a leading dev does not understand the Alliance playerbase,

and more disappointing that he expects us Alliance playerbase to fist-pump because he said they gave fist-pumping moments (WHICH WERE NOT) to Alliance players.

Do they even read the forums at all?


Take feedback from the forums as design gospel and an appropriate summation of all player opinions? No.


Congrats, you have identified the problem. Now just explain that to your boss and you may get a promotion...

Forum goers SHOULD be your MAIN source of all player opinions. After all, we are the ones who care enough to even spend time here.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
9695
They don't get it. They don't seem to be able to. Kosak keeps confirming that he doesn't get it, in interviews, in tweets, and in the content. In the end, it doesn't matter what you say to the man; his response will be, "but you killed the bad guy! You won! Look at all the orcs you beat up!" He's still laboring under the delusion that we want the Horde to be told that we beat them.

He even parrots the troll comments. "Would it be more Alliance focused if we were raiding Stormwind instead?" Stop focusing entirely on the activity itself, with no thought to why, or under what circumstances the activity is undertaken. That's exactly the problem. He seems to regard the activity as the only important part of the package. We're in Orgrimmar, killing orcs. What could be more awesome for a member of the Alliance than being in Orgrimmar, killing orcs?

He's still missing that what we're killing orcs in Orgrimmar to achieve is significant to us. We're killing orcs in Orgrimmar to achieve Horde unification. That is not what the Alliance wants to achieve. It is not enough to ask why we fight; we must ask what is worth fighting for.


Basically everything this guy said.
Reply Quote
And, before you get all defensive, I think the Horde story is in need of some help as well. MoP was a regression of the Orc story line, and felt like an overplayed homage to WC2 that no one needed.


I won't get defensive. Here's why... THIS IS A VIDEO GAME!

It is there story to tell and no amount of crying or whining will change that. Offer opinions? I get it. Rage and threaten (both of which I have seen from Alliance players because they don't feel they are getting their due)? Not so much.

Honestly, I don't play WOW for the story. I play it because it allows me to enjoy a few hours here and there with friends/family, playing a game together. It serves as a great way to decompress.

If a game causes you so much consternation that you get your feelings hurt, enough so that you claim some kind of conspiracy of favoritism, chances are you really need to find a different hobby.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Warrior
8735
08/28/2013 10:48 AMPosted by Darklinger
And, before you get all defensive, I think the Horde story is in need of some help as well. MoP was a regression of the Orc story line, and felt like an overplayed homage to WC2 that no one needed.


I won't get defensive. Here's why... THIS IS A VIDEO GAME!

It is there story to tell and no amount of crying or whining will change that. Offer opinions? I get it. Rage and threaten (both of which I have seen from Alliance players because they don't feel they are getting their due)? Not so much.

Honestly, I don't play WOW for the story. I play it because it allows me to enjoy a few hours here and there with friends/family, playing a game together. It serves as a great way to decompress.

If a game causes you so much consternation that you get your feelings hurt, enough so that you claim some kind of conspiracy of favoritism, chances are you really need to find a different hobby.


Who are you exactly that you can tell people how much they should care about something just because you don't? Stop trying to stir up good posters on this thread.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
7760
What bothers is this. If players on the forums have legitimate concerns about the story, especially Alliance side? They are dismissed as criers, trolls and negative people in general.

Then you have the biggest idiot players of all coming on here saying, "Hey I don't play for lore,
I play to hang out with friends, stop complaining, the game is fun."

If you don't care about lore, of course you aren't going to have a problems with flaws or notice them.

I think, when you have made a game that is such a heavy money investment, for people who have been here for multiple years.

Blizzard needs to stop defending their writing, like they are George R Martin.

I would be different, if it wasn't a game and existed only in novels, that is a small investment, and smaller fee. No they shouldn't change a thing, if people don't like it.

Art isn't a democracy and should never be a democracy.

When players invest this much money? Hundreds, of hundreds, and sometimes thousands of dollars, and have complaints? You need to listen to them, Metzen and others need to let go of their egos, and make the product reflect their desires.

This isn't as simple as spending under 20.00 dollars on a novel and you don't like it.
Also, this game is no Heavy Rain.

I know the employees of Blizzard say, there isn't a unified complaint about the story coming from the Alliance players who have problems with it.

That the people who complain on the forums, are a small negative vocal few, that don't reflect the negatives of the player base, or the reaction by other costumers is outright positive.

I just cant believe that.
It sounds like an excuse, to allow the writers to do whatever the hell they want and if players don't like it, it's just too damn bad. Because they will tell the story, they want, and people who have spend a lot of money on this game can either like it or shut up.

This isn't a epic world that exists only in novels (that the writers at Blizzard don't even create themselves, they merely give a outline), or just a film.

This a game, and a product made to make money, it should reflect customers desires, not their own. If the players who only care about gameplay ignore lore all the time, then it won't hurt them at all, to listen to the complaints of lore players.

NOT YOUR STORY TO TELL.


The problem with your point is, this isn't a Forgotten Realms, Novel.
This isn't the Latest game of thrones novel.
Also this isn't a movie only, where a guy creates a script and crafts it the way he wants.
Games are heavier money investment, you spend 60 dollars on a single player game, or in this games case, close or over to 1,000 dollars on such a product.
If fans don't like the product itself, from the writing standpoint, the writing should be made to reflect, the desires of majority. It makes good business sense.

If Metzen and Blizzard's other writers want to spout the "It's our story defense", they need to work on original IPs, where the fiction, is the only thing to go on.
Where they don't have a gaming brand, to hide behind, if the lore fails and have the comfort of money coming in the brand itself, to defend their lore and think it's successful.

Stephen King? Fans of his didn't like the way a novel series of his ended, so it changed it for them.

I do agree a artist, should never go off a democracy system, or change a novel that people don't like the idea of, or films.
But those entry fees to enjoy the creation are much less steep and they don't have another aspect to them that can bring in money, like gameplay.

I asked fellow authors, if fans were spending sometimes 1,000 dollars on a single book, would they write it different, to make the majority happy.

They all said, it would be a different product, and they would write it to reflect the desire of the masses. They couldn't in good faith cram their vision in people's heads, especially knowing most were unhappy with, the vision itself.

They believe the writing in games is artistic and takes such talent, but the story itself needs to be crafted differently because it's a expensive product.

I agree with them completely.

Every writer said, they wouldn't really want to turn their Novel into game because they wouldn't have the freedom to do whatever they wanted.

They would have to craft it, for the majority to enjoy, things would have to be changed and you'd be on a team, where you may not get to do what you want.

Metzen has said, fans sometimes don't get it. Maybe it's him and his fellow writers in the company that don't. I wonder if they have even taken that into consideration, that they are going about this the wrong way.
Edited by Xagosaurfang on 8/28/2013 12:00 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
7760
08/28/2013 11:33 AMPosted by Superdood


I won't get defensive. Here's why... THIS IS A VIDEO GAME!

It is there story to tell and no amount of crying or whining will change that. Offer opinions? I get it. Rage and threaten (both of which I have seen from Alliance players because they don't feel they are getting their due)? Not so much.

Honestly, I don't play WOW for the story. I play it because it allows me to enjoy a few hours here and there with friends/family, playing a game together. It serves as a great way to decompress.

If a game causes you so much consternation that you get your feelings hurt, enough so that you claim some kind of conspiracy of favoritism, chances are you really need to find a different hobby.


Who are you exactly that you can tell people how much they should care about something just because you don't? Stop trying to stir up good posters on this thread.


He is a Troll White Knight.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]