5.4 Legendary RPPM proc chance

100 Blood Elf Priest
9380
08/19/2013 03:52 PMPosted by Tiberria
The real reason overhealing is so out of control (and it's more out of control now than it ever was in Wrath) is because the developers let absorb mechanics get completely out of control.

So what you're saying is...it's all my fault <3
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100 Blood Elf Priest
9380
08/19/2013 03:52 PMPosted by Tiberria
Disc should not have any absorbs except PW:S, and PW:S probably should be put on 4 -6 second cooldown even for Disc.

I see where you are coming from, but honestly at that point why even have disc. The backlash would be of biblical proportions. You say that overhealing is more out of control then it was in wrath, and you blame absorbs for that problem, and yet from what i'm told (didn't play in wrath) basically all disc did at one point was bubble spam. That sure sounds like a lot of absorbs to me...even with today's gear, consistent bubble spam=oom priest. Why are absorbs breaking balance even more then they did in wrath, then? Seems like there is another factor at play.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
08/19/2013 03:52 PMPosted by Tiberria
The real reason overhealing is so out of control (and it's more out of control now than it ever was in Wrath) is because the developers let absorb mechanics get completely out of control.


I disagree with you completely. Absorbs are a symptom of the problem, but they are not the source of the problem. Stop being bitter.

08/19/2013 04:29 PMPosted by Mythrose
Disc should not have any absorbs except PW:S, and PW:S probably should be put on 4 -6 second cooldown even for Disc.

I see where you are coming from, but honestly at that point why even have disc. The backlash would be of biblical proportions. You say that overhealing is more out of control then it was in wrath, and you blame absorbs for that problem, and yet from what i'm told (didn't play in wrath) basically all disc did at one point was bubble spam. That sure sounds like a lot of absorbs to me...even with today's gear, consistent bubble spam=oom priest. Why are absorbs breaking balance even more then they did in wrath, then? Seems like there is another factor at play.


Not to mention the fact that the entire reason they removed the CD off of PW: Shield was because they nerfed Disc's single-target healing and were trying to push them into raid healing. With bubbles.
Edited by Tiriel on 8/19/2013 4:34 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
I don't understand why the Disc proc rate is so high. Is it just to incentivize the healing cloak for Disc? That isn't really necessary. Presumably the DPS legendary won't even work for Disc, so people who skip out on the healing legendary will be trading the proc for, uh, ~300 crit? Not a contest - the healing cloak is vastly superior.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
While they didn't go through with the item squish, I don't think it's fair to say that's the entire problem. I mean, they chose to do item inflation this expansion unlike anything we've ever seen in a previous expansion. It seems very deliberate on their part.


Oh, I know better than to think it's the entire problem. I can think of a few other things like homogenization (aka DPS specs having equal/better raid CDs than healers), general class imbalance that's always been around to some extent, PvP affecting PvE and visa versa ect.

What I also find interesting is that while I understand that DPS are balanced around meters (more or less) and tanks are balanced around mitigation (more or less), Blizzard often says to ignore HPS discrepancies when comparing healers (even though no one actually does, even Blizzard) and also says that comparing utility is a nebulous affair in general. So i don't really understand what they consider a "balanced" healer, after all this time. Like when Monk not taking Spirit was suddenly a problem even when it's been that way since beta. Or how stubborn they've been about the Shaman niche. Or Druid shroom management or EF blanketing "OPness" or sudden mandatory Disc Atonement ect ect ect, I just have to keep guessing what they are thinking sometimes.


For the good of the game and the good of healing, they really need to get absorbs under control next expansion.


I can sort of agree with that. No matter who says otherwise, it's pretty damn harsh if your raid is stuck without one, while the opposite doesn't really seem true. I'm not sure I agree with all of your suggestions about how to tone the down though. :P
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
08/19/2013 04:47 PMPosted by Thaimaishu
I just have to keep guessing what they are thinking sometimes.


I think we're all stuck in that situation. Sometimes what they say doesn't match what they do. And it can be very frustrating, because you end up feeling like they're talking out both sides of their mouth, as it were.
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100 Tauren Priest
20890
I don't understand why the Disc proc rate is so high. Is it just to incentivize the healing cloak for Disc? That isn't really necessary. Presumably the DPS legendary won't even work for Disc, so people who skip out on the healing legendary will be trading the proc for, uh, ~300 crit? Not a contest - the healing cloak is vastly superior.


The disc proc rate is so high because disc priests were going to benefit the very least from the overhealing being redistributed simply because of how a disc priest works. Most overheals come from smart heals and Crits and smart heals critting. Now you take a disc priest, and all of their heals that crit, simply turn into an absorb via DA. So their actual overheal value is quite low because an absorb simply cannot overheal, it either gets partially used up, used up completely, or falls off and acts like it never existed.

So when the cloak would proc for disc priests the overheals we would have to redistribute would be a joke compared to say a resto shaman or a holy priest, hence my (assumed) reasoning for disc having a drastically higher proc chance than all other healers.

Unfortunately I still don't care about that I just care about having a 5% increase to healing more than all of you now since I have to stay disc being the only absorb healer in my ten man.

I see where you are coming from, but honestly at that point why even have disc. The backlash would be of biblical proportions. You say that overhealing is more out of control then it was in wrath, and you blame absorbs for that problem, and yet from what i'm told (didn't play in wrath) basically all disc did at one point was bubble spam. That sure sounds like a lot of absorbs to me...even with today's gear, consistent bubble spam=oom priest. Why are absorbs breaking balance even more then they did in wrath, then? Seems like there is another factor at play.


I definitely agree with that, and I'll add on by saying I think the other factors include the dps we bring via atonement being the mandatory playstyle, and the unique CDs we bring that blizzard has introduced since wrath. We only broke one fight in wrath and that was heroic lich king with the debuff and you needed 2 of us to do it and you better have had double solace trinkets to maintain the mana for that amount of bubbles.

We just have to much utility in all aspects that are important to the current model of healing which is what it really game breaking about the spec. I'm not saying you can single heal everything as Tiriel has said many times before throw a disc priest in heroic content and watch them flounder when aoe damage starts outperforming their absorbs we simply cannot keep a raid up like a resto Druid or a holy priest but absorbs become far superior because if the damage never comes or it comes in at a reduced damage it is easier on the raid overall.

That and the only limitation of barrier is the raid stacking.
Edited by Rapsidy on 8/19/2013 5:15 PM PDT
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Because somewhere along the way they threw their hands up in the air and said, "Screw it! Making mana matter is too damn difficult!"

It's funny how mana is a bigger joke today than it was in Cata. Compared to today's trinket and the LMG, H Heat of Unliving looks like complete crap (relatively speaking for their intended level). They "fixed" the problem that Int being the best throughput and regen stat was back then, but they threw broken regeneration trinkets and other mechanics that made us bypass mana problems quickly. Heck, I felt more tight on mana back in T14 with 11-12k Spirit than I do now with barely 7k because how ridiculous things have gotten.

08/19/2013 04:29 PMPosted by Mythrose
You say that overhealing is more out of control then it was in wrath, and you blame absorbs for that problem, and yet from what i'm told (didn't play in wrath) basically all disc did at one point was bubble spam.

I'd say it is the entire toolkit of Disc that has evolved to an extremely synergetic but considerably overboard (namely for 10m) system. PW:S spamfest was basically a thing in Wrath (ohai Infest), but DA was still only 30% and I think PoH wasn't exactly as solid for them back then compared to today. Spirit Shell did not exist and raid fights had damage patterns that would have not favored it so much like today. Atonement did not exist either and in Cata it was not as strong as it was today, for these days atonement is nearly the perfect single target healing mechanic: Smart, fast, relatively cheap, huge range and contributes a non-trival ammount of DPS. Also, heal Crits are generally balanced around the fact that they are prone to higher overhealing; DA being the Disc's unique for of heal Crits basically removes the entire overhealing factor from it, something that no other spec has a luxury of.

I'd not say that Absorbs are the problem per se, but rather that their mechanics as well as encounter mechanics were not tunned properly. Having a Disc stopped feeling like a comodity and more like a necessity (at least in 10m) because of "Spirit Shell or Die". Stuff needs to be worked around better so that the death risk does not have such a huge gap depending on whether you have a Disc Priest in raid or not.
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100 Draenei Priest
8735
Having a Disc stopped feeling like a comodity and more like a necessity (at least in 10m) because of "Spirit Shell or Die". Stuff needs to be worked around better so that the death risk does not have such a huge gap depending on whether you have a Disc Priest in raid or not.

Which 10m fights this tier do you think have a "spirit shell or die" mechanic? I'll give you pre-nerf Jolt on H Animus. The only fight I can really think of is Horridon.

Absorbs aren't creating more overheal, they just snipe more than hots and direct heals. If there were no absorbs in the game but the same relative healer power, you would have the same amount of overheal just more evenly distributed.

Side note: personally I'm not a fan of Divine Aegis, I think random or passive absorbs are silly, more proactive tools should be more precise.
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100 Tauren Priest
20890
Which 10m fights this tier do you think have a "spirit shell or die" mechanic? I'll give you pre-nerf Jolt on H Animus. The only fight I can really think of is Horridon.


I can say for a fact that doing the heroic council fight the cheesy 2 heal with a rogue smoke bomb way having spirit shell was a godsend. Especially for Kazra. I would use spirit shell for the first roll with AA and the PI bubble bot the raid for the second roll. We literally didn't need any other healer CDs at all for Kazra empowerment because I could handle them by myself and our resto Druid would just use tranquility whenever else we needed it in the fight if we messed up somewhere else.

That was in comparison when I was trying to heal it as holy. I couldn't. I would go oom before the right was over or Kazra would just overpower us. I switched to disc dropped about 5k spirit and didn't even watch my mana bar and we downed it the very next attempt :/

I haven't done heroic Magera yet but I can imagine it's pretty darn powerful to have up on every single rampage.
Edited by Rapsidy on 8/19/2013 5:46 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Priest
8735
08/19/2013 05:44 PMPosted by Rapsidy
I can say for a fact that

you didn't read what you quoted.

Also you overgear the piss out of Council, if you can't 2 heal through kazra as holy it's because something in your raid is horribly wrong.
Edited by Evry on 8/19/2013 5:54 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Priest
20890
I'm talking about when we were progressing thru it. Like a month ago. Clearly I haven't gotten any upgrades in the 2 weeks we worked on it and the 4 kills afterwards. No need to be a jerk.
Edited by Rapsidy on 8/19/2013 5:59 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Priest
8735
Spirit Shell isn't making or breaking that fight. Pain Sup and Barrier are much bigger factors in surviving Frostbite. Or atonement to push dark power faster. Spirit Shell is a great ability on most fights, but this isn't T14, and the person I quoted was suggesting that you need spirit shell to survive raid mechanics.
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100 Tauren Priest
20890
The lol cheesy rogue strat makes it so frostbite never goes out. So we just don't deal with the frostbite mechanics ever.

And yeah I agree with you in that sense that no spell is ever mandatory to down a fight, I was just trying to point out that in most fights a disc priest makes it a heck of a lot easier.

Heck go to the healer off topic right now and they are talking about how monk tanks can completely negate a mechanic on raden.

Back on topic though I think ppl are just frustrated at

1. The cloak gets nerfed to why bother to pretty much every spec and
2. The spec it benefits the most now didn't need it, especially in tens.
Edited by Rapsidy on 8/19/2013 6:49 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
08/19/2013 04:29 PMPosted by Mythrose
Disc should not have any absorbs except PW:S, and PW:S probably should be put on 4 -6 second cooldown even for Disc.

I see where you are coming from, but honestly at that point why even have disc. The backlash would be of biblical proportions. You say that overhealing is more out of control then it was in wrath, and you blame absorbs for that problem, and yet from what i'm told (didn't play in wrath) basically all disc did at one point was bubble spam. That sure sounds like a lot of absorbs to me...even with today's gear, consistent bubble spam=oom priest. Why are absorbs breaking balance even more then they did in wrath, then? Seems like there is another factor at play.


Yes, pretty much all Disc did in ICC was spam PW:S. I remember Heroic Lich King progression as disc my finger being sore from pretty much doing nothing but hitting one button for hours on end. However, when you compare the throughput percentage back then that Disc had from absorbs to the throughput percentage from absorbs now, it's still about the same. Also, even though PWS spam was powerful, it was still 1 GCD per target. That was the only reliable way to to get absorbs up as well; PoH was barely used (because it didn't have the automatic Divine Aegis added to it until IIRC early Cata). The amount of absorbs blanketing from PW:S spam was nowhere near as ridiculous and impactful as Spirit Shell is today.

Pallies also didn't have absorbs at all, let alone absorbs making up 40% of their healing back then either.
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100 Draenei Shaman
13040
08/19/2013 03:52 PMPosted by Tiberria
For the good of the game and the good of healing, they really need to get absorbs under control next expansion. For starters, they should replace the Holy Paladin mastery. They then probably need to gut and completely revamp Disc. Disc should not have any absorbs except PW:S, and PW:S probably should be put on 4 -6 second cooldown even for Disc.


I really don't think they need anything that drastic. Just make absorbs only block a certain percentage of damage so that throughput can pick up the rest. Sure, the amount of absorbs, especially passives, could be tuned down but I don't think we need the upheaval of any long time specs. But this really isn't about the topic about how lackluster the healer cape is.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14910
The amount of absorbs blanketing from PW:S spam was nowhere near as ridiculous and impactful as Spirit Shell is today.


Eh, Spirit Shell looks great on the meters but I wouldn't say it has a large impact on the majority of 25H encounters. Like, it's really nice and you should cast it all the time, but it doesn't exactly save lives that often outside of bigfat burst mechanics like Jolt (which is awful because every Font in the room locks onto you the instant you cast it). If anything, PW:S has a greater impact on the ability to save lives since it's instant and will immediately absorb about as much as 2 SS PoH casts.

I know PW:S is what kept people alive on early Primordius and Animus progression since the problems were less about overall throughput (where SS smashes PW:S spam) and more about providing an instant cushion to people who drop dangerously low before a Gas or Jolt or whatever. That's what usually saves people, not a 50k shield that is wiped off as soon as it's applied and just cannot be used reactively. This is mostly limited to 25m obviously since in 10m the shields you build up are much much larger per person, you just seem to be mostly focused on 25m. But then I don't really care about healer throughput balance and just want my cutesy little absorb niche, so maybe we're not even on the same page.

tldr remove SS and give me another single target shield or something thxblizz

Oh and the cape topic. Looks terrible and unfun for everyone. That's true balance~~~
Edited by Nixxin on 8/19/2013 7:44 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
19330
The real reason overhealing is so out of control (and it's more out of control now than it ever was in Wrath) is because the developers let absorb mechanics get completely out of control. Their way to respond to the class balance problems that causes (because absorbed damage is always better than healed damage) is to massively overbuff HoT and direct heal based healing so that it is strong enough to compete with absorbs. That results in an overabundance of passive healing, an overabundance of overly powerful raid cooldowns, and results in things like Healing Rain essentially being balanced around ~90% overheal (and still consisting of 25-40% of our healing).

For the good of the game and the good of healing, they really need to get absorbs under control next expansion. For starters, they should replace the Holy Paladin mastery. They then probably need to gut and completely revamp Disc. Disc should not have any absorbs except PW:S, and PW:S probably should be put on 4 -6 second cooldown even for Disc. They need to get ~20% of their healing from absorbs, not ~80%, and then need other non absorb healing mechanics to be brought in to cover the gaps. People may not like it, because they "like the absorb healing style", but it's bad for healing and it's bad for the game. They are better off changing the design intent of one spec than allowing one spec to effectively break balance completely and ruin it for 5 others.


They also need to strip away any healing from tanks that targets anyone but themselves (like Glyph of the Battle Healer/Battle Insight, Holy Prism, Arcing Light).

Then they need to hit hybrid healing cds, if not strip them away entirely then increase their cost so there is actually some downside to their primary role for using them. They started to do this with DPS shaman when they removed Healing Rain from Glyph of Healing Storm. But of course now every elemental and enhancement shaman will have access to HTT and AG. There is almost no downside to their use. Heart of the Wild Tranquility is grossly overpowered, even on an 8 minute cd. Your damage should crater when you use these or should be so resource intensive that you're out of commission until you can regenerate their cost.

They should also probably remove Glyph of Totemic Recall and increase the mana cost of HST because for how much smart healing it does and for so little overhealing, it should not essentially cost 0 mana.

There's a lot they need to do to return sanity to the healing game.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
Well this slid off the rails.
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90 Pandaren Monk
15705
They also need to strip away any healing from tanks that targets anyone but themselves (like Glyph of the Battle Healer/Battle Insight, Holy Prism, Arcing Light).

Then they need to hit hybrid healing cds, if not strip them away entirely then increase their cost so there is actually some downside to their primary role for using them. They started to do this with DPS shaman when they removed Healing Rain from Glyph of Healing Storm. But of course now every elemental and enhancement shaman will have access to HTT and AG. There is almost no downside to their use. Heart of the Wild Tranquility is grossly overpowered, even on an 8 minute cd. Your damage should crater when you use these or should be so resource intensive that you're out of commission until you can regenerate their cost.

They should also probably remove Glyph of Totemic Recall and increase the mana cost of HST because for how much smart healing it does and for so little overhealing, it should not essentially cost 0 mana.

There's a lot they need to do to return sanity to the healing game.


This would fix the cloak how?
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