HPS meters confuse me as a metric...

92 Tauren Druid
Hex
15105
Not sure if this is something other resto druids experience, but I really don't like people throwing around HPS as a metric in raids when, during periods of relatively low damage, my HoTs get basically overwritten by other healers who top people off before two ticks can even go by.

Just seems like a statistic without much meaning. If people die by getting one shot during a mechanic, you can get the finger pointed at you with low HPS numbers. On the flipside, hit Tranq once during a high damage mechanic and it can make it look like you've been working your butt of the whole fight by just looking at the numbers.

And I guess I still don't understand how Absorbs get entered into the mix, something resto druids don't have but seem to add to the numbers of other classes.

Just wanted to hear other opinions.
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90 Troll Priest
6525
They have a meaning, but it's not a direct translation of "performance of healer => hps"

Especially since what get's there "first" is the heal that's used. There is only a set amount of healing to do at any given point in time. Unlike dps, which is theoretically has no limit.

That being said, log parses do a much better job of evaluating healer performance. You can see the entire picture.

You can see when spirit shell healed the majority of a mechanic, and hots topped it off. Vice versa, you can see when Spirit Shell was eaten through and the throughput healers came to the rescue and filled up the health bars.

I think people always want to find a simple way of evaluating their raid members' performance. It's easy to glance at recount/skada and say "well this is what's wrong!"

Often it's much more.
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100 Night Elf Druid
9420
Factors that effect healing meters that have nothing to do with how good you are:

1. How many healers?
2. What level of content?
3. Are you overhealing the content?
4. Is there a competent disc priest? (:P)

I raid with a disc priest and a mistweaver monk who both outgear me. Basically, I suck on the HPS meter. I try not to worry about it.

In the LFR meters I am basically a god, unless a competent disc priest is present. :P

If you are looking to evaluate yourself, try running some combat log parses and check out how you're handling the mechanics of your class. That will be a better evaluation tool.
Edited by Weetabix on 8/20/2013 10:42 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
8435
It's a meaningful metric if you know how to read logs. Recount alone is very misleading if it's being read by a moron raid leader (or anyone else) who has no clue how to analyze healing numbers.

Noticed you've done few normal encounters. Tortos and Megaera are two encounters youve tried outside of LFR that a Resto Druid should absolutely shine above any absorb based healer if all you care about is nuking the meters.
Edited by Tonydanza on 8/20/2013 10:43 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7025
As a healer new to raiding, I do feel like I learn alot by using it to see what the other healers are healing the most and which spells they're using the most, especially when I get to raid with other holy paladins. (I'm stuck with LFR for the moment; my guildies are resubbing with the new patch)

As far as who is first or last on the charts, though, I think its pretty meaningless. Is overhealing counted in HPS? Because it seems to me that all healers in LFR throw their heals on the tank regardless of if he needs the healing or not, meaning that the jerk at #1 whose bragging in /i probably wasted a large portion of his mana to get there.
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100 Night Elf Druid
9420
Mageara and Tortos are soooo fun as a resto druid. :D
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90 Troll Priest
6525
As a healer new to raiding, I do feel like I learn alot by using it to see what the other healers are healing the most and which spells they're using the most, especially when I get to raid with other holy paladins. (I'm stuck with LFR for the moment; my guildies are resubbing with the new patch)

As far as who is first or last on the charts, though, I think its pretty meaningless. Is overhealing counted in HPS? Because it seems to me that all healers in LFR throw their heals on the tank regardless of if he needs the healing or not, meaning that the jerk at #1 whose bragging in /i probably wasted a large portion of his mana to get there.


It depends on the class mechanic as well. Absorbs generally come out on top, especially passive absorbs (Disc Divine Aegis and HPally Illuminated Healing) because it, like I said, gets there first in the most obnoxious of ways when content is overhealed.
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92 Tauren Druid
Hex
15105
It came to a head scratching point last night, which is why I posed the question. PUG for Lei Shen, we die in first transition several times, they ask me if I could could hit the road because my numbers were low. Now, I understand if I'm messing up mechanics, but when virtually no damage is being passed around during phase one, and people across the room are dying to static shock on the intermission, my numbers are going to look very, very low because there was nothing to heal, HoTs were overwritten, and people were getting one shotted elsewhere.

Found a different group about an hour later. We two shotted it, and each time I started low but ended up competitive with the other healers.

Essentially, if there is nothing to heal, you are going to be at 0 HPS. Once a little bit of raid damage goes around, the healer that's the quickest at firing his spells off will get the numbers. Like you guys said about parsing, the HPS numbers just don't seem to carry much weight, but still get thrown around as equivalent measures like DPS.

It's a meaningful metric if you know how to read logs. Recount alone is very misleading if it's being read by a moron raid leader (or anyone else) who has no clue how to analyze healing numbers.

Noticed you've done few normal encounters. Tortos and Megaera are two encounters youve tried outside of LFR that a Resto Druid should absolutely shine above any absorb based healer if all you care about is nuking the meters.


I love those fights. Now, if only my guildmates would either A.) stop letting rocks fall on their heads, or B.) invest in hard hats, it'd be more fun ;)
Edited by Theodoruuk on 8/20/2013 10:53 AM PDT
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Total Healing - Over-healing = Effective Healing

HPS is an OK metric to take a quick glance at, but healing numbers are very different from DPS numbers (As a quick aside, Druids are usually the top over-healer due to how many HoTs they have rolling on players, they make up for it by having very strong output...just an FYI). Much like how a tank must do everything he/she can to avoid huge periods of burst damage (Smooth damage in-take is always a solid tank goal) healers must be prepared to heal burst damage periods. I have had healers "beat" me on HPS or Total Healing in fights but also did twice as much Over-healing, which actually had me number one on effective healing.

IMO Effective healing is probably the closest thing we have to evaluating healer's output. Sprinkle in a tiny bit of HPS just to see if someone is severely lower than the other healers. A sneaky part is also how well the healers are at dispelling, purging, how well they time their CD's etc. But mostly it comes down to, did we survive the fight, beat the boss, and did the three or two (10 man) healers feel good about the synergy/outcome. If the healing team felt solid about the fight, and that no one felt they were carrying anyone, chances are everyone is doing their job.
Edited by Drofty on 8/20/2013 10:57 AM PDT
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90 Troll Priest
6525
08/20/2013 10:51 AMPosted by Theodoruuk
PUG for Lei Shen, we die in first transition several times,


There really isn't a lot to heal here. I'd immediately raise my "idiot raid leader" flag. The issue here is personal responsibility of not handling mechanics well. Probably any number of now, trivial things such as people using reduction CD's but trying to soak with a buddy (shifting the entirety of static shock onto your soak buddy). Or not handling diffusion chain well, or not being in their corner quickly enough.

Essentially, if there is nothing to heal, you are going to be at 0 HPS. Once a little bit of raid damage goes around, the healer that's the quickest at firing his spells off will get the numbers. Like you guys said about parsing, the HPS numbers just don't seem to carry much weight, but still get thrown around as equivalent measures like DPS.


Yes, and this is why absorbs seem to snuff out other healers in low damage encounters. Absorbs hang around for awhile, giving them a very good chance to be there "first". In HM encounters, one needs a lot more than an absorb to keep people alive. When you over gear normals though, it just seems like 2 healers can be overkill at times, let alone 3.

Parsing as a healer is important and it isn't. It's nice to show that you can sustain a high throughput, but it's difficult when the content is healed with 2 or 3 other healers, or people aren't making your life a little bit more challenging so you have more to heal.
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92 Tauren Druid
Hex
15105
Total Healing - Over-healing = Effective Healing

HPS is an OK metric to take a quick glance at, but healing numbers are very different from DPS numbers. Much like how a tank must do everything he/she can to avoid to huge periods of burst damage (Smooth damage in-take is always a solid tank goal) healers must be prepared to heal burst damage periods. I have had healers "beat" me on HPS or Total Healing in fights but also did twice as much Over-healing, which actually had me number one on effective healing.

IMO Effective healing is probably the closest thing we have to evaluating healer's output. Sprinkle in a tiny bit of HPS just to see if someone is severely lower than the other healers. A sneaky part is also how well the healers are at dispelling, purging, how well they time their CD's etc. But mostly it comes down to, did we survive the fight, beat the boss, and did the three or two (10 man) healers feel good about the synergy/outcome. If the healing team felt solid about the fight, and that no one felt they were carrying anyone, chances are everyone is doing their job.


How does that work for Druids though? In my own guild raids I get terribly high overhealing numbers, and it seems I can attribute a lot of that to, like I said before, my HoTs being overwritten. To be simplistic, if there was 500 damage that needed healed and I have a HoT that heals 100 damage per second over five seconds, if left alone it would heal that 500 damage no problem. But, as is wont to happen, another healer casts a quick heal for 500 after one tick goes off, they get 400 healling and 100 overhealing, whereas my spell is now 100 healing and 400 overhealing by the time it wears off. Even though it easily could have healed the 500 by itself.
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100 Night Elf Druid
9420
Druids and Monks will almost always (and in the case of druids, have always) have the absolute most ridic overhealing, because of how hots work and because there is not a lot of need or even (depending on mechanics) possibility of allowing players to sit at any sort of health deficit to allow the hots to work.

If you're 3 healing normal modes, your overhealing is just... it's going to look bad. Suggest 2 healing. Disc/druid or paladin/druid are great combos. But any 2 can get the job done for normal modes.
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100 Gnome Monk
15865
Using HPS meters to judge the worth of a healer in LFR is like measuring rainfall by the sound your neighbor's cat is making. There might be some correlation but it also might be that the cat's hungry.

LFR is almost always over healed. Some fights might require 3 decent healers. Some fights, I'm looking at you Twins, might require 1 if done right. Having 6 people all trying to heal Twin Consorts is just silly.

That turns LFR into a giant snipe fest. The monk who hits Revival first wins. Of course then you're playing chicken with the other monk to see who will let the raid drop the lowest.

And I guess I still don't understand how Absorbs get entered into the mix, something resto druids don't have but seem to add to the numbers of other classes.


Absorbs in LFR are cheating. ;)

If you can blanket the raid so that your bubbles take the damage instead of the characters then there is nothing for the other healers to heal. You can't heal healthy people.

Now in an actual raiding environment absorbs are still very powerful but won't skewer the meters like a troll cooking a gnome over a BBQ pit. They're great to increase the effective health of the raid or an individual so they survive some big burst of damage. However there's enough damage after the bubbles pop that the other healers have something, usually a lot, to do. In this case absorbs just give the other healers time to work.

Edit: You can substitute LFR for any environment where there is little damage going out or is over healed. It can be a boss or even just a phase of an encounter.
Edited by Kipery on 8/20/2013 11:08 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
08/20/2013 10:51 AMPosted by Theodoruuk
Like you guys said about parsing, the HPS numbers just don't seem to carry much weight, but still get thrown around as equivalent measures like DPS.


It's important to note that a healer's ability to burst hps when it's needed is important.

As is the approximate maximum hps a healer can sustain for the duration of a fight without oom'ing.

... does the amount you end up healing on a given fight show either of those things? NOPE, not unless the person evaluating you goes to a WoL *parse* to look at what you healed moment by moment... and even then, the parse may not show your actual capability if the raid is overhealing the fight (overhealing in this context = too many healers present for the amount of damage actually being taken by the raid).

... lots and *lots* of guilds overheal fights (mine being one of them). Usually, dps requirements are low enough that in 10man, you can bring 3 healers instead of 2, and having that 3rd healer (and importantly, the 3rd set of healer spec cooldowns) means you can heal through the derp of the raid in numbers of situations, instead of wiping. It generally gives people more leeway to make mistakes.

However, this means that large numbers of 10man healers are "competing" for a limited amount of healing needed to be done, if you look at "who does more healing" on the meters. The same happens in 25man too, but I'm not on top of how many healers it takes to overheal 25man content.

Now, if during a clutch mechanic, you *can't* burst as high as the other healers, then that can be a problem in fights were x amount of burst healing is needed, and you need to learn how to adjust your gear and potentially your glyphs/talents, as well as your playstyle, to get up to par for your class & ilvl, in that case. That's not what you're describing, but it's one situation in which a healer's situation-specific hps (as measured by the burst shown on your graph of "healing done" on the fight) *can* be important.

Far more important than a healer's hps is all the other info WoL will give anyone who's looking at your parses in depth - which talents & glyphs you choose to use for a fight, when & how you use your cooldowns, your active mana management, and a general idea of what abilities you use to sustain however much hps is needed outside of burst requirements.

As everyone else has mentioned, it's unfortunate that so many RLs are clueless about how to identify a good healer. It holds their raids back, and discourages perfectly good healers who are told they're a problem for the raid.
Edited by Ellarix on 8/20/2013 11:19 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
17095
08/20/2013 10:31 AMPosted by Theodoruuk
Just seems like a statistic without much meaning.


The points you've provided really makes it seem so.

A good analysis of healing places emphasis on context. Just by looking at Recount's numbers alone, you have no context. It is just a cold, harsh metric.

However it is still a tool that can assist you in collecting the relevant information you may need or simply just desire.

That's pretty much all there is to it.
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90 Tauren Druid
8435

How does that work for Druids though? In my own guild raids I get terribly high overhealing numbers, and it seems I can attribute a lot of that to, like I said before, my HoTs being overwritten. To be simplistic, if there was 500 damage that needed healed and I have a HoT that heals 100 damage per second over five seconds, if left alone it would heal that 500 damage no problem. But, as is wont to happen, another healer casts a quick heal for 500 after one tick goes off, they get 400 healling and 100 overhealing, whereas my spell is now 100 healing and 400 overhealing by the time it wears off. Even though it easily could have healed the 500 by itself.


Complicated.
You need to be very fast @hotting a raid as a druid Addons like vuhdo, any mouseover crap keybinds etc are downright mandatory.
This, coupled with knowledge of fight mechanics, damage patterns and YOUR raid's movement patterns. These two things together allow a Resto druid to be ready and plan to have your burst heals ready to go off.

Example; Tortos, quake stomp inc 2seconds
Swiftmend yourself immediately PRE QUAKE.
Stomp + stun happens. Immediately;
Using SotF buff from your Sm from BEFORE stomp, WG ranged.
Bloom your fully charged shrooms on melee/tanks who should always be within 10 yards of each other during stomps.

Result = instantaneous 100% health for everyone in melee (hint, put yourself there too, because these like to overheal)
=Buffed WG on ranged + rolling RJ's.

Raid awareness + planning + timing = Your best chance to minimize being overshadowed by Absorbs.
Edited by Tonydanza on 8/20/2013 12:34 PM PDT
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92 Tauren Druid
Hex
15105
@Ellarix: That was about as good of a synopsis as I've read.

That's what I experienced in my two PUG Lei Shen attempts last night. Group 1 wiped several times, picked the lowest HPS, and asked them to kindly leave (me). I found Group 2, wiped only once (somone went to the wrong corner), and I kept on pace with the other two healers by the end while doing nothing terribly different myself. My HPS was similar at the beginning of each fight, but since we never got past the first intermission phase in Group 1, my numbers were stuck at that low level when they needed a quick excuse.

I guess it has to do a little with being a DPS for most all of my play time and switching over to heals. I was trying to find the same on the fly measurement of "how I'm doing." Not to judge others, but see my own performance. And I guess that is very hard to do a lot of times and you can only really get a full picture by doing a post mortem.

I guess I should just accept that I get kept around for my Tranquility ;)
Edited by Theodoruuk on 8/20/2013 12:56 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
I guess I should just accept that I get kept around for my Tranquility ;)


... and your kickass brez!

;D
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90 Pandaren Shaman
6925
Druids and Monks will almost always (and in the case of druids, have always) have the absolute most ridic overhealing, because of how hots work and because there is not a lot of need or even (depending on mechanics) possibility of allowing players to sit at any sort of health deficit to allow the hots to work.


I challenge any druid or monk to an overheal contest, lets do this.
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
I challenge any druid or monk to an overheal contest, lets do this.


/flex
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